Conscience issues...

[Thoughtfulone]

O.K., so I’ve been having some issues with the CC lately. I agree with the CC on most things. The Nicene creed reflects my beliefs accurately. However, there are certain things where we part ways. For example, the CC might say that one particular “sin” involves “grave matter”, making it a mortal sin, when my conscience tells me that a certain act does not rise to that level, if sinful at all (contraception is a good example, especially where the health of the mother is at stake). I also disagree with the CC regarding indulgences. I think the idea that the Church knows what actions grant partial or plenary indulgences is strange to say the least.

Anyway, the CC basically says that if I disagree with them on matters of conscience, then my conscience is improperly formed. O.K. So I go about trying to adjust my conscience through prayer, research and reflection and still that darned conscience is awfully stubborn. Now what? Well, some tell me that I need to practice the virtue of obedience and just do what the CC says regardless (this rings untrue to me, blindly following something I may not believe in) while others say that church teaching tells me that I am obligated to follow my conscience (which sounds right to me). Well, I can’t do both, obviously. I love my Church, I really do, but I am having much difficulty reconciling myself to this issue.

Also, If my conscience really tells me that something is not sinful (or at least mortally so) because I do not truly believe it to fall under “grave matter” after MUCH prayer and reflection, then am I still in a state of mortal sin if I follow my own conscience on the matter and not church teaching? I mean, I am not deliberately committing a mortal sin right, so the conditions are not met? Or are they? I am so confused!

I love my Church, but I am feeling increasingly frustrated. I cannot CONTROL my conscience, I can only do my due diligence in trying to form it in accordance with God’s will, which I believe I am doing/have done, but people on this site and others seem to have a mentality where if you don’t follow every SINGLE thing the Church says, conscience or no, you are some sort of ****** Catholic and you might as well just join the baptists or something. Well I still consider myself to be a Catholic in all the ways that are truly important and I love my Church and I love God, so now what?

 

[Stylites]

Sadly there are many people who adhere to the Catholic label because of reasons other than faith and morals. “Cultural Catholics” is one term used to describe them. If the Church teaches that a certain act is a grave sin, then it would behoove one to find out why the Church so teaches, if there’s any conflict or confusion. Certainly following one’s own conscience is a must, but it must be an informed conscience rather than just one’s gut feelings or what one was taught by secular professors in college.

I am not an apologist, but I believe in the case of contraception which you stated, the Church teaches that any barrier between the full union of husband and wife thwarts God’s plan for marriage, as couples need to be open to the possibility of life, and artificial means to prevent that full union make a mockery of marriage and hence of Christ and His bride the Church. I believe I remember reading about a health exception to this general ban on artificial contraception, and perhaps another member might inform us on that issue.

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[thistle]

O.K., so I’ve been having some issues with the CC lately. I agree with the CC on most things. The Nicene creed reflects my beliefs accurately. However, there are certain things where we part ways. For example, the CC might say that one particular “sin” involves “grave matter”, making it a mortal sin, when my conscience tells me that a certain act does not rise to that level, if sinful at all (contraception is a good example, especially where the health of the mother is at stake). I also disagree with the CC regarding indulgences. I think the idea that the Church knows what actions grant partial or plenary indulgences is strange to say the least.

Anyway, the CC basically says that if I disagree with them on matters of conscience, then my conscience is improperly formed. O.K. So I go about trying to adjust my conscience through prayer, research and reflection and still that darned conscience is awfully stubborn. Now what? Well, some tell me that I need to practice the virtue of obedience and just do what the CC says regardless (this rings untrue to me, blindly following something I may not believe in) while others say that church teaching tells me that I am obligated to follow my conscience (which sounds right to me). Well, I can’t do both, obviously. I love my Church, I really do, but I am having much difficulty reconciling myself to this issue.

