Consecrated Hosts from Latin Rite Used at Eastern Catholic Pre-Sanctified Liturgy?

[Spiller]

My Eastern (Byzantine-Ruthenian) pastor said today ‘I don’t know what would happen if I “went”’ as he is the only Eastern Catholic priest for about 150+ miles in any direction.

Since we are graced with a deacon who is able to celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified, I asked if we could use consecrated hosts and/or the Precious Blood from a local Latin Rite parish.

His immediate response was “no” but then qualified it by saying he really wasn’t certain. So if we break this down:

1.) If a ciborium full of leavened bread (along with the typical wafers) was confected into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ at a Mass, it could most certainly be used in an Eastern pre-sanctified liturgy. However leavened bread is not supposed to be used at the Mass. It would still become the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, but we would be breaking a rule.

2.) If consecrated hosts from a Latin Rite parish were used at a pre-sanctified liturgy, they would get rather unwieldy after soaking in wine. Not too good.

3.) Now let’s go the other route. Let’s say a sealed vessel of wine were confected into the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ at a Mass and later mixed with prosphora (leavened bread) at a pre-sanctified liturgy. The problem with this is that the Precious Blood is only supposed to be reserved in special cases for the sick. It’s also the tradition to mix the pre-consecrated bread with wine (not the Precious Blood) at pre-sanctified liturgies and not the reverse. Again, not too good.

4.) Drive the 150+ miles to pick-up a VERY large pyx of pre-consecrated bread and keep it reposed in the tabernacle to cover several pre-sanctified liturgies. Maybe.

Of all the options, #4 seems to be the most acceptable, although #1 also seems as though it would be doable if the two bishops involved were in agreement.

This is one of the more intriguing questions I have considered along this area in a very long time. Anyone have any *actual *experience with such a situation or have you heard of one and the choice they made?

 

[jpjd]

Well, the one scenario you hadn’t considered is that your bishop would assign a replacement priest right away!

I personally have no experience in this area, and although it may be fun to speculate, ultimately it is up to the bishop to determine how this situation would be handled. If your priest is old or infirm, maybe it would be a good idea to get your bishop’s thoughts on this now, so it doesn’t become a crisis later.

 

[Spiller]

Well, the one scenario you hadn’t considered is that your bishop would assign a replacement priest right away!

I personally have no experience in this area, and although it may be fun to speculate, ultimately it is up to the bishop to determine how this situation would be handled. If your priest is old or infirm, maybe it would be a good idea to get your bishop’s thoughts on this now, so it doesn’t become a crisis later.

I have never heard this matter discussed. You’re right though, it’s ultimately up to the bishop(s) – and other than an immediate replacement, the only real answer. Under dire circumstances I’m guessing #1 and #4 would both be doable.

 

[bilop]

Since we are graced with a deacon who is able to celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified, I asked if we could use consecrated hosts and/or the Precious Blood from a local Latin Rite parish.

2.) If consecrated hosts from a Latin Rite parish were used at a pre-sanctified liturgy, they would get rather unwieldy after soaking in wine. Not too good.

You can do intinction with wafer hosts rather easily. The Priest/Deacon just needs to dip, rather than letting the hosts soak. Also you need a altar server with a Paten, and a special Chalice/Ciborium so the Priest/Deacon can hold both easily. I’ve seen latin Rite Priests do this.

God Bless

 

[Spiller]

You can do intinction with wafer hosts rather easily. The Priest/Deacon just needs to dip, rather than letting the hosts soak. Also you need a altar server with a Paten, and a special Chalice/Ciborium so the Priest/Deacon can hold both easily. I’ve seen latin Rite Priests do this.

God Bless

That’s not how communion is distributed in the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church. It’s distributed with a spoon. Patens are not used – purificators are.

In any event it would not be communion by intinction – it would not be a matter of dipping the consecrated host in the Precious Blood, but into wine, and I have never heard that being done before.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My Eastern (Byzantine-Ruthenian) pastor said today ‘I don’t know what would happen if I “went”’ as he is the only Eastern Catholic priest for about 150+ miles in any direction.

Since we are graced with a deacon who is able to celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified, I asked if we could use consecrated hosts and/or the Precious Blood from a local Latin Rite parish.

His immediate response was “no” but then qualified it by saying he really wasn’t certain. So if we break this down:

1.) If a ciborium full of leavened bread (along with the typical wafers) was confected into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ at a Mass, it could most certainly be used in an Eastern pre-sanctified liturgy. However leavened bread is not supposed to be used at the Mass. It would still become the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, but we would be breaking a rule.

2.) If consecrated hosts from a Latin Rite parish were used at a pre-sanctified liturgy, they would get rather unwieldy after soaking in wine. Not too good.

3.) Now let’s go the other route. Let’s say a sealed vessel of wine were confected into the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ at a Mass and later mixed with prosphora (leavened bread) at a pre-sanctified liturgy. The problem with this is that the Precious Blood is only supposed to be reserved in special cases for the sick. It’s also the tradition to mix the pre-consecrated bread with wine (not the Precious Blood) at pre-sanctified liturgies and not the reverse. Again, not too good.

4.) Drive the 150+ miles to pick-up a VERY large pyx of pre-consecrated bread and keep it reposed in the tabernacle to cover several pre-sanctified liturgies. Maybe.

