Consanguity, fourth degree, and my marriage

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Ok I’ll start out by saying that I’m dealing with OCD/scruples. I was told that the church did not allow marriage of 4th cousins. I’ve been looking up stuff on this, and came up with this from another forum
Canon 1091.1 Marriage is invalid between those related by consanguinity in all degrees of the direct line, whether ascending or descending, legitimate or natural.
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Canon 1091.2 In the collateral line, it is invalid up to the fourth degree inclusive.
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Canon 1091.3 The impediment of consanguinity is not multiplied.
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Canon 1091.4 A marriage is never to be permitted if a doubt exists as to whether the parties are related by consanguinity in any degree of the direct line, or in the second degree of the collateral line.

Canon 1092 Affinity in any degree of the direct line invalidates marriage.

Canon 1093 The impediment of public propriety arises when a couple live together after an invalid marriage, or from a notorious or public concubinage. It invalidates marriage in the first degree of the direct line between the man and those related by consanguinity to the woman, and vice versa.

Canon 1094 Those who are legally related by reason of adoption cannot validly marry each other if their relationship is in the direct line or in the second degree of the collateral line.
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I have this worry that somehow my wife and I are related in the 4th degree, 4th cousins? Is “fourth degree” interpreted as 1st cousin now? Should I ask a priest about this or is it OK to just assume we are validly married and carry on as normal? I was my wife’s confirmation sponsor during her RCIA (prior to our marriage) is this any impediment? It looked like it might be an impediment according to one site. The site even seemed to imply sponsors must be of the same gender. Our parish priest wasn’t the most orthodox, so maybe we weren’t made aware of some impediment? I want to just assume everything is OK but I don’t want it to be sinful for me not to try and determine what my obligation is to straighten this matter out, and I don’t know if it’s sinful to assume the marriage is valid and enjoy all the emotional and physical priviledges of marriage until I have an answer.

Another fear is the words of the vow. We said “All the days of my life” as opposed to “til death do us part.” Now taken at face value it sounds like I will love and honor my wife all the days of MY life whether she is living or dead. Of course the understanding is the vows end with the death of a spouse. So to say one thing while meaning something else, is there anything wrong with that in terms of validity?
 
reclaimed said:
Ok I’ll start out by saying that I’m dealing with OCD/scruples. I was told that the church did not allow marriage of 4th cousins. I’ve been looking up stuff on this, and came up with this from another forum

I have this worry that somehow my wife and I are related in the 4th degree, 4th cousins? Is “fourth degree” interpreted as 1st cousin now? Should I ask a priest about this or is it OK to just assume we are validly married and carry on as normal? I was my wife’s confirmation sponsor during her RCIA (prior to our marriage) is this any impediment? It looked like it might be an impediment according to one site. The site even seemed to imply sponsors must be of the same gender. Our parish priest wasn’t the most orthodox, so maybe we weren’t made aware of some impediment? I want to just assume everything is OK but I don’t want it to be sinful for me not to try and determine what my obligation is to straighten this matter out, and I don’t know if it’s sinful to assume the marriage is valid and enjoy all the emotional and physical privileges of marriage until I have an answer.

Another fear is the words of the vow. We said “All the days of my life” as opposed to “til death do us part.” Now taken at face value it sounds like I will love and honor my wife all the days of MY life whether she is living or dead. Of course the understanding is the vows end with the death of a spouse. So to say one thing while meaning something else, is there anything wrong with that in terms of validity?
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Fourth Cousins is fine, it’s to second cousins that is the problem, also the no marriage between cousins can be dispensed

That’s fine.
 
I know it can be dispensed, but can it be “dispensed” after the fact? Like, if you get married but it’s unknowingly invalid because you had an impediment you weren’t aware of, does anything need to be done after the fact. Sorry my scruples lead to all kinds of mind games. Yes, I am getting help for them… well next Friday is my first appt with the psychiatrist.
 
