Consecrated Virgin

[LilyM]

“But no-one can argue that the POSITION of Pope, or the state of virginity, isn’t a special and uniquely ‘high’ and ‘blessed’, or even ‘better’ position.”
Is that not what the dogma that consecrated virginity is a higher state than marriage is doing in the case of the reality of Popes that were married? They were married, so in a lower state, and at the same time Pope. So the dogma argues this.

“So, if Peter was celibate and/or virgin as well as being Pope (and he almost certainly was celibate)”
Again, Peter was married, and not a virgin. And Scripture makes a point of stating that Peter had a mother-in-law. Why? If someone was married, are they still a virgin? God blessed Peter with the gift of a wife, and he accepted that gift of marriage, the two became one. Did Peter later renounce that gift, and the one became two?

Michael

Celibate doesn’t mean virgin. It simply means a person who is CURRENTLY unmarried (note: not never-married, can apply to divorced or widowed persons) people who abstain from sexual activity.

I would argue very strongly that he was most likely widowed - what kind of man gets their sick mother-in-law straight up out of her sickbed (even if she’d just been miraculously healed!) to serve his guests if the wife or any other woman is present to do so? That combined with his nomadic following of Christ and travels afterwards strongly suggests that he had no living wife.

And it is totally beside my point anyway. Council of Trent has said, dogmatically, and we are bound to believe as faithful Catholics, that celibacy and virginity are higher states than marriage. So virgin and celibate Popes would, objectively (pay attention, I’m not discussing anyone’s personal holiness) be in a higher state than Popes who weren’t.

As for consecrated virgins - they have virginity and celibacy but neither Holy Orders nor the advantages of the office of Pope, so it’s fruitless to speculate on whether they are in a ‘higher state’ than non-virgin or non-celibate Popes.

 

[LilyM]

So, I believe all the Apostles Creed affirms, and disagree with celibacy as a higher state. And that makes me no longer considered a member of the Church?

Think about what you assert and whether it is consistent with the Word of God:
Romans 10:8-13 "But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Nothing there about having to believe marriage or celibacy is a higher state than the other. Is the Catholic Gospel about Jesus atoning for our sins, or believing in celibacy as a higher state?

Michael

Belief in Jesus necessitates belief in the Church that he instituted - ‘who hears you hears me’ and ‘what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven’. Those are Christ’s own words, not mine. He is the one who promised to guide the Church and protect it with the Holy Spirit, for all time, so that it teaches ALL TRUTH.

Church teaching = Christ teaching truth through the Church,
denial of Church teaching = denial of Christ’s teaching, and denial of Christ himself, who IS the truth.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Mt 28 19_20;2120186:

napad;2120046:

Not by virtue of his celibacy, since I am celibate too, but by virtue of his office and his reception of the sacrament of Holy Orders, neither of which I posess.

So you are in a higher state than I am? Do you believe that?

So you prayed/worked through the arguements for and against celibacy before taking that vow, so that your conscience agreed with the discipline? 1 Tim 3 and 4 were no difficulty, and Mt 19 was no difficulty, even though no were else in the New Testament do we hear of the disciples voluntering insight and understanding, except when they say it is better not to marry?

Mt 19:9-10 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.The disciples said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
They finally had insight and volunteered a teaching? Since they were men before Pentecost, could this be considered a teaching of men?
Any parallels with Mt 19:24-26 “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”
And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

First they say marriage is too hard, and then wonder who can be saved. Such insight, and Jesus affirmed them, or corrected/taught them time after time, as He does with us?

Michael

 

[LilyM]

LilyM;2120205:

Mt 28 19_20;2120186:

So you are in a higher state than I am? Do you believe that?

So you prayed/worked through the arguements for and against celibacy before taking that vow, so that your conscience agreed with the discipline? 1 Tim 3 and 4 were no difficulty, and Mt 19 was no difficulty, even though no were else in the New Testament do we hear of the disciples voluntering insight and understanding, except when they say it is better not to marry?

Mt 19:9-10 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.The disciples said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
They finally had insight and volunteered a teaching? Since they were men before Pentecost, could this be considered a teaching of men?
Any parallels with Mt 19:24-26 “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”
And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

First they say marriage is too hard, and then wonder who can be saved. Such insight, and Jesus affirmed them, or corrected/taught them time after time, as He does with us?

Michael

What are you blathering on about? I am not vowed to celibacy, neither does Trent discuss only people who are vowed to celibacy. It speaks of people who ARE celibate. Which I am and have been for nigh on 15 years now.

Objectively, every person who is celibate (as I am, and as Paul was) is in a higher state than anyone who is married, just as everyone who is in Holy Orders is in a higher state than anyone who isn’t, and all Popes are objectively in a higher state than non-Popes, and all Kings and Queens in a higher state than non-royalty.

