Conscience - Aboriginal Vicar of Christ

[HomeschoolDad]

The church has acknowledged that the conscience is the aboriginal vicar of Christ.

No, that was what Cardinal Newman said. Venerable though he is, he is not “the Church”.

The conscience is primary and inalienable.

Yes, and in our fallen human nature, that conscience has to be conformed to objective truth, which is the Catholic Faith. Are all “primary” consciences identical? Do they all come to the same conclusions and regard the same things as true? Clearly not. Is truth divided?

The Church is not a democracy, Catholicism is not democracy, and Christianity is not democracy.

No, the bishops represent Jesus Christ. The Catholic Faith and the truths that this faith contains do not come up from the people, they come down from Christ. It is the task of the faithful to listen, learn, and obey. What is jumping out at me here, is an analogy to the American error (yes, error) that governments derive their sovereignty from the consent of the governed.

The bishops and others will deliberate on a matter, a document will begin to be drafted, and the bishops will literally vote on certain wording to be included or excluded from said document. Wording will sometimes be voted down. This is all well documented from Vatican 2.

Yes, and they are under the protection of the Holy Spirit, Who ensures that the Church will never teach error.

I would like to point out to you that it is your conscience that has enabled the possibility of something like the “body of Christ” existing on Earth (the church).

No, the sum of the consciences of the faithful do not enable the Body of Christ to exist. Christ Himself established His Church.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

And you cannot infallibly know that the church is Christ’s body. It is a belief that you hold. It is a reasonable belief but not a necessary truth.

I believe in Jesus Christ and what He taught. No, it cannot be proven from reason, if that’s what you mean. It is a truth of revelation.

Also, as I noted above, the church has changed her views on not a few important matters over the centuries, to include slavery, usury, marriage and capital punishment.

Changed her views, yes. Changed eternal truths, no. “Slavery”, for instance, has taken many different forms throughout human history. It has not always been as simple as one man taking possession of another one by force, having the power of life and death over him, having the full and lifelong claim on all of his labor and earnings, and being able to dictate his every action for the rest of the slave’s life. The Church addressed different situations at different times. “Usury”, for instance, differs with the type of the economy and the nature of money within that economy. (Not clear what you mean by “marriage”, so I’ll leave that one alone.) Capital punishment, it is theoretically permissible but inadmissible in modern circumstances (ability to punish justly without resorting to death). And so on.

One, that bishops must be in a unison of belief on a particular teaching for that particular teaching to require the fullest expression of free assent from the faithful. And two, it needs to be accepted by the consciences of the faithful laity in somewhat of the same manner as it is accepted by the consciences of the bishops.

If you are referring to the Church’s teaching on birth regulation, the bishops and the laity were in unison about it for a long, long time. Then new methods of birth control became available, and quite frankly, people wanted to use them. A few bishops probably did waver. Many laity certainly did. Nothing changed except that a new thing came along, it was enticing, it promised to make life easier, Catholics saw others using it and not being troubled in conscience about it, and they wanted to use it too. That’s not “conscience”. That’s wanting to be free to do something. Two different things. The serpent managed to convince Eve that there was nothing wrong with eating the fruit. She took his word for it. For a moment, anyway, her conscience told her it was okay. Look what happened.

The Church is not a democracy, Catholicism is not democracy, and Christianity is not democracy

How? And yes, I know what a “straw man” is.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

the truths of Catholicism do not depend upon the consent of the faithful.

What the Catholic Faith teaches as being true — the Church’s doctrinal, dogmatic, and moral teachings. And “some” teachings depend upon consent of the faithful? Which ones? Why do some depend on this consent, and others do not?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

How? And yes, I know what a “straw man” is.

It’s s straw man because I didn’t say that the Church was a democracy.

What the Catholic Faith teaches as being true — the Church’s doctrinal, dogmatic, and moral teachings. And “some” teachings depend upon consent of the faithful? Which ones? Why do some depend on this consent, and others do not?

I’ll assume you mean the magisterium when you say “the Catholic Faith”.

