consecration to mary?

[boatofcar]

I would have to disagree with position completely. It seems as though you misunderstand the three levels of reverence. Dulia, hyperdulia, and latria have nothing to do with what you think a Saint, celestial being, or God can physically or spiritually do. They refer to the level of reverence that one shows to the aforementioned entities. So thinking that Saint Michael can actually, physically destroy a demon who is near you is perfectly acceptable and in no way idolatrous.

God has given the Saints in heaven power to help us as members of the Body of Christ. Obviously that comes from God and if He willed that they not help, then they would of course be unable to intervene. But just as God allows you to wake up each and every morning, so does he permit the other living members of His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to help us far beyond just praying for us.

Please show me where this is in the Catechism.

 

[Immacolata]

I would have to disagree with position completely. It seems as though you misunderstand the three levels of reverence. Dulia, hyperdulia, and latria have nothing to do with what you think a Saint, celestial being, or God can physically or spiritually do. They refer to the level of reverence that one shows to the aforementioned entities. So thinking that Saint Michael can actually, physically destroy a demon who is near you is perfectly acceptable and in no way idolatrous.

God has given the Saints in heaven power to help us as members of the Body of Christ. Obviously that comes from God and if He willed that they not help, then they would of course be unable to intervene. But just as God allows you to wake up each and every morning, so does he permit the other living members of His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to help us far beyond just praying for us.

I agree with you; I feel the Lord gave power to Saints to help the other members of the Body of Christ as He sees fit by the Divine Will. The Saints cannot override God, of course, but when God wills them to help the members of His Catholic Church, they can do much more than pray for us. They can help us, lead us back on the right path, and guide us to the salvation of our soul.

 

[Khalid]

I would have to disagree with position completely. It seems as though you misunderstand the three levels of reverence. Dulia, hyperdulia, and latria have nothing to do with what you think a Saint, celestial being, or God can physically or spiritually do. They refer to the level of reverence that one shows to the aforementioned entities. So thinking that Saint Michael can actually, physically destroy a demon who is near you is perfectly acceptable and in no way idolatrous.

God has given the Saints in heaven power to help us as members of the Body of Christ. Obviously that comes from God and if He willed that they not help, then they would of course be unable to intervene. But just as God allows you to wake up each and every morning, so does he permit the other living members of His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to help us far beyond just praying for us.

You’ve misinterpreted me. Dulia et al. are our attitudes, nothing to do with who we pray to; we are agreed. The saints act only through the power of God; we are agreed. St Michael can destroy a demon because he has been created by God with this power and for this purpose, along with the purpose to praise him; we are agreed.

The only place I disagree categorically is that a departed Saint in the Church Triumphant can help us in any way other than prayer on our behalf: as was quoted earlier, Jas 5:16 I believe, “the prayer of the righteous is powerful” (I paraphrased this in my original post), and there are none more righteous and pure than the Church Triumphant. A saint “answering” our prayer is actually God’s answer to that saint’s prayer on our behalf, as I stated. (With St Michael, this gets in to not prayer or worship, but angelology [being that angels and men were created differently, with different innate capacities, and for different mediate purposes, even if the teleological/final cause of each is to adore God], which isn’t my specialty, so I’d have to dig out The Celestial Hierarchy by Dionysius the Areopagite and the relevant parts of the Summa Theologiae of the great Saint Aquinas.)

We may just express it differently. I attempt to express what I say in terms of theological precision (it is my training), even if my writing can be Byzantine and confusing. (I have a very Thomist-monergistic “crypto-Calvinist”, phaw] view of grace, and, it seems, by extension, this, as well.) You seem to speak from the practice of piety. As the Orthodox say, “He who prays truly is a true theologian, and a true theologian is he who prays truly”. Needless to say, the Orthodox Church gave me the boot for my bad theology *

*More for my categorical rejection of the essence-energies distinction (and the acceptance of Papal primacy, purgatory, and Thomism. It took me a while to work out the filioque, though.).

