Consecration of wine in "flaggon" forbidden

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ysicmg

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It is the common practice in our diocese to receive communion under both kinds. Many are very large parishes! Most have made necessary changes to the Communion rite to adhere to the new General Instruction. We also understand that it is no longer allowable to consecrate the wine in a large pitcher or “flaggon” and then fraction it into multiple chalices for the congregation.

The reason for not consecrating the wine into Precious Blood and THEN pouring it into multiple chalices is to avoid the opportunity of spillage - even one drop of Christ’s Precious Blood.

My questions are a logistical ones - during daily Mass now, the servers bring up two chalices and someone in the congregation brings up the gifts (bread and wine) - at that point the priest pours the wine into two chalices. The server takes away the little pitcher after the hand washing. That part was easy.

What about Sunday liturgies where we have 8 chalices? When should the wine be poured into these chalices? by whom?
Right after the presentation? or should it ever be before Mass? If it is at the presentation, I know that it should only be a priest or deacon. If it is possible to do before Mass, could it be a sacristan?

Another set of questions:
  • How are these chages impacting other large parishes?
  • How are you communicating / training and teaching the changes to your EMHC’s and catechizing your congregation?
Thank you all for your collective wisdom!
God bless you all!
ysiC,
mg
 
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ysicmg:
Another set of questions:
  • How are these chages impacting other large parishes?
mg
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Impact to date: None. If you were to ask the congregation the answer would be “Changes? what changes?”
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ysicmg:
How are you communicating / training and teaching the changes to your EMHC’s and catechizing your congregation?

mg
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Nothing as of yet. Our bishop is consulting his brother bishops and will get back to us.
 
I attended Mass in the diocese of Seattle this morning, I saw no changesin alignment with the new Instruction, none, zip and a few other abuses that I had not seen or heard before! And I’ve seen and heard a lot of them.

First thing is Wine can be poured into chalices prior. Remembering that water must be poured into each chalice or a flagon prior to filling the chalices. Those chalices must be on the corporal for the Consecration. Eight is a large number of chalices. It might be best for large parishes to re-consider if Communion is the necessary for large over-crouded Masses.
 
The new G.I.R.M forbids this? Could I get the section please?

I mentioned that you couldn’t do it to my pastor citing Redemptionis Sacramentum. He claimed that R.S. wasn’t active in our diocese yet. (I didn’t mention that the pope said it was active everywhere.)

The GIRM is supposed to be active everywhere already, right?

In Him, through her,
Pio Magnus
 
Oh,

also, it should be mentioned that it takes the same amount of time to pour the consecrated wine as it would to pour the unconsecrated wine. It would just be earlier in the mass.

In Him, through her,
PIo Magnus
 
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PioMagnus:
The new G.I.R.M forbids this? Could I get the section please?

sorry it is in the new instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum not the GIRM. :o
106. However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.
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Br. Rich SFO:
Eight is a large number of chalices. It might be best for large parishes to re-consider if Communion is the necessary for large over-crouded Masses.
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My parish is large. (Church capacity 1,500; 5,000+ registered families; 10,000+ attending Mass each weekend)

So far, no changes to the Liturgy to comply with RS. Last week I attended a medium sized local parish. There four chalices were used. The acolyte/servers brought the chalices to the alter as part of preparing the alter during the presentation of the gifts. The priest then poured the wine (and water) into each chalice then.

My parish would have to prepare six to seven chalices, depending upon which Mass was being offered. The priest could pour the wine from the flaggon after accepting the gifts, but I’m not sure the priests would go for that. I like the idea of the chalices being prepared ahead of time and only the pour the priest’s chalice at the alter. However, I’m not so sure that transporting a tray of six filled chalices to the alter would be a good idea, as an accident would be waiting to happen.

Br. Rich, I like your idea of revisiting communion under both kinds, but just a couple of years ago, the parish/diocese made a commitment to offer communion under both kinds at ALL Masses.
 
The problem I see with filling 8,9,10 chalices is this. They are not usually chalices to begin with. They are actually “wine glasses” for the most part. A Chalice should have a weighted base to help keep it from tipping over The base should be about twice the diameterof the cup. The inside of the cup that comes into contact with the Blood of Christ must be gold plated. You might get three chalices on a Corporal along with the Paten that is supposed to be used for the Mass host and ciborium containing the additional hosts.

