Consecrated wine and water

[turtleoompa]

I am an EM and while purifying the vessels after mass, I pour a little bit of water into each vessel(there is a little bit of consecrated wine always in bottom of vessels)then put the contents into one main vessel. I went to my priest for him to consume. He states when the consecrated wine is diluted it becomes nothing and refused to consume it. I drank it. Is he right. I feel it is still precious.

 

[kleary]

I am an EM and while purifying the vessels after mass, I pour a little bit of water into each vessel(there is a little bit of consecrated wine always in bottom of vessels)then put the contents into one main vessel. I went to my priest for him to consume. He states when the consecrated wine is diluted it becomes nothing and refused to consume it. I drank it. Is he right. I feel it is still precious.

As an EMHC you are not allowed to purify the sacred vessels anymore.

Also your priest is wrong. It still is diluted when he pours water into the chalice at the offertory.

Ken

 

[Digitonomy]

There was a discussion about this in a thread several months ago, based on what Thomas Aquinas wrote:

Consequently, it is always safer to add little water, especially if the wine be weak, because the sacrament could not be celebrated if there were such addition of water as to destroy the species of the wine.

There is a slight distinction, the issue discussed by Aquinas is how much water can be used prior to consecration, whereas you are asking (essentially) how much water it takes to eliminate the Eucharist. However, I think the approach is the same.

After you diluted the small residue of wine with water and drank it, there were still microscopic traces of wine within the chalice. But in the language of Aquinas, the species of wine is gone, and so therefore is the Eucharist. Your priest is arguing that this was already the case following your initial dilution.

 

[turtleoompa]

Yes, I know EM’s are not supposed to purify. Apparently our priests and Bishop are allowing EM’s to continue until they figure out what to do about the expired indult. I plan on no longer purifying after Dec. 31. I’ve given my notice.

 

[edward_george]

I don’t know why the priests and bishop of your diocese would need to “figure out what to do” about the expired indult. The only thing to do is obey.

-ACEGC

 

[turtleoompa]

My thoughts exactly. I just want to do the right thing. That’s why I’m happy to receive (name removed by moderator)ut on this thread.

 

[John_Lilburne]

The priest is correct, it is diluted to the point that it is no longer wine, so it is no long the Blood of Christ.

If you are an instituted acolyte you can do the purifications. Alternatively a bishop, priest or deacon can do them. This is a liturgical law, that should be followed. It is given in the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:

“[119.] The Priest, once he has returned to the altar after the distribution of Communion, standing at the altar or at the credence table, purifies the paten or ciborium over the chalice, then purifies the chalice in accordance with the prescriptions of the Missal and wipes the chalice with the purificator. Where a Deacon is present, he returns with the Priest to the altar and purifies the vessels. It is permissible, however, especially if there are several vessels to be purified, to leave them, covered as may be appropriate, on a corporal on the altar or on the credence table, and for them to be purified by the Priest or Deacon immediately after Mass once the people have been dismissed. Moreover a duly instituted acolyte assists the Priest or Deacon in purifying and arranging the sacred vessels either at the altar or the credence table. In the absence of a Deacon, a duly instituted acolyte carries the sacred vessels to the credence table and there purifies, wipes and arranges them in the usual way.
[Footnote 209: Cf. Missale Romanum, Institutio Generalis, nn. 163, 183, 192.]”

For reasons I have difficulty understanding this priest was not following this instruction. But having decided not to follow it, at least he was consistent. He did not half follow it, by drinking what remained from the chalice, without doing the purification.

The Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum is at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html . The 2002 “Missale Romanum, Institutio Generalis” can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html .

 

[seek1st]

are other parishes following this new regulation? we’re also waiting for the bishop’s instruction.

also, what is an instituted acolyte? does it have to be a male on the way to ordination? deacon or priest?

will parishes train and commission other lay “acolytes” to purify the sacred vessels?

 

[John_Lilburne]

Only men can be instituted acolytes, not women.

It is not necessary that the man be preparing for ordination as a deacon or priest. If any lay man requests it of his bishop the bishop may agree to the ceremony of institution.

Some bishops are enthusiastic about this. For example Bishop Robert Vasa wrote about the importance of men, not preparing for ordination, being instituted as lectors and acolytes in an article of 22 September 2006 at sentinel.org/articles/2006-38/14947.html .

Some bishops seem less enthusiastic, only doing the ceremony of institution because it is a required at least six months before ordination, according to canon 1035 of the Code of Canon Law.

In the 2005 Eucharist Synod, proposition 25 included: “In particular, the role of deacons and the service of readers and acolytes deserves greater attention.” Perhaps Pope Benedict’s expected Apostolic Exhortation will expand on this, leading more bishops to be more willing to institute more men as acolytes.

 

[scylla]

Probably not, unless it is an orthodox Bishop, as an acolyte is a ministry reserved for men, and the majority of those who support women priests and inclusion don’t like this sort of thing as it is exclusive.

So they appoint EMHC’s and ignore the availability of Acolytes.
This then allows them to state that women are already in that role and why not make women acolytes.
womenpriests.org/traditio/cod_1983.asp
Just read a little between the lines here and you will see.

The liberal party line is appoint women to parallel roles which then should justify putting women in the roles as men eventually to have women priests. But that is another thread.​

Acolytes can be appointed but seldom are in this country as that would be too Catholic for most of our Bishops. They need to keep making a new church.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[decn2b]

are other parishes following this new regulation? we’re also waiting for the bishop’s instruction.

also, what is an instituted acolyte? does it have to be a male on the way to ordination? deacon or priest?

will parishes train and commission other lay “acolytes” to purify the sacred vessels?