Of all the options, #4 seems to be the most acceptable, although #1 also seems as though it would be doable if the two bishops involved were in agreement.

This is one of the more intriguing questions I have considered along this area in a very long time. Anyone have any *actual *experience with such a situation or have you heard of one and the choice they made?

Either Blessed Sacrament could be used in either Liturgy. The problem comes in with the manner of distribution of Holy Communion. The form used in the Latin Rite does not work well in the Byzantine Rite and the form used in the Byzantine Rite would not work well in the Latin Mass.

I know that the normal practice in the Byzantine Rite is not to reserve a lot of the Blessed Sacrament in a tabernacle, only a small amount for Viaticum. However maybe your Pastor should consider Consecrating more for reservation in the tabernacle. Just in case he is not available. Generally the Precious Blood is not reserved in the Latin Rite. I don’t know about the Byzantine Rite.

Maybe in an emergency situation Holy Communion from the Latin Mass, could be distributed on the tongue, with no Precious Blood being available.

 

[PacoG]

Another option would be to see if any of the neighboring Latin Rite priests are bi-ritual.

 

[Spiller]

Another option would be to see if any of the neighboring Latin Rite priests are bi-ritual.

Apparently over the (21) years, my pastor has asked more than a dozen local Latin Rite priests if they would like to learn the Divine Liturgy and all have said no. Admittedly they already have a great deal on their plates…

 

[MusicMan]

Another option would be to see if any of the neighboring Latin Rite priests are bi-ritual.

This is probably the best option, in the event that the Eparchy is unable to assign a new pastor. Although, as Spiller says below, the neighboring priests have said no. Perhaps the two territorial Bishops could work together to ensure coverage. There may be a bi-ritual Latin priest elsewhere in the diocese that could be reassigned.

Spiller, just out of curiousity, which Eparchy do you reside in?

 

[Spiller]

This is probably the best option, in the event that the Eparchy is unable to assign a new pastor. Although, as Spiller says below, the neighboring priests have said no. Perhaps the two territorial Bishops could work together to ensure coverage. There may be a bi-ritual Latin priest elsewhere in the diocese that could be reassigned.

Spiller, just out of curiousity, which Eparchy do you reside in?

Van Nuys

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

You can do intinction with wafer hosts rather easily. The Priest/Deacon just needs to dip, rather than letting the hosts soak. Also you need a altar server with a Paten, and a special Chalice/Ciborium so the Priest/Deacon can hold both easily. I’ve seen latin Rite Priests do this.

God Bless

If there is no priest, there won’t be any Precious Blood. Which is why the OP was refering to the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts. Commonly called a “Communion Service” in the Latin Rite.

 

[MusicMan]

If I’m reading the OP correctly, now that my brain appears to be working again …

At the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts, the faithful receive Jesus through consecrated bread ONLY. The wine is just wine, not the Precious Blood, correct?

As such, there should be no problem with the Deacon fractioning Latin Church hosts in to smaller pieces, mixing them with the wine, and then distributing them with the gold spoon.

This should solve the issue, shouldn’t it?

 

[Spiller]

If I’m reading the OP correctly, now that my brain appears to be working again …

At the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts, the faithful receive Jesus through consecrated bread ONLY. The wine is just wine, not the Precious Blood, correct?

As such, there should be no problem with the Deacon fractioning Latin Church hosts in to smaller pieces, mixing them with the wine, and then distributing them with the gold spoon.

This should solve the issue, shouldn’t it?

Consecrated bread mixed with sacramental wine – the Precious Blood is not reserved…

The hosts would get MIGHTY soggy I think. It might work though.

 

[MusicMan]

So, it’s not consecrated wine, it’s the sacramental wine, but pre-consecrated.

I don’t know how soggy the hosts pieces would get. It might be advisable to use several of the large hosts for the elevation consecrated if you are forced to go this route. They seem to be much “stiffer” and are designed to be fractioned.

As for soggy, every time I have received Communion at the DL, the cube of consecrated bread has always been pretty soggy too. Perhaps its because I sit 2/3rds of the way to the back and the bread has had time to soak in the Precious Blood.

I know nothing about the Eparchy of Van Nuys, but it seems like the Eparchy of Parma (which I territorally reside in, even though I am a Latin Catholic) doesn’t seem to have too much trouble finding priests to staff her churches. I would hope that when the time comes that your priest can no longer celebrate the DL with you that your Eparchy could find another priest.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

If I’m reading the OP correctly, now that my brain appears to be working again …

At the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts, the faithful receive Jesus through consecrated bread ONLY. The wine is just wine, not the Precious Blood, correct?

As such, there should be no problem with the Deacon fractioning Latin Church hosts in to smaller pieces, mixing them with the wine, and then distributing them with the gold spoon.

This should solve the issue, shouldn’t it?

That would work if that is the case. I was thinking with my Latin head on. I’ve never been to a Byzantine Liturgy on Good Friday.

 

[MusicMan]

Remember, Br. Rich, that the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts occurs a lot more commonly (and appropriately) in the Eastern Churches than in the Latin one, especially in areas where priests are few and far between.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Remember, Br. Rich, that the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts occurs a lot more commonly (and appropriately) in the Eastern Churches than in the Latin one, especially in areas where priests are few and far between.

Well then we should learn for them. So if I understand correctly, Consecrated bread is mixed with un-consecrated wine to allow for the normal form of distribution using a spoon? Is that correct?