Also, If my conscience really tells me that something is not sinful (or at least mortally so) because I do not truly believe it to fall under “grave matter” after MUCH prayer and reflection, then am I still in a state of mortal sin if I follow my own conscience on the matter and not church teaching? I mean, I am not deliberately committing a mortal sin right, so the conditions are not met? Or are they? I am so confused!

I love my Church, but I am feeling increasingly frustrated. I cannot CONTROL my conscience, I can only do my due diligence in trying to form it in accordance with God’s will, which I believe I am doing/have done, but people on this site and others seem to have a mentality where if you don’t follow every SINGLE thing the Church says, conscience or no, you are some sort of ****** Catholic and you might as well just join the baptists or something. Well I still consider myself to be a Catholic in all the ways that are truly important and I love my Church and I love God, so now what?

A Catholic who rejects one or more of the Church teachings commits heresy and if such a person dies unrepentent then they condemn themselves to Hell.

 

[Mark77]

**Remember what Jesus did when faced with difficulty;

"And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (Mt 26:39)

Pray for the humility & patience to accept Church teaching, even if your understanding is incomplete! We will never understand everything until we see the Face of God!**

**The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us clearly about contraception;

"Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality. (CCC2370)**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I was a dissenting Catholic for many years…errrr…decades actually. The Church’s doctrine regarding contraception was one of the points I use to dissent with. So I understand what you are going through.

Holy Scripture says to “Test everything, hold fast what is good” (1 Thess 5:21). It’s a good rule to live by. However, the NT Greek word for “test” (dokimazo) does not mean “doubt” or “be skeptical” but instead literally means “prove.” So, we are called upon to prove all things. How do we do this?

It dawned upon me that everything Christian, that is, the entire deposit of Christian faith is dependent upon the trustworthy witness of the Catholic Church. Everything, even Holy Scripture. It was all “handed on” to us from the Catholic Church. Martin Luther himself admitted, “We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists [Catholics]–that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.” (Luther, Commentary on St. John, ch. 16).

Consequently, if everything about the Christian deposit of faith comes through Catholic tradition (i.e., that which was “handed on”), then it seems a profound lack of integrity to trust Catholic tradition while at the same time distrusting Catholic tradition. If the Holy Spirit guides the faithful to all truth, then it must have done so in every century since the advent of Christ. So it seems that if I was going to choose to bind myself to something greater than me, such as Catholic tradition, I could only do so with integrity. In other words, I had to go “all in” or else I was really living a hypocritical existence devoid of authentic integrity, both trusting and mistrusting the witness of Cathoic tradition at the same time. I was compelled by my conscience to live a life of integrity. This left me with two choices: be Catholic or stop pretending.

So, why didn’t I simply stop calling myself Catholic and invent a heresy of my own making? Why’d I go the other direction and freely choose to bind myself to something greater than myself? Was it a blind choice, or did I seek to “prove all things”?

It was not a blind decision, but one that took a great amount of prayer and study over many decades, thrusting myself into an in-depth study all of the major world religions and even the leading irreligious ideologies. I used what I like to call “calculatus eliminatus.” In other words, after studying all the world religions, I was unconvinced by the alternatives to Christianity, to include so-called irreligious ideologies. I concluded much like Peter did in the following passage from St. John’s Gospel: *"Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Do you also wish to go away?’ Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; *and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.’" (John 6:67-69)

The word “religion” derives from the Latin word religare, which means literally to bind oneself, as in the act of freely binding oneself to something greater. I came to the conclusion that my own meager talents were not infallible, and that it was profoundly reasonable (not “blind”) to bind myself to that wisdom which has prevailed throughout the ages, particularly that Christian wisdom present in every century since the advent of Christ. That wisdom has been handed on to us solely through Catholic tradition, which is of course always guided by the Holy Spirit. That tradition is something worthy of investigation. It has been “tested” more than any other. I finally proved to myself that the so-called “antiquated dogmas” of Catholic tradition are only called “antiquated” because they are the only dogmas reasonable enough to have lasted so long.