IT IS NOT A NEW REGULATION…it has ALWAYS been the priest or deacons job to purify the vessels. Several years ago the AMERICAN bishops asked for a special indult to allow for a 2-3 year period where the EMHCs could purify the vessels in lieu of the American bishops deciding what to d about the matter. That permission (indult) expired a LONG LONG LONG time ago. But as usual the USCCB has conveniently IGNORED it and have allowed it to continue.

Only men can be acolytes because it is a minor order of the priesthood. (ok shoot me down here I know minor orders were suppressed with just about everything else post VII)

You are bound to NOT purify as mentioned in the church document REDEMPTIONIS SACRAMENTUM #183

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I am an EM and while purifying the vessels after mass, I pour a little bit of water into each vessel(there is a little bit of consecrated wine always in bottom of vessels)then put the contents into one main vessel. I went to my priest for him to consume. He states when the consecrated wine is diluted it becomes nothing and refused to consume it. I drank it. Is he right. I feel it is still precious.

You should not be purifying any longer the Priest or Deacon should at the altar. EMHC should now be returning the chalices to either the Priest or Deacon after they have finished distributing Holy Communion. However to answer your question He is correct that once more water than Precious Blood is present in the chalice the contents of the chalice are no longer the Precious Blood of Christ. However the Church states that this first water must be consumed. Ciboriums, used to hold the Hosts are to also be rinsed with water and that water is poured into a chalice to be consumed also. Neither are to be poured down the sacrarium.

 

[John_Lilburne]

You should not be purifying any longer the Priest or Deacon should at the altar. …

A priest has the option of doing the purification at the credence table, instead of the altar.

I think a deacon is required to do the purification at the credence table.

For Mass with a deacon, from the 2002 GIRM:
“183. When the distribution of Communion is completed, the deacon returns to the altar with the priest and collects the fragments, if any remain, and then carries the chalice and other sacred vessels** to the credence table, where he purifies them** and arranges them in the usual way while the priest returns to the chair.”

For Mass without a deacon:
“163. … Upon returning to the altar, the priest collects any fragments that may remain. Then, standing at the altar or at the credence table, he purifies the paten or ciborium over the chalice then purifies the chalice, saying quietly, Quod ore sumpsimus (Lord, may I receive), and dries the chalice with a purificator.”

The credence table is preferred:
“279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table.”

The 2002 GIRM can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html .

 

[FrCorey]

I am an EM and while purifying the vessels after mass, I pour a little bit of water into each vessel(there is a little bit of consecrated wine always in bottom of vessels)then put the contents into one main vessel. I went to my priest for him to consume. He states when the consecrated wine is diluted it becomes nothing and refused to consume it. I drank it. Is he right. I feel it is still precious.

yep, he is wrong, even one consecrated microdrop
is still the blood. the lord does not dilute.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

yep, he is wrong, even one consecrated microdrop
is still the blood. the lord does not dilute.

Your not a Catholic priest right?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

A priest has the option of doing the purification at the credence table, instead of the altar.

I think a deacon is required to do the purification at the credence table.

For Mass with a deacon, from the 2002 GIRM:
“183. When the distribution of Communion is completed, the deacon returns to the altar with the priest and collects the fragments, if any remain, and then carries the chalice and other sacred vessels** to the credence table, where he purifies them** and arranges them in the usual way while the priest returns to the chair.”

For Mass without a deacon:
“163. … Upon returning to the altar, the priest collects any fragments that may remain. Then, standing at the altar or at the credence table, he purifies the paten or ciborium over the chalice then purifies the chalice, saying quietly, Quod ore sumpsimus (Lord, may I receive), and dries the chalice with a purificator.”

The credence table is preferred:
“279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table.”

The 2002 GIRM can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html .

I personally feel it should be done at the altar by the priest assisteed by the deacon for all to see the care and concern given to the contents of the ciborium and chalice by the priest and deacon…

 

[Brendan]

yep, he is wrong, even one consecrated microdrop
is still the blood. the lord does not dilute.

Father, that is incorrect and against the normative teaching of the Church.

The Real Presence only remains while the Accidents of Bread and Wine remain.

Our Lord is present in the appearance of Bread and Wine, he is NOT present in colored water.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Yes, I know EM’s are not supposed to purify. Apparently our priests and Bishop are allowing EM’s to continue until they figure out what to do about the expired indult. I plan on no longer purifying after Dec. 31. I’ve given my notice.

Actually EM’s (bishops, priests, deacons) are the one’s supposed to be purifying - it is the EMHC’s (layity) that are not allowed too.

Sorry, pet peeve.

 

[FrCorey]

Father, that is incorrect and against the normative teaching of the Church.

The Real Presence only remains while the Accidents of Bread and Wine remain.

Our Lord is present in the appearance of Bread and Wine, he is NOT present in colored water.

which rubrics?
case in point, our bishops told us even a drop of holy oil in a new jar will make the new jar fully holy.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

which rubrics?
case in point, our bishops told us even a drop of holy oil in a new jar will make the new jar fully holy.

Of course and the chalice or ciborum is also a holy vessel not only because it was blessed but because of what it contained and must be treated with the most respect even when empty. The water poured into the ciborium or chalice because it has come into contact with the body or Blood of Christ as I said MUST be consumed. However it has always said that once the consecrated elements are no longer identifiable as Bread and Wine they are no longer the Body and Blood of Christ. I do agree that a drop on precious blood unaltered, detectable by the human eye, would indeed be the Precious Blood of Christ.