What your diosese did is well IMO not right because it goes against the Norm. The norm is Communion under the form of bread and the option is under both forms. The norm has never been Communion under both forms.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
What your diosese did is well IMO not right because it goes against the Norm. The norm is Communion under the form of bread and the option is under both forms. The norm has never been Communion under both forms.
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You’ll get no argument from me. Personally, I would like to see communion under both kinds offered only on special days (like Christmas and Easter) and major feast days.
 
My understanding was that RS wasn’t actually anything new, and that everything in it could be found elsewhere…this was just being specific as to the abuses.

Is this correct? If so, where can I find the other instruction that forbids the pouring of the consecrated wine?

In Him, through her,
PIo Magnus
 
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ysicmg:
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PioMagnus:
The new G.I.R.M forbids this? Could I get the section please?

sorry
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it is in the new instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum not the GIRM. :o
  1. However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.
Interesting, in my parish we have at least 36 EMHC’s due to the large amount of people and the logistics of our church. Of those we have 24 cup ministers. I wonder how long it would take to pour all of that wine before the consecration took place? Our priest is serving the Body to the EMHC’s while the Blood is being poured into the cups. It seems the only way to do it. Our parish is built like a stadium which I know many son’t like, but I can’t change that. It is also two stories.
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RichT:
Interesting, in my parish we have at least 36 EMHC’s due to the large amount of people and the logistics of our church. Of those we have 24 cup ministers. I wonder how long it would take to pour all of that wine before the consecration took place? Our priest is serving the Body to the EMHC’s while the Blood is being poured into the cups. It seems the only way to do it. Our parish is built like a stadium which I know many son’t like, but I can’t change that. It is also two stories.
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That really is not a problem. I once served as a Extraordinary Minister of Communion during a Mass for 90,000 people at Mile High stadium in Denver during the Holy Fathers WYD in 1993. Communion really didn’t take more than 15-25 minutes to distribute at the most. With the Body of Christ only. Your parish needs to really reconsider this.
 
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PioMagnus:
The new G.I.R.M forbids this? Could I get the section please?
I mentioned that you couldn’t do it to my pastor citing Redemptionis Sacramentum. He claimed that R.S. wasn’t active in our diocese yet.
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It would have been ideal for you to inquire, **“When will obedience to the pope ‘become active,’ Father?” **😉

**There is nothing “new” in Redemptionis Sacramentum. It is all a reiteration of previous instructions which have not been followed to date.**If the past instructions were being followed, there would not have been a need to issue Redemptionis Sacramentum.

The Vatican decided to tackle the most heinous liturgical abuses: those committed during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
Notice the sub-title of Redemptionis Sacramentum: "On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist."

The GIRM is a step-by-step instruction on the Mass. It doesn’t list “don’ts” but rather “do’s.”
I scanned it on the USCCB website usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.htm and didn’t see any prohibition (not surprisingly).

Continued…
 
But more importantly, I read the preamble of *Redemptionis Sacramentum: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

*In order that especially in the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy the Church might duly safeguard so great a mystery in our own time as well, the Supreme Pontiff has mandated that this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, should prepare this Instruction treating of certain matters pertaining to the discipline of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Those things found in this Instruction are therefore to be read in the continuity with the above-mentioned Encyclical Letter, Ecclesia de Eucharistia http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/_INDEX.HTM.

It is not at all the intention here to prepare a compendium of the norms regarding the Most Holy Eucharist, but rather, to take up within this Instruction some elements of liturgical norms that have been previously expounded or laid down and even today remain in force in order to assure a deeper appreciation of the liturgical norms; to establish certain norms by which those earlier ones are explained and complemented; and also to set forth for Bishops, as well as for Priests, Deacons and all the lay Christian faithful, how each should carry them out in accordance with his own responsibilities and the means at his disposal.

[3.] The norms contained in the present Instruction are to be understood as pertaining to liturgical matters in the Roman Rite, and, mutatis mutandis, in the other Rites of the Latin Church that are duly acknowledged by law.

[4.] … it is not possible to be silent about the abuses, even quite grave ones, against the nature of the Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as the tradition and the authority of the Church, which in our day not infrequently plague liturgical celebrations in one ecclesial environment or another. In some places the perpetration of liturgical abuses has become almost habitual, a fact which obviously cannot be allowed and must cease.
 