Please speak to your priest as soon as possible to put your mind at ease.
I don’t think you will feel happy until you do that.
You were married in the Church were you not? If there had been a problem your priest would have told you then, but please do speak to your priest soonest possible for your peace of mind.
I will pray for you and your marriage.
God’s loving blessings to you.

catholicexchange.com/2010/09/09/134172/

The cousin relationship isn’t as some think

“As for second, third, and other cousins, however, their degree of consanguinity is farther removed — they are related in the fifth, sixth, and even further degrees of the collateral line. According to canon 1091, therefore, these cousins can get married in the Catholic Church.”
 
In the collateral line, it is invalid up to the fourth degree inclusive.
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Collateral to the fourth degree involves counting how many people are involved in the direct ancestry to the person.

So let’s look at an example. An uncle and a niece. The uncle’s brother is the nieces father. (Uncle, brother, niece) That is a collateral relationship to the third degree.

So to the fourth degree would apply to a first cousin for instance.

My mom’s brothers daughter, (me, my mom, my uncle, my 1st cousin) is a 4th degree relationship.

A 4th cousin, would be something to the effect of (and you’ll have to use your own relationship to count, but it should be similar; there are many ways to have a 4th cousin) two people who share the same great-great-great Grandparent. Now just counting your mother, grandparent, great grandparent, great great grandparent is already a 4th degree. So 4th cousins should be something to the point of 9th degree of collateral kinship.

There is an article on CatholicExchange that goes into more detail: Can Cousins Marry
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
Fourth Cousins is fine, it’s to second cousins that is the problem, also the no marriage between cousins can be dispensed

That’s fine.
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Clarification, you can not marry your first counsin without a dispensation, but you can marry your second cousin without a dispensation.
 
reclaimed said:
Ok I’ll start out by saying that I’m dealing with
OCD/scruples.
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Please make sure you get yourself under the care of a spiritual director and/or priest trained to help people with scrupulosity.
reclaimed said:
was told that the church did not allow marriage of 4th cousins.
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“Told” by whom? By someone who does not know what they are talking about.

The current code of canon law prohibits consanguity in the collateral line to the 4th degree. That is not the same thing as fourth cousins.
reclaimed said:
I’ve been looking up stuff on this, and came up with this from another forum
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One must understand how to count the degrees.

Canon 108 §3 states that in the collateral line, there are as many degrees as there are persons in both lines together, not counting the common ancestor.

Fourth cousins would have the following family tree

Great-Great-Great Grandparents, Common ancestor, not counted
Great-Great Grandparents, Siblings to one another (1 and 2)
Great Grandparents, First Cousins (3 and 4)
Grandparents, Second Cousins (5 and 6)
Parents, Third Cousins (7 and 8)
Couple seeking marriage, Fourth Cousins (9 and 10)

They are related in the 10th degree. They have no impediment.
reclaimed said:
I have this worry that somehow my wife and I are related in the 4th degree, 4th cousins?
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Fourth degree and fourth cousins are not the same thing.
reclaimed said:
Is “fourth degree” interpreted as 1st cousin now?
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Yes.
reclaimed said:
Should I ask a priest about this or is it OK to just assume we are validly married and carry on as normal?
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You are validly married.
reclaimed said:
I was my wife’s confirmation sponsor during her RCIA (prior to our marriage) is this any impediment? It looked like it might be an impediment according to one site.
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The impediment of spiritual relationship existed in the Latin Rite Code of Canon Law of 1917. It does not exist in the 1983 code. It also applied to baptismal sponsor not confirmation sponsor.
reclaimed said:
The site even seemed to imply sponsors must be of the same gender.
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Don’t know what site you were looking at. This is not correct under the code of 1983. It might have been true under an older code, not sure.
reclaimed said:
Our parish priest wasn’t the most orthodox, so maybe we weren’t made aware of some impediment?
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This is your scrupulosity talking. The priest prepared your for marriage properly.
reclaimed said:
I want to just assume everything is OK but I don’t want it to be sinful for me not to try and determine what my obligation is to straighten this matter out, and I don’t know if it’s sinful to assume the marriage is valid and enjoy all the emotional and physical priviledges of marriage until I have an answer.
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There is no matter to straighten out. Your scrupulosity is at work. Get help for that. Trust that your priest knew what he was doing when he prepared you for marriage. Stop second guessing him and giving yourself an anxiety attack.
reclaimed said:
Another fear is the words of the vow. We said “All the days of my life” as opposed to “til death do us part.” Now taken at face value it sounds like I will love and honor my wife all the days of MY life whether she is living or dead. Of course the understanding is the vows end with the death of a spouse. So to say one thing while meaning something else, is there anything wrong with that in terms of validity?
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NO.