The faithful includes bishops and laity and everyone in between. So, technically all teachings require the consent of the faithful. But by “some” I was referring to the non infallible teachings.

In addition to the “faithful” being bishops and laity, the relationship between the two needs to be considered.

The death penalty is a good recent example - the “faithful”, (using this term loosely here to make the point) ie not bishops but laity, have run the prison system throughout the world, and largely the fields of sociology, criminology, and government. The Church has discerned from the advancement in knowledge of these fields some things that needed to be applied to its teaching on the death penalty.

That brings me to my next, tangential, point. When I mentioned the “faithful” being the ones who primarily run prisons, and certain fields of study - you may have thought that non-Catholics probably make up the majority of the people who run those things. Which leads to a question - does the “faithful” include those people outside of the visible Church who do the will of God?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Interestingly enough, every time my conscience speaks up it is because I did not follow teaching of the Church (and boy does is have enough occasions for that). From moment I converted I chose to accept Church as my conscience. There is certain predisposition for certain sins but conscience never fails to warn me of them as sins. Sexual sins you described above are prime example of that too. Even if (I wish lol) my conscience were properly formed, that does not mean I always submit to it. Sometimes I silence it too… sadly.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Since we are created in the image and likeness of GOD, our conscience;
unless someone with a full act of the will refused Grace, whereby
that persons inner disposition would always be at enmity with GOD;
has the ability to listen to the Law of God written on every heart.
We as Disciples of Jesus Christ, with all due diligence; with the best assertive
creativity we each are able to muster; are called to live holy joyful moral lives.
Pray, and converse The Good News as best we can, to whomever we can.
We weren’t born in a vacuum, we have The Divine Revelation through The Church.
_
Since the fall of humanity in primordial humankind; we have an Adversary
to contend with. “Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” - 1 Peter 5:8
“For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not from the Father but from the world. The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever.” - 1 John 2:16-17
“And he [JESUS] called the people to him again and said to them, ‘Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.’” - Mark 7:14-15 " And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” Mark 7:20-23
_
Without the help of The Church, as we are supposed to be a family in Jesus Christ;
relying on one’s own conscience is extremely dangerous to one’s ever lasting life.
_
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
‘Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.’
'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
‘Watch out for false prophets.’ They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them." - Matthew 7:7-15
__(cont…)

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Be very careful of the ambiguity regarding the universal call to holiness.
Obviously the world is now given over to wide spread radical secular humanist moral relativist culture of death. Many times enacting policies to give license to further the status quo or make it worse. Rights of conscience to avoid participation routinely oppressed. The wide spread indoctrination of youth and impressionable be force to be taught emotional based justifications to grave moral evil - rather than seek help. There is a lot of accommodating those who powerfully influence these things. We must remember
Jesus Christ’s warnings. Like if my eye, hand, or foot causes me to sin, cut it off;
because it would be better to enter into Heaven maimed, than damnation whole.
We need that powerful hyperbole these days. And remember, some because of their own intellect, leaning upon their own understanding; convey being wise; but lack the simplicity of wisdom - appearing to be good and kind; worship, fast & pray, give tithes & offerings, alms to the poor or champion the poor - but JESUS said that they lacked justice & mercy. Also that they were white washed tombs full of all manner of corruption.
“Therefore beloved, as you expect these things, take pains that you shall be found without spot and without defect before him in peace.” - 2 Peter 3:14

 

[HomeschoolDad]

How? And yes, I know what a “straw man” is.

I simply meant to clear up any potential ambiguity by saying, in effect, “for one thing, let’s make sure we’re clear on this, the Church is not a democracy”.

I’ll assume you mean the magisterium when you say “the Catholic Faith”.