Does this automatically make each individual one of 'em better or holier? Of course not. It means their state, as a whole, is a higher one is all.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Celibate doesn’t mean virgin. It simply means a person who is CURRENTLY unmarried (note: not never-married, can apply to divorced or widowed persons) people who abstain from sexual activity.

From newadvent.com

“Celibacy is the renunciation of marriage implicitly or explicitly made, for the more perfect observance of chastity,”

If one believes that the New Testament teaches marriage is a vow before God, and the two become one, then once they take that vow, they are joined together and have received God’s gift of marriage. Peter could not renounce the gift he had received. We cannot renounce the gift of baptism we have received. (not even by disagreeing with celibacy).

Being currently unmarried, or abstaining from sexual activity is not necessarily the same as celibacy. People can live single life in chastity, without renouncing marriage implicitly or explicitly.

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Mt 28 19_20;2120351:

LilyM;2120205:

What are you blathering on about? I am not vowed to celibacy, neither does Trent discuss only people who are vowed to celibacy. It speaks of people who ARE celibate. Which I am and have been for nigh on 15 years now.

Not blathering at all, your wording gave an impression you did not intend to give. Celibacy, is a vow of renouncing marriage. Being single and chaste can be lived without renouncing the possibility of marriage, or with renouncing the possibility of marriage: celibacy.

Michael

 

[LilyM]

LilyM;2120368:

Mt 28 19_20;2120351:

Not blathering at all, your wording gave an impression you did not intend to give. Celibacy, is a vow of renouncing marriage. Being single and chaste can be lived without renouncing the possibility of marriage, or with renouncing the possibility of marriage: celibacy.

Michael

common dictionary definition:

cel·i·bate(sl-bt)
n.

1. One who abstains from sexual intercourse, ***especially ***by reason of religious vows.
2. One who is unmarried.
   adj.
3. Abstaining from sexual intercourse, especially by reason of religious vows.
4. Unmarried; unwed.

Doesn’t automatically mean vowed to abstaining from intercourse. And certainly I am unmarried, which fits the final definition anyway.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Mt 28 19_20;2120351:

LilyM;2120205:

Objectively, every person who is celibate (as I am, and as Paul was) is in a higher state than anyone who is married, just as everyone who is in Holy Orders is in a higher state than anyone who isn’t, and all Popes are objectively in a higher state than non-Popes, and all Kings and Queens in a higher state than non-royalty

So the Popes who were married were in a lower state due to their marriage? How does it go? If I try to go from highest to lower, would it be something like:

The Trinity

Celibate Popes
Popes with think were celibate
Peter, our first Pope who was at some time married
Married Popes
Celibate Priests
Married Priests: Eastern Church
Nuns
Ex-Nuns who have not yet married and not fornicated
Pope Alexander VI, 1503: with 4 children out of wedlock
Catholic children of married Catholics who chose not to marry yet
Catholic children of married Catholic too young to marry
Married Catholics
Ex-Nuns who then marry
Ex-Priests who then marry
Michael for disagreeing with celibacy

Michael

 

[LilyM]

So the Popes who were married were in a lower state due to their marriage?

Now you get it.

How does it go? If I try to go from highest to lower, would it be something like:

Married Catholics
Ex-Nuns who then marry
Ex-Priests who then marry

**other Catholics

domestic pets of other Catholics**

Michael for professing to be Catholic but disagreeing with **God’s teaching, dogmatically expressed by the Catholic church, about ** celibacy

Michael

that’s a bit closer (I’m joking of course)

In all seriousness it’s not quite so cut and dried as that

Of course other factors (such as receiving the sacraments of Matrimony or Holy Orders, or the office of Pope, making or breaking vows regarding one’s state before God, and so on) will all play a part.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Mt 28 19_20;2120383:

LilyM;2120368:

common dictionary definition

:

cel·i·bate(sl-bt)
n.

1. One who abstains from sexual intercourse, ***especially ***by reason of religious vows.
2. One who is unmarried.
   adj.
3. Abstaining from sexual intercourse, especially by reason of religious vows.
4. Unmarried; unwed.

Doesn’t automatically mean vowed to abstaining from intercourse. And certainly I am unmarried, which fits the final definition anyway.

m-w.com/dictionary/chaste
chaste
One entry found for chaste.

Main Entry: chaste
Pronunciation: 'chAst
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): chast·er; chast·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin castus pure
1 : innocent of unlawful sexual intercourse
2 : CELIBATE
3 : pure in thought and act : MODEST

So, #1 is chastity innocent of unlawful sexual intercourse: can be married or single

#2 is chastity as celibacy, where there is a vow to renounce marriage. Which is an unspoken vow here in the US, not sure about other places. At ordination the men are told that by not stepping away, they are accepting the vow of celibacy. They are not required to speak it. At least that is what I saw three years ago at the local ordination.