Stop it and get help.

First of all, you recited the vows prescribed in the Rite.
Secondly, it is not the vows that make the marriage. Vows are not strictly necessary. It is the* exchange of consent*-- which happens when the priest asks you if you have come freely to marry, accept children, etc.-- NOT the vows.

Again, this is scrupulosity at work
 
I just wanted to point something out.
Another fear is the words of the vow. We said “All the days of my life” as opposed to “til death do us part.” Now taken at face value it sounds like I will love and honor my wife all the days of MY life whether she is living or dead. Of course the understanding is the vows end with the death of a spouse. So to say one thing while meaning something else, is there anything wrong with that in terms of validity?
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Why would your wife’s death remove your love for her? It would free you to marry another, but I know that if my wife died I’d still love her, all the days of my life. I wouldn’t suddenly be ‘free from loving her.’
 
In the Catholic Encyclopedia it says
Except for marriage, the canon law follows regularly the computation of the civil law, e.g. in the question of inheritance. But the Canon law, in the collateral line of consanguinity, computes for marriage one series only of generations, and if the series are unequal, only the longer one. Hence the principle of canon law that in the transverse or collateral line there are as many degrees of consanguinity as there are persons in the longer series, omitting the common stock or root. If the two series are equal, the distance is the number of degrees of either from the common stock. Thus brother and sister are in the first degree, first cousins in the second degree; uncle and niece in the second degree because the niece is two degrees from the grandfather who is the common stock.
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–newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm

Is that old Canon Law?
 
reclaimed;8792070:
In the Catholic Encyclopedia it says

–newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm

Is that old Canon Law?
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Yes, the Catholic Encyclopedia you are quoting was written at the beginning of the 20th century. While it is a good source of historical reference, it is NOT a source for anything pertaining to canon law.
 
But what if I DON’T love and honor after she has passed?.. I am worrying too much.

I also worry about lust within marriage, if my desire is to be with her or for pleasure. Lust would be when you treat her as if she was anyone else, just someone to sleep with, correct? She has a pleasure problem, I guess you could say, and while we both enjoy foreplay to an extent (me much more, I think), the actual act is mostly about me. I feel guilty about this, she seems to be OK with where we’re at, but I don’t want to be committing the sin of lust with her.
 
reclaimed said:
But what if I DON’T love and honor after she has passed?.. I am worrying too much.
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Stop it. Get ahold of yourself and get spiritual direction for your scrupulosity.
reclaimed said:
I also worry about lust within marriage, if my desire is to be with her or for pleasure. Lust would be when you treat her as if she was anyone else, just someone to sleep with, correct? She has a pleasure problem, I guess you could say, and while we both enjoy foreplay to an extent (me much more, I think), the actual act is mostly about me. I feel guilty about this, she seems to be OK with where we’re at, but I don’t want to be committing the sin of lust with her.
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you are not lusting when you desire intimacy with your wife. You need spiritual guidance and we cannot give that here.

You need to tell your priest about your scrupulosity and get professional help.
 
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