**[5.] The observance of the norms published by the authority of the Church requires conformity of thought and of word, of external action and of the application of the heart. A merely external observation of norms would obviously be contrary to the nature of the Sacred Liturgy, in which Christ himself wishes to gather his Church, so that together with himself she will be “one body and one spirit”. For this reason, external action must be illuminated by faith and charity, which unite us with Christ and with one another and engender love for the poor and the abandoned. The liturgical words and rites, moreover, are a faithful expression, matured over the centuries, of the understanding of Christ, and they teach us to think as he himself does; by conforming our minds to these words, we raise our hearts to the Lord. All that is said in this Instruction is directed toward such a conformity of our own understanding with that of Christ, as expressed in the words and the rites of the Liturgy.

…God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right. This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.

[8.] It is therefore to be noted with great sadness that “ecumenical initiatives which are well-intentioned, nevertheless indulge at times in Eucharistic practices contrary to the discipline by which the Church expresses her faith”. Yet the Eucharist “is too great a gift to tolerate ambiguity or depreciation”. It is therefore necessary that some things be corrected…

**Funny, but this doesn’t sound “optional” to me! (And my own parish and diocese are also guilty of avoiding implementing RS! My pastor says he is awaiting “official word”!!!)

Pax Christi. <><
 
Thanks for the info.

Anything else you have to add I would apreciate.

In Him, through her,
Pio Magnus
 
Br. Rich SFO:
That really is not a problem. I once served as a Extraordinary Minister of Communion during a Mass for 90,000 people at Mile High stadium in Denver during the Holy Fathers WYD in 1993. Communion really didn’t take more than 15-25 minutes to distribute at the most. With the Body of Christ only. Your parish needs to really reconsider this.
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Reconsider what? The cups are usually all empty or really close to being empty. Using less cups would mean some would not receive both species. Also, our parish is two stories built stadium style with sections. There are very small walkways and we would have issues with people tripping over each other as well as traffic jams. The original question was in regards to the wine being consecrated in the flagon’s. Are you suggesting we eliminate the precious Blood? That doesn’t seem right. And since it wont happen that way, I don’t really see any other way to do it. One other thing, considering the amount of precious Blood that is consumed, it would take some monster size chalices if we elected to use less cups. Our pastor believes in serving everyone, so we don’t break the host, and we make sure there is enough Blood for everyone.
 
For years the Precious Blood wasn’t given to the people as people were falling for the heresy that you must receive under both species to have fully received Christ.

I would say that this heresy is cropping up again in many places, and there may be a time again when the populous will not, and should not be given the Precious Blood in order to prevent them, “Drinking to their own damnation.”

In Him, through her,
Pio Magnus
 
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RichT:
Interesting, in my parish we have at least 36 EMHC’s due to the large amount of people and the logistics of our church. Of those we have 24 cup ministers. I wonder how long it would take to pour all of that wine before the consecration took place? Our priest is serving the Body to the EMHC’s while the Blood is being poured into the cups. It seems the only way to do it. Our parish is built like a stadium which I know many son’t like, but I can’t change that. It is also two stories.
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This is so ironic: Let me guess ~ your parish uses EMHCs “so that the Mass will not be unduly prolonged” as there are great numbers of the faithful.

(However, EMHCs are not to be habitually used, but only in extra-ordinary situations.)

It is not required that Holy Communion be offered under both species.

So, it appears that having 24 EMHCs to distribute the Precious Blood actually takes more time and causes more liturgical abuses than if less EMHCs were used and only the Hosts were distributed.

Your parish is creating a situation whereby so many EMHC are “needed.”

This “need” could be lessened by offering only the Host, which is completely permitted, and even encouraged by the Church.

If I might inquire, while Father is administering the Hosts to the EMHC’s, just who is pouring the Precious Blood into chalices?!!!
 
As far as I know, through the centuries the consuming of both species has come and gone. Most recently, it is returning as we have observed. It has never been the “norm” to serve only one species. Jesus served both species at the Last Supper and it was thus until later on in history. Rites other than the Latin have always served both species.

As for pouring water into both the Chalice belonging to the priest and all the other chalices containing wine, this is not to be done. There should only be water poured into the priest’s chalice. I even remember at one point there being restrictions as to the amount - nine drops I believe. It has a mystical significance that belongs to the Consecration. All the other chalices used containing wine need not and should not have this water added to them, period. This would amount to a “double” or more, Consecration act which is not permitted.

Personally I prefer Communion under both species and receive both whenever possible. Like most other things in our day, we lack proper catechesis in this area and it is sorely over due for implementation. It wouldn’t be a bad idea for all adult Catholics to get more familiar with the rubrics for the Mass. It can only make you a better Catholic to do so and you will “get” more out of the Mass by deepening your understanding of this, the greatest prayer of the Church.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
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