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Now you get it.

that’s a bit closer (I’m joking of course)

In all seriousness it’s not quite so cut and dried as that

Of course other factors (such as receiving the sacraments of Matrimony or Holy Orders, or the office of Pope, making or breaking vows regarding one’s state before God, and so on) will all play a part.

Where on the list would you guess Alexander VI to be?

Would you put children of married Catholics in a higher state than their parents while they are engaged, and then lower than them until they have their own children.

This really gets complicated, I’m not sure which state is higher than the other.

Can we then break this up into subcategories by which commandments one has broken?

Would a priest who was a child molester be in a higher state than a married Catholic while he still gives public witness of a vow of celibacy?

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Now you get it.

that’s a bit closer (I’m joking of course)

In all seriousness it’s not quite so cut and dried as that

Of course other factors (such as receiving the sacraments of Matrimony or Holy Orders, or the office of Pope, making or breaking vows regarding one’s state before God, and so on) will all play a part.

Is this any better?

The Trinity

Celibate Popes
Popes with think were celibate
Peter, our first Pope who was at some time married
Married Popes
Celibate Priests
Celibate Priests by public appearance, yet molested children
in private
Celibate Protestent Ministers
Married Priests: Eastern Church
Nuns
Ex-Nuns who have not yet married and not fornicated
Celibate Protestant Christians
Pope Alexander VI, 1503: with 4 children out of wedlock
Single Catholic adults open to marriage
Catholic children of married Catholics who chose not to marry yet
Catholic children of married Catholic too young to marry
Married Catholics
Pets of Catholics
Ex-Nuns who then marry
Ex-Priests who then marry
Married Protestant Christians
Michael for disagreeing with celibacy

Michael

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I am a single, never married, 40 + yr old female virgin. If I could be a priest or deacon I would. (A nun?–I am not so sure.) I am a physician and dedicated to my healing profession. I also serve as a pastoral minister in a local hospital. I have considered becoming a consecrated virgin, but I am not sure WHY I would do this. Would this help me to serve God in any different or better way than what I do now?

Good for you Mary!
I would pursue the matter in prayer and with your spiritual adviser.

 

[napad]

napad;2120046:

Mt 28 19_20;2119792:

I also know of no Pope who married while Pope. Yet there were several married Popes.

And secondly would be your answer to the question, so consider your answer up to this point partial and perhaps selective. “Were all the Popes who were married in a lower state than the consecrated virgins of that time?”

“It would have expalined to you that a marriage is invalidated if done after consecration of a vow of celibacy”
Interesting. What of those priests who asked for dispensation to marry, and married in the Church? Are they commiting fornication? Is that how God views their marriage? Did those who
What of ex-numeraries who get married in the Church, are they fornicating? Is that how God views their marriage?

Michael

You are so proud as to not listen to a saintly Pope, a Church Council, or the Church Fathers. I grow tied of impostors easily:yawn: :coffeeread:

 

[napad]

Good for you Mary!
I would pursue the matter in prayer and with your spiritual adviser.

Thanks for getting us back to the original post. Instead it turned into a apologetic night mare.

I too will pray for you, Mary. I would suggest Mary, looking into a Catholic Institute where you don’t have to live in community. Emmanual, Schonenstadt, or anyother number of lay Institutes. The reason being that older people (35-up) are more set in their ways and often have trouble adapting to community life. But if you live close to a community and had more freedom as you do now it could only help you to grow.

Of couse this don’t mean throw-out the possiblity of community life but be prepared for difficulties.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Mt 28 19_20;2120169:

napad;2120046:

You are so proud as to not listen to a saintly Pope, a Church Council, or the Church Fathers. I grow tied of impostors easily:yawn: :coffeeread:

How is that a response to my post?:

:I also know of no Pope who married while Pope. Yet there were several married Popes.

And secondly would be your answer to the question, so consider your answer up to this point partial and perhaps selective. “Were all the Popes who were married in a lower state than the consecrated virgins of that time?”

“It would have expalined to you that a marriage is invalidated if done after consecration of a vow of celibacy”
Interesting. What of those priests who asked for dispensation to marry, and married in the Church? Are they commiting fornication? Is that how God views their marriage? Did those who
What of ex-numeraries who get married in the Church, are they fornicating? Is that how God views their marriage?"

All you can do is accuse me of being proud and an imposter? Are these questions too difficult for one to answer in light of the dogma that consecretate virginity is a higher state than marriage?

Still waiting for the question to be addressed. Do you think I’m a dentist?

Michael

 

[Patrick_Eastin]

I’ve now read this thread from beginning to end. This fora is Vocations. This thread started about people who are called to live a celibate life. A discusssion of celibacy and all of its historic permutations more rightly belongs on the Apologetics fora.

Thanks to all who participated.