In any field of study, we only come to believe in something by three forms of evidence: 1) Experience, 2) Reason, and 3) Testimony. It is the evaluation of these three forms of evidence that allow us to “believe.” This is the “stuff” that must be tested. (note: in Christian “belief” the guidance of the Holy Spirit is part of our experience). Many have different capability to “reason,” are exposed to different “testimony” and also have differing “experience” in life, so it is no wonder that there are many “beliefs.” The goal for each of us is to conform our beliefs to that which is “true”, that is, that which “corresponds to reality.”

The only way to test or prove anything is through test our reason, experience and testimony to discern whether it corresponds to reality, then “hold fast to what is good” (1 Thess 5:21).

If you would like help in “testing” one or more Catholic doctrines, whether it is contraception or any other, let me know. It doesn’t take blind faith to form one’s concience properly. But is does take humilty.

Christ said of those he appointed to teach in his name, “He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me.” (Lk 10:16). After decades of dissent, I resolved to “listen to the Church” (Matt 18:17) and only then did “metanoia” result. If metanoia never resulted, and I continued to bind myself to Catholic tradition, I’d be a blind fool.

It seemed that if I’m going to be a Christian with integrity, I had to go “all in.” Christ Himself built a Church on the rock of Peter, and said of this Church “he who rejects you, rejects me.” This passage is a sobering one which establishes an clear obligation for all the faithful to “obey your leaders and submit to them” (Heb 13:17). I don’t bind myself to the Church blindly, but reasonably, because of the authority with which the Church speaks. An authority I found no where else in my search for truth.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Thanks for your responses! Unfortunately, I still feel like I am getting the runaround Part of this is because I think that the Church’s logic on this matter is circular. I have read VOLUMES on why the CC says contraception is wrong. I get it. But there are areas where I disagree. Now I have prayed about it, studied about it, read about it, etc. According to what everyone here seems to think, some little bell should go “ding!” and I will suddenly see the light. Well, that hasn’t happened. So now what am I to do? I don’t have the time or resources to go out and get a PhD in Catholic theology or to join a nunnery and spend 12 hours a day in prayer. I have a family to raise! So, if my conscience does not change on a matter where I disagree with the CC (and let’s not limit this to a discussion on contraception, that was merely an example to illustrate a point, not a huge point of contention for me specifically) and I am BOUND (according to the CC) to follow my conscience, then I am a heretic and going to Hell anyway? But If I just submit to the teaching of the CC, thus going against my understanding of what God has revealed to me through his Word and through personal prayer and reflection, then I am going against what my conscience specifically tells me is right and so i go to Hell, or is the CC going to tell me that as long as I follow their rules, even if it goes against what I truly believe in my heart to be right that I am in the clear? Does anyone else see a problem with this?

Let’s continue with a very extreme example of the contraception issue: let’s say that i am a mother of 6. If I have another child, i will 100% die. My husband is out of a job and I am the sole support of the family. Although we do not want to, we are using condoms along with NFP to give us the best chance of not getting pregnant. If I do, I will die and my family will be scattered to the winds among various foster families and my husband will be homeless. The CC tells me that contraception is INTRINSICALLY evil, meaning there is no justification EVER for its use. After much reflection, study and prayer, my conscience tells me that my obligation is to my family, to care for them, be there for them and maintain a loving marital relationship with my husband, so I choose to go against Church teaching but to follow my conscience. I am a heretic and going to Hell?

Like I said, this is not about the contraception issue per se, but about this attitude in general. It’s like the CC is saying to me “Follow your conscience.” i say “OK, but it’s telling me to do ABC”. Then the CC says, “Then your conscience is wrong. Fix it.” So I put in this huge amount of effort into deepening my understanding of the issue and in praying to God and listening to my heart and I say “My conscience is really still telling me ABC” and the CC says, “Then just do what we say” and I say, “Well, what about my conscience?” And the CC says, “Well, we want you to follow it, but we want you to do what we say” and I say which is more important? And then I hear crickets. What is a person to do?

 

[o_mlly]

A Catholic who rejects one or more of the Church teachings commits heresy and if such a person dies unrepentent then they condemn themselves to Hell.

One who accepts God’s grace (God’s self-communication), conforms his conscience to God’s will, his intellect to his conscience, and his will and passions to his intellect. This is often a process rather than an event.

If one is in the process of stuggling, then as Cardinal Newman said, "“Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt … ".

If, however, one has struggled and rejected a defined infallible teaching of the Church, one may still find salvation if they are truly invincibly ignorant.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…So, if my conscience does not change on a matter where I disagree with the CC…and I am BOUND (according to the CC) to follow my conscience, then I am a heretic and going to Hell anyway?

Conscience is not infallible but is instead a voice among many. While we are bound to follow our certain conscience, we may not stop informing that conscience.

Also, even when one follows their certain but erroneous conscience, doing so can very well lead to damnation, not because one obeyed a certain conscience, but because the one doing so may indeed be culpable (and blinded) for a prior sin, or perhaps through omitting to properly inform the conscience, or the sin of obstinantly refusing religious submission to Divinely appointed authority. Korah followed his erroneous conscience and it didn’t end well for him (cf. Num 16). This is warned against in the NT (cf. Jude 11). There is such a thing as “hardness of heart” which is itself a punishment from God for prior sin.

But If I just submit to the teaching of the CC, thus going against my understanding of what God has revealed to me through his Word and through personal prayer and reflection, then I am going against what my conscience specifically tells me is right and so i go to Hell

“Going against my understanding…” is the key phrase. The Church does not teach that an individual’s personal understanding must precede faith, but instead teaches that faith precedes understanding. If one is to seek humility, one ought to ask themselves if their own understanding is more trustworthy than the wisdom of the faithful saint throughout the ages, taught in every century since the advent of Christ.

While the Church does teach that you can go to hell by following your erroneous and certain conscience, the Church does not teach that you can go to hell by giving one’s religious submission of mind and will to the governance and teachings of the Divinely appointed authority.

For example, according to Thomas a’ Kempis’ The Imitation of Christ:

It is a very great thing to obey, to live under a superior and not to be one’s own master, for it is much safer to be subject than it is to command. Many live in obedience more from necessity than from love. Such become discontented and dejected on the slightest pretext; they will never gain peace of mind unless they subject themselves wholeheartedly for the love of God.

Go where you may, you will find no rest except in humble obedience to the rule of authority. Dreams of happiness expected from change and different places have deceived many.

Everyone, it is true, wishes to do as he pleases and is attracted to those who agree with him. But if God be among us, we must at times give up our opinions for the blessings of peace.

Furthermore, who is so wise that he can have full knowledge of everything? Do not trust too much in your own opinions, but be willing to listen to those of others. If, though your own be good, you accept another’s opinion for love of God, you will gain much more merit; for I have often heard that it is safer to listen to advice and take it than to give it. It may happen, too, that while one’s own opinion may be good, refusal to agree with others when reason and occasion demand it, is a sign of pride and obstinacy.

We have free will, but that does not mean that our free choices are consequence-free.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

… is the CC going to tell me that as long as I follow their rules, even if it goes against what I truly believe in my heart to be right that I am in the clear? Does anyone else see a problem with this?

Regarding what the Catholic Church teaches, Christ has affirmed, “He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects your, rejects me. He who rejects me, rejects the Father that sent me.” (Lk 10:16). Christ also taught regarding the authority given to His Church, “whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt 16:19). If I’m to be a Bible believing Christian at all, I have to be a Church believing Christian.

What people “truly believe” can often be contrary to the truth, contrary to Christ and his Church, and such beliefs, even if “sincere,” are sincerely wrong, and can lead to hell. As stated already, you are free to trust the witness of your own erroneous conscience over the Church, “pillar and foundation of truth,” or not. But whatever choice you make, you are responsible for the consequences.

Let’s continue with a very extreme example of the contraception issue: let’s say that i am a mother of 6. If I have another child, i will 100% die.

I have personally known many people who were told they were going to “100% die” if they gave birth, and yet they chose to give birth and did not die.

However, if “100% die” is accurate, the only reasonal response is dont’ have sex.
The only contraception that will not fail is NOT HAVING SEX. We are always bound to seek the greater good or the lesser evil. So, given the above scenario, if one is truly concerned about death, why would one take a risk knowing that there is no form of artificial birth control that actually prevents pregnancy. For instance, did you know that according to studies, over 60% of all women who get an abortion do so because their use of artificial birth control failed to prevent pregnancy?

And to be honest, the Bible (and the Church of Christ since the advent of Christ) teaches that having deliberate conjugal relations while at the same time seeking to prevent procreation is a grave sin. Onan did this in Genesis and was killed by God for it. That’s solid Scriptural evidence that contraception is “grave” sin. Christianity has taught this in every century since advent of Christ. So, why do you think it is not a grave sin? What is the greater good? Serving God in abstinence or having sex given that the consequences of sex may result in death?

In your example, it seems the greater evil is the choice for risking your life so that you can have sex, putting yourself into a possibility of being pregnant, yet, not wanting to live with the consequences of being pregnant. That’s not a dilemma of conscience, but constitutes unreasonable behavior. That’s like telling someone that you will drink and drive, so long as you take precautions such as wearing a helment and seat belt combined. It lacks sound judgment. The right answer is don’t drink and drive.

Also I think you misunderstand what the Church teaches about conscience. One does not need a degree in theology to know what the Church teaches regarding conscience. For example, according to Donum Veritatis, the Church affirms, “conscience does not constitute an autonomous and exclusive authority for deciding the truth of a doctrine.”

See also Cardinal Ratzinger’s article on conscience, here: Truth and Conscience

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Thank you very much for the thoughtful responses. I suppose then than my problem may lie in the fact that I do not believe that the Church, being made up of fallible men, is entirely free from error 100% of the time. History has taught us that, regardless of how we choose to interpret 2 or 3 lines of scripture where Jesus gives the apostles authority over His church. I believe that the Church is wise and good and has had many brilliant scholars and theologians compiling vast amounts of knowledge over the years, but a lot of this is starting to sound like legalism to me, which Christ specifically warned against.

Also, regarding not having sex with one’s husband, that was also SPECIFICALLY prohibited by Saint Paul except by mutual consent and only for brief periods of time. And Onan’s sin was most likely that of not giving offspring to his brother’s wife and following the law in that regard, not simply “withdrawing”.

I try to be the best person I can and the best Catholic I can, but there are times when I simply cannot just submit to a Church teaching that I feel in my heart is not right, and i don’t think that makes me a horrible person or a bad Catholic or destined for Hell as some of you seem to believe. I am not going to go against my conscience out of sheer blind submission to a Church made of men who are just as fallible as I am. I try and I study and I pray and all I can do is hope that this is good enough for God in the end and that He will realize that I have tried to please Him and do what is right. In some ways I really feel rejected by the Church (or at least this forum haha) because I feel that it is asking me to go against my personal beliefs, telling me that what I feel God is telling me is wrong, that I cannot have a personal relationship with God where he reveals things to me in the quiet of my heart because they know it all and I just better do what they say or else.

 

[petras52]

Thanks for your responses! Unfortunately, I still feel like I am getting the runaround Part of this is because I think that the Church’s logic on this matter is circular. I have read VOLUMES on why the CC says contraception is wrong. I get it. But there are areas where I disagree. Now I have prayed about it, studied about it, read about it, etc. According to what everyone here seems to think, some little bell should go “ding!” and I will suddenly see the light. Well, that hasn’t happened. So now what am I to do? I don’t have the time or resources to go out and get a PhD in Catholic theology or to join a nunnery and spend 12 hours a day in prayer. I have a family to raise! So, if my conscience does not change on a matter where I disagree with the CC (and let’s not limit this to a discussion on contraception, that was merely an example to illustrate a point, not a huge point of contention for me specifically) and I am BOUND (according to the CC) to follow my conscience, then I am a heretic and going to Hell anyway? But If I just submit to the teaching of the CC, thus going against my understanding of what God has revealed to me through his Word and through personal prayer and reflection, then I am going against what my conscience specifically tells me is right and so i go to Hell, or is the CC going to tell me that as long as I follow their rules, even if it goes against what I truly believe in my heart to be right that I am in the clear? Does anyone else see a problem with this?

Let’s continue with a very extreme example of the contraception issue: let’s say that i am a mother of 6. If I have another child, i will 100% die. My husband is out of a job and I am the sole support of the family. Although we do not want to, we are using condoms along with NFP to give us the best chance of not getting pregnant. If I do, I will die and my family will be scattered to the winds among various foster families and my husband will be homeless. The CC tells me that contraception is INTRINSICALLY evil, meaning there is no justification EVER for its use. After much reflection, study and prayer, my conscience tells me that my obligation is to my family, to care for them, be there for them and maintain a loving marital relationship with my husband, so I choose to go against Church teaching but to follow my conscience. I am a heretic and going to Hell?

Like I said, this is not about the contraception issue per se, but about this attitude in general. It’s like the CC is saying to me “Follow your conscience.” i say “OK, but it’s telling me to do ABC”. Then the CC says, “Then your conscience is wrong. Fix it.” So I put in this huge amount of effort into deepening my understanding of the issue and in praying to God and listening to my heart and I say “My conscience is really still telling me ABC” and the CC says, “Then just do what we say” and I say, “Well, what about my conscience?” And the CC says, “Well, we want you to follow it, but we want you to do what we say” and I say which is more important? And then I hear crickets. What is a person to do?

One other thing to consider is that the Chuch states people of other faiths can be saved. This implies that people of other faiths where abc is allowed, Lutheran, for ex., can go to heaven while using abc while we can’t…this has me really confused, I’ve asked a priest about it and frankly he also was troubled by it…his thought was that if I used abc, I would be going against my conscience while my Lutheran friends would not…that however is not a good explanation if my conscience does not believe abc is wrong between married people…

 

[DarkNight]

The CCC on Primacy of Conscience

1776 “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

Go with Love, Go with God

 

[Thoughtfulone]

One other thing to consider is that the Chuch states people of other faiths can be saved. This implies that people of other faiths where abc is allowed, Lutheran, for ex., can go to heaven while using abc while we can’t…this has me really confused, I’ve asked a priest about it and frankly he also was troubled by it…his thought was that if I used abc, I would be going against my conscience while my Lutheran friends would not…that however is not a good explanation if my conscience does not believe abc is wrong between married people…

I too have thought of this before. I feel like I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t on issues where I disagree with the CC. On one hand, I am obeying my conscience, but disobeying the CC, on the other hand I am obeying the CC but disobeying my conscience. There are times (be they few and far between) when I simply cannot do both. What then? Either way I am committing a sin by either going against the CC or my conscience. I feel like I can’t win!

 

[Thoughtfulone]

The CCC on Primacy of Conscience

1776 “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

Go with Love, Go with God

I love this. I wonder how individual the conscience is? I mean, does God speak to different people in different ways? Are certain things maybe acceptable for some people depending on their personal circumstances but not for others and is this communicated to them by God via their conscience? Just a thought.

 

[aperture]

I love this. I wonder how individual the conscience is?

Reading the rest of the Catechism, though, it seems to essentially say “…but the only true conscience is set by the Church.”

[Look in the 1780s and 90s in that link.]

 

[TedDC]

Thanks for your responses! Unfortunately, I still feel like I am getting the runaround Part of this is because I think that the Church’s logic on this matter is circular. I have read VOLUMES on why the CC says contraception is wrong. I get it. But there are areas where I disagree. Now I have prayed about it, studied about it, read about it, etc. According to what everyone here seems to think, some little bell should go “ding!” and I will suddenly see the light. Well, that hasn’t happened. So now what am I to do? I don’t have the time or resources to go out and get a PhD in Catholic theology or to join a nunnery and spend 12 hours a day in prayer. I have a family to raise! So, if my conscience does not change on a matter where I disagree with the CC (and let’s not limit this to a discussion on contraception, that was merely an example to illustrate a point, not a huge point of contention for me specifically) and I am BOUND (according to the CC) to follow my conscience, then I am a heretic and going to Hell anyway? But If I just submit to the teaching of the CC, thus going against my understanding of what God has revealed to me through his Word and through personal prayer and reflection, then I am going against what my conscience specifically tells me is right and so i go to Hell, or is the CC going to tell me that as long as I follow their rules, even if it goes against what I truly believe in my heart to be right that I am in the clear? Does anyone else see a problem with this?

You’re running up against the insurmountable wall of “because the Church says so and if you don’t believe it you’re a heretic who will burn in hell forever”. Thinking is strongly discouraged.

 

[Ponyguy]

Thoughtful one,
You are but one among many who are resoundingly befuddled by a conflict between your conscience and the rules of the Church. Don’t ever feel like the Lone Ranger.

I’d suggest making an appointment with a priest you can talk to, and discuss your conscience issues with him. Direct, personal spiritual advice from a priest who might know you and your situation is going to be better than any from a faceless Internet forum. And if he doesn’t have a convincing explanation and answer for you, he can probably set you up with someone who can.

Please continue to pray and see if you can get somewhere with your priest; God gave us His rules to follow, and He also gave us an intellect and a will. He expects us to use both of those faculties. I’ll say a few for you, too…

Regards,
Ponyguy

 

[o_mlly]

I would suggest reading the article “The Incon Inconvenient Conscience” by George Cardinal Pell published in First Things, May 2005.

Why do people strain to accommodate absolute sexual freedom as a matter of conscience? Why does no one plead for the right to racism or sexism as a matter of conscience? Could it be because the liberal concept of conscience has been specially formulated in order to facilitate the sexual indiscipline that our culture upholds?

Much of the debate over conscience in Catholic circles focuses on the possibility of a conscience set against the Church’s teaching. This seems to me a peculiar notion. For a start, it seems to mean that dissenters believe that following the Church on, say, contraception or same-sex relationships, would actually give them a guilty conscience. Yet it seems clear that most dissenters do not fear guilt if they obey the Church. What they fear is precisely the frustration of their unsatisfied desires.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Reading the rest of the Catechism, though, it seems to essentially say “…but the only true conscience is set by the Church.”

[Look in the 1780s and 90s in that link.]

Well, that I guess is where I have a problem. How can this be true “There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths” and yet the CCC also says that, “rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching” is a sin. Isn’t that contradictory? Is it suggesting that I ignore God’s voice within in favor of theirs? Yes, ideally, they would both be saying the same thing (conscience and the CC), but what about the times when this is not true?

 

[DarkNight]

I love this. I wonder how individual the conscience is? I mean, does God speak to different people in different ways? Are certain things maybe acceptable for some people depending on their personal circumstances but not for others and is this communicated to them by God via their conscience? Just a thought.

I believe that God talks to each of us at every moment - a constant communication.
Every one has different problems / different situations.
If I listen, I will hear Him telling me the answer that I should make.
It is the answer for my situation; it may not be correct for another.

I talk to God about my problems. I don’t ask for a specific solution. I listen for what He tells me.
I walk the path that He shows me with faith that He is leading me to Him.
My path is for me, your path is for you. In the end, they all lead to Him.

Go with Love, Go with God