I do refer to what has been consistently and perennially taught by the magisterium, i.e., the Pope and those bishops in union with him. The laity are not part of the magisterium. They do not teach, they are taught. The magisterium teaches, and the people accept. The bishops, priests, and laity do not agree and come to a consensus about what is to be believed or not. That said, though, I will concede that the entire Church will never agree on error — the Holy Spirit protects against that. But that is not the same as a large portion of the laity in a certain part of the world, along with some (or even many) priests and possibly even a handful of bishops, waking up one morning (figuratively speaking), saying “we don’t agree with this teaching anymore” — and this is precisely what happened with Humanae vitae — and then being able to say “there is no consent of the faithful, so it’s not a binding teaching”. They lost their belief in a teaching of the Catholic Church. Some would say that they are no longer Catholic. I wouldn’t go that far — I would call it more of a temerarious dissent from a hitherto consistently taught and accepted moral doctrine — but others would say, and have said, precisely that.

When I mentioned the “faithful” being the ones who primarily run prisons, and certain fields of study - you may have thought that non-Catholics probably make up the majority of the people who run those things. Which leads to a question - does the “faithful” include those people outside of the visible Church who do the will of God?

No, that was not my thought process at all. And no, I do not think of those outside the visible Church as being part of the “faithful”. As individuals, no doubt many of them are united to the soul of the Church, but they are not Catholic laypeople.

 

[EndTimes]

So, how far are we to go with the conscience? Is there any sense in which we can go “beyond” the conscience?

Why?

Our Conscience is akin to where God’s Spirit speaks to us… ?

Akin to where God’s laws are written in/on our “heart”?

_

 

[AlNg]

It is our responsibility to take the steps to form a proper conscience.

The question is though, what is a proper conscience. For example, most churches will allow contraception for married couples with four or five children and who are facing financial difficulties. They will cite the unitive aspects of marriage, the financial difficulties and hardships of a large family, the high cost of housing, medical care, higher education and as well the requirement of being good stewards of the environment and the danger of Global warming and the Climate crisis. And we hear rumblings originating in Germany about a push by some Catholic clergy to re-evaluate the teaching on contraception.
And there are other questions which have come up historically in past venues such as does a proper conscience allow for the burning alive at the stake and in public of people who have disagreements with some Catholic teachings?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

And there are other questions which have come up historically in past venues such as does a proper conscience allow for the burning alive at the stake and in public of people who have disagreements with some Catholic teachings?

I would encourage anyone who wants to burn dissenters at the stake to read Dignitatis humanae, but also, anyone who wants to learn more about what the Church teaches about the conscience will benefit.

As a Council Declaration, DH is an important document from which the Encyclicals and Exhortations which have come after it can be read in light of it:

1. A sense of the dignity of the human person has been impressing itself more and more deeply on the consciousness of contemporary man,(1) and the demand is increasingly made that men should act on their own judgment, enjoying and making use of a responsible freedom, not driven by coercion but motivated by a sense of duty.
   …
   This Vatican Council likewise professes its belief that it is upon the human conscience that these obligations fall and exert their binding force. The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with power.

 

[AlNg]

I would encourage anyone who wants to burn dissenters at the stake to read Dignitatis humanae ,

This is a more recent teaching. But did it apply to past venues in areas such as the Papal States?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

The magisterium teaches, and the people accept.

That’s really not what the Church itself teaches. And it’s kind of the crux of this thread, that the laity are not sheeple, but have a role to play in the Church as somewhat of a ‘canary in the mine’ so to speak.

You can read the post above regarding Dignitatis humanae which certainly doesn’t give the impression that “the Church teaches and the people accept”.

 

[GLam1761]

I agree whole-heartedly w/ what you are getting at. Martin Luther tried
it, that is, to reduce the revelation of Jesus’ Teachings to the Scriptures
AND one’s personal CONSCIENCE, however, one must understand that
MARTIN’S was a FORMED conscience, being a former Catholic priest!!

 

[Dovekin]

the bishops represent Jesus Christ. The Catholic Faith and the truths that this faith contains do not come up from the people, they come down from Christ. It is the task of the faithful to listen, learn, and obey. What is jumping out at me here, is an analogy to the American error (yes, error) that governments derive their sovereignty from the consent of the governed.

Papal infallibility was defined in terms of the infallibility of the faith of the Church, from the smallest member to the greatest. Only when the Magisterium expresses that faith is it being true to its commission. It is the task of the bishops to listen, learn, and obey what God says to the faithful, to bring it back to the question of conscience. The Holy Spirit accompanies every Christian; why would a bishop or priest not listen to what that Spirit is saying?