 

[KLJM12]

You’ve misinterpreted me. Dulia et al. are our attitudes, nothing to do with who we pray to; we are agreed. The saints act only through the power of God; we are agreed. St Michael can destroy a demon because he has been created by God with this power and for this purpose, along with the purpose to praise him; we are agreed.

The only place I disagree categorically is that a departed Saint in the Church Triumphant can help us in any way other than prayer on our behalf: as was quoted earlier, Jas 5:16 I believe, “the prayer of the righteous is powerful” (I paraphrased this in my original post), and there are none more righteous and pure than the Church Triumphant. A saint “answering” our prayer is actually God’s answer to that saint’s prayer on our behalf, as I stated. (With St Michael, this gets in to not prayer or worship, but angelology [being that angels and men were created differently, with different innate capacities, and for different mediate purposes, even if the teleological/final cause of each is to adore God], which isn’t my specialty, so I’d have to dig out The Celestial Hierarchy by Dionysius the Areopagite and the relevant parts of the Summa Theologiae of the great Saint Aquinas.)

We may just express it differently. I attempt to express what I say in terms of theological precision (it is my training), even if my writing can be Byzantine and confusing. (I have a very Thomist-monergistic “crypto-Calvinist”, phaw] view of grace, and, it seems, by extension, this, as well.) You seem to speak from the practice of piety. As the Orthodox say, “He who prays truly is a true theologian, and a true theologian is he who prays truly”. Needless to say, the Orthodox Church gave me the boot for my bad theology *

*More for my categorical rejection of the essence-energies distinction (and the acceptance of Papal primacy, purgatory, and Thomism. It took me a while to work out the filioque, though.).

I apologize for misinterpreting what you were trying to say.

And I would agree that we are trying to convey the same message. I agree with you whole-heartedly. Of course the Saints can only act through the power given to them by God and not independently of Him. I was only trying to say that they can actually be sent to us for help, albeit because God has sent them as an answer to our prayers, which they would have passed along to God. You just said it more precisely (as you mention).

Once again, my apologies if I sounded smug or condescending and skewed what you were trying to say. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[KLJM12]

You’ve misinterpreted me. Dulia et al. are our attitudes, nothing to do with who we pray to; we are agreed. The saints act only through the power of God; we are agreed. St Michael can destroy a demon because he has been created by God with this power and for this purpose, along with the purpose to praise him; we are agreed.

The only place I disagree categorically is that a departed Saint in the Church Triumphant can help us in any way other than prayer on our behalf: as was quoted earlier, Jas 5:16 I believe, “the prayer of the righteous is powerful” (I paraphrased this in my original post), and there are none more righteous and pure than the Church Triumphant. A saint “answering” our prayer is actually God’s answer to that saint’s prayer on our behalf, as I stated. (With St Michael, this gets in to not prayer or worship, but angelology [being that angels and men were created differently, with different innate capacities, and for different mediate purposes, even if the teleological/final cause of each is to adore God], which isn’t my specialty, so I’d have to dig out The Celestial Hierarchy by Dionysius the Areopagite and the relevant parts of the Summa Theologiae of the great Saint Aquinas.)

We may just express it differently. I attempt to express what I say in terms of theological precision (it is my training), even if my writing can be Byzantine and confusing. (I have a very Thomist-monergistic “crypto-Calvinist”, phaw] view of grace, and, it seems, by extension, this, as well.) You seem to speak from the practice of piety. As the Orthodox say, “He who prays truly is a true theologian, and a true theologian is he who prays truly”. Needless to say, the Orthodox Church gave me the boot for my bad theology *

*More for my categorical rejection of the essence-energies distinction (and the acceptance of Papal primacy, purgatory, and Thomism. It took me a while to work out the filioque, though.).

And one more thing…very nice explanation here. I am completely incapable of expressing myself like this. You are definitely beyond me intellