Conscience question

[sw85]

The point here is that the person clearly doesn’t believe they are acting against objective moral truth simply because the Church may claim that it is. This person would think the Church is flat-out wrong. You can say “but it’s not, the Church is infallible” all day long, but that doesn’t change the fact that this person doesn’t see it that way.

Of course if this person believed the Church was always infallible in everything, there would not be a conflict of conscience.

It really, really does not matter.

If your conscience urges you to depart from the good, then your conscience is defective. Adhere your will to the teachings of the Church and trust the rest to God.

There is one natural law and one objective moral truth, and the Church alone is entrusted with its stewardship and protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Solipsism is not our thing.

 

[Nate13]

It really, really does not matter.

If your conscience urges you to depart from the good, then your conscience is defective. Adhere your will to the teachings of the Church and trust the rest to God.

There is one natural law and one objective moral truth, and the Church alone is entrusted with its stewardship and protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Solipsism is not our thing.

LeSainte is wrestling with an conflicting conscience. Part of her believes the Catholic Church, and part of her believes what is coming from herself. The thing is she has so divided herself that she believes the battle is between herself and the Church, when it is really being fought within herself. She is currently thinking she can just believe the Church is right on everything, but contraception however she realizes how illogical this is. It would be like betting on the same horse 100 times in a row and always winning big, but on the 101st time you decide to bet on another horse even though the original horse is still in perfect health…

 

[Jaaanosik]

I hope it’s clear that well informed conscience rules.

I’d like to discuss a case of an assassin Killbill.

A new born baby was taken from a mother and sent to a camp where the baby grew up and listened to one master.
The whole life Killbill was trained and formed to do what the master says. The ultimate goal of his life was to kill when the master says so and kill himself when the master dies.
So he did, Killbill killed many people. One day the master died and Killbill killed himself.

What happens? Does Killbill have a chance to get to Heaven?
Any thoughts?

 

[Debora123]

I hope it’s clear that well informed conscience rules.

I’d like to discuss a case of an assassin Killbill.

A new born baby was taken from a mother and sent to a camp where the baby grew up and listened to one master.
The whole life Killbill was trained and formed to do what the master says. The ultimate goal of his life was to kill when the master says so and kill himself when the master dies.
So he did, Killbill killed many people. One day the master died and Killbill killed himself.

What happens? Does Killbill have a chance to get to Heaven?
Any thoughts?

I think killbill does have a chance to get to heaven, but he has a chance to get to hell too.

Only God knows what was in his heart, and only God can judge. That’s the whole point of conscience and why conscience is sooo important to moral culpability.

 

[Nate13]

I hope it’s clear that well informed conscience rules.

I’d like to discuss a case of an assassin Killbill.

A new born baby was taken from a mother and sent to a camp where the baby grew up and listened to one master.
The whole life Killbill was trained and formed to do what the master says. The ultimate goal of his life was to kill when the master says so and kill himself when the master dies.
So he did, Killbill killed many people. One day the master died and Killbill killed himself.

What happens? Does Killbill have a chance to get to Heaven?
Any thoughts?

"1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience. "

If Killbill met either of the conditions above then yes. Only God would know this for sure.

These conditions are further clarified by this:

"1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct."

 

[LaSainte]

It really, really does not matter.

If your conscience urges you to depart from the good, then your conscience is defective. Adhere your will to the teachings of the Church and trust the rest to God.

There is one natural law and one objective moral truth, and the Church alone is entrusted with its stewardship and protected from error by the Holy Spirit. Solipsism is not our thing.

It certainly does matter. If a person is not convinced that what the church declares is necessarily “good” then why on earth should they submit to it? That’s like telling someone to just go ahead and follow Islam because it holds the only truth. If a person doesn’t believe it, why should they follow it?

If someone does not find the argument for infallibility to be convincing, then to submit to everything the Church says would be folly.

 

[LaSainte]

"1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience. "

If Killbill met either of the conditions above then yes. Only God would know this for sure.

These conditions are further clarified by this:

"1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct."

I love this. The Church says conscience reigns supreme and is sacred, God within us, etc. then it says “Oh by the way, WE are your conscience, anything else is from the devil”.

The only choices we have a right to make for ourselves are so inconsequential that they don’t matter anyway.

 

[Bookcat]

In terms a person who is a Catholic:

If there is a conflict …it is conflict within a persons conscience.

Not a conflict between the person and the Church.

The reality of the Church is part of the persons very conscience.

The person is in conflict with themselves.

They need to work to heal this.

 

[Nate13]

I love this. The Church says conscience reigns supreme and is sacred, God within us, etc. then it says “Oh by the way, WE are your conscience, anything else is from the devil”.

The only choices we have a right to make for ourselves are so inconsequential that they don’t matter anyway.

Its only a pain for people with a conflict of conscience who are looking for an easy way out

 

[Debora123]

Its only a pain for people with a conflict of conscience who are looking for an easy way out

This strikes me as somewhat uncharitable and judgmental, IMHO. Not to mention truly offensive to people who struggle deeply with this issue.

 

[Nate13]

This strikes me as somewhat uncharitable and judgmental, IMHO. Not to mention truly offensive to people who struggle deeply with this issue.

Thus why it was deleted shortly after… Slow down there quick draw. I also take it your not a fan of tough love. Sometimes the best way to get to someone is to offer support and to hold them close, while at other times a swift kick in the back end is necessary. You seem to think anything less than complete empathy is unacceptable. If I’m on the edge of a cliff about to tumble over, I would hope someone would grab my hand and pull be back instead of giving me a back rub.

 

[Debora123]

Thus why it was deleted shortly after…

Ooh, good choice.

 

[Nate13]

I love this. The Church says conscience reigns supreme and is sacred, God within us, etc. then it says “Oh by the way, WE are your conscience, anything else is from the devil”.

The only choices we have a right to make for ourselves are so inconsequential that they don’t matter anyway.

That is one way of looking at it. That of course ignores the fact that because of the Church’s guidance you have been saved from so many other evils that would have crushed you. You are unable to see the Church’s reasoning on this issue and it makes you see the Church as your en-slaver. I’d urge you to remember all the other many issues the Church has guided in that have made you so much freer, and continue to trust that the Church is there to truly set you free.

A great quote from Chesterton:
“Catholic doctrine and discipline may be walls, but they are the walls of a playground.”

 

[Rence]

Let’s say I have a fully informed conscience on a certain issue (I’m going to use condoms as an example). I have read all the church documents on it and prayed about it over years and still, my conscience cannot be reconciled with church teaching. Let’s say that for whatever reason, my conscience is telling me 1.) God does not want a married couple to be abstinent indefinitely, 2.) I must do everything in my power (save abstinence or the use of abortion-inducing ABC) to avoid having another child-which includes NFP, coitus interruptus and condoms, simultaneously.

Now, considering that I would have done everything in my power to conform my conscience to church teaching and begged God to help me, and considering the fact that my conscience would be telling me that it would in fact be EVIL not to use NFP, condoms and coitus interruptus to avoid having another child for whatever reason, would I be sinning by obeying church teaching? The catechism says that anyone who disobeys the certain judgement of their conscience condemns himself, no ifs, ands or buts. It also says that a conscience may be erroneous, but DOES NOT excuse one from following it.

So the question is, is a person who has been diligent in forming their conscience in line with the church to no avail sinning by going against their conscience?

LaSainte, you have to talk to a priest about this. This is a Catholic online forum, and no one is going to give you a green light to go against Church teaching, they can’t. The references we were given (Catechism and Encyclicals) are written in black and white situations, and with no grey areas to consider. They will tell you that if your well informed conscience does not correspond with the Church’s teaching, then you obviously don’t have a well enough informed conscience, and that the rationale and reasons behind the conclusion that led you to your informed conscience are faulty…obviously.

 

[Nate13]

LaSainte, you have to talk to a priest about this. This is a Catholic online forum, and no one is going to give you a green light to go against Church teaching, they can’t. The references we were given (Catechism and Encyclicals) are written in black and white situations, and with no grey areas to consider. They will tell you that if your well informed conscience does not correspond with the Church’s teaching, then you obviously don’t have a well enough informed conscience, and that the rationale and reasons behind the conclusion that led you to your informed conscience are faulty…obviously.

She feels trapped because she gained the knowledge of what the Church teaches on contraception and is now expected to uphold it based on her beliefs. I’m sure she has great empathy for what Adam and Eve went through after they ate from the tree of knowledge.

 

[Debora123]

She feels trapped because she gained the knowledge of what the Church teaches on contraception and is now expected to uphold it based on her beliefs. I’m sure she has great empathy for what Adam and Eve went through after they ate from the tree of knowledge.

Is this exactly what LaSainte said or is it just your assumptions of how she feels?

 

[Rence]

She feels trapped because she gained the knowledge of what the Church teaches on contraception and is now expected to uphold it based on her beliefs. I’m sure she has great empathy for what Adam and Eve went through after they ate from the tree of knowledge.

LaSainte has told us why she feels trapped, and it’s not because she is expected to uphold teachings based on her beliefs. But LaSainte can answer that better than anyone.

 

[Nate13]

Is this exactly what LaSainte said or is it just your assumptions of how she feels?

You just don’t like my posts either way haha. Yes, its an assumption in that I’m not 100% sure this is how she feels. After reading all her posts and after personal experience I would say I’m 90% sure of my presumption. If you read through her posts you will see bits a pieces of what I’ve posted. If I’m wrong I’m sure she will correct me. When you have a frown on your face, and someone asks you what is wrong do you chastise them for presuming about how you felt?

 

[catharina]

An important line from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that often gets forgotten in discussions of “conscience”.

From CCC 2039:

“Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.”

---

Another line of interest:

“Conscience’s reduction to subjective certitude betokens at the same time a retreat from truth.”

–Cardinal Ratzinger (Truth and Conscience 1991)

Perfect!

 

[catharina]

No, you can’t make something into a mortal sin just by believing that it is one. If I believe that combing my hair is a mortal sin, I am not going to hell because I combed my hair in spite of my belief. A mortal sin is a gravely disordered act, based on God’s teaching and not on our individual or collective beliefs.

You are twisting what is simple in order to try and get approval for an action that is always contrary to God’s desires for us.

Also Perfect!