As a side comment, that I have no wish to discuss, the Greek word ekklesia, which is used by Latin based languages for Church, was originally used of the governing assembly of Athens, the birthplace of democracy. I do not think the Church is a democracy, but there are similarities…

 

[GLam1761]

The concept that the teachings of the RCC should reflect
that of it’s members can be seen in the Bishop Conferences
in recent times under Pope Francis, esp. the one on Family
Matters, it was an ATTEMPT by the Church to placate it’s
members on the Interpretation of the Magisterium and stood
the Church in GOOD will w/ the Catholic membership!!

 

[Dovekin]

In addition to DH, John Paul II’s Veritatis Splendor Describes conscience and its role in our morality.

And Benedict XVI, in his 2005 Christmas message to the Cardinals, gives an excellent statement of the perennial belief of the Church in religious freedom:

The martyrs of the early Church died for their faith in that God who was revealed in Jesus Christ, and for this very reason they also died for freedom of conscience and the freedom to profess one’s own faith - a profession that no State can impose but which, instead, can only be claimed with God’s grace in freedom of conscience. A missionary Church known for proclaiming her message to all peoples must necessarily work for the freedom of the faith. She desires to transmit the gift of the truth that exists for one and all.

It was never right to kill people for professing their faith, not even if they were heretics.

 

[mythbuster1]

Which is no surprise, because human reasoning is afflicted by sin. Well meaning people can come to erroneous conclusions because they fail to consider relevant facts.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Thank GOD in Christ JESUS Beloved Redeemer for those who learned for themselves apart from the polemics, propaganda, seeming logic of the middle ages regarding the Protestant separatists. Dr. David Anders did not intend to become part of the One Holy and Apostolic Church which was given the authority to interpret Holy Scripture.
He was doing a paper out of Godly Love of Jesus Christ in Seminary. It led him to the Apostles and non cherry picked Apostolic (contemporaries of The Apostles) Fathers,
Early Church Fathers and so on.
Peace of JESUS Christ which surpasses all only human understanding, where even a formed conscience can be led astray by private interpretation.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Amen. Peace. Thank you.
So many Church teachers speak on this like former anti-Catholic Biblical Scholar Dr. Scott Hahn. Even how Paul’s writing in Corinthians regarding mutual fasting between a husband and wife, can apply The Holy Spiritual virtue of self control between periods of romantic spontaneity. I know some ‘hollywood’ type ideas on ‘spontaneity’ would say, ‘ridiculous.’
The Church Teaches natural family planning that teaches to welcome a possible child.
When properly used; whereby times of romantic spontaneity give way to Holy Spirit self control by the natural cycles GOD gave us. And this type of natural Godly concern for number of children is more effective than harmful spermicides and hormones.
Not only that, wherever artificial contraception is accepted the ‘against conception’
mentality fosters a not welcoming a child mentality and child killing by abortion climbs.
Jesus Beloved Savior said judge a tree by it’s fruit.
Not only that, serial monogamy increases, striving between form suitors, youth and impressionable more likely to engage in unhealthy cheating on future spouse behavior;
infidelity, divorce, and many other bad fruits of the atmosphere of separating the two main purpose of Holy Matrimonial Conjugal expression, procreation and proper joyful marital pleasure. The Godly self giving becomes a deliberate act to made one part artificially sterile and barren. Very sad, but true by the preponderance of the evidence.
Humanae Vitae spoke on this. Paul vi in retrospect thought it should have been name something like The Charity of Marriage. It is a beautifully written document; much more than just showing the virtue of GOD’s natural means of helping Providence in the number of children.
_
One time Dr. Scott Hahn, a Biblical former anti-Catholic scholar on EWTN offered Biblical texts. Since spermicides and hormones are intrinsically harmful they can be likened to ‘sorcery’ which used potions (see below) even in the following:
“Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
~
By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.” - Galatians 5:16-26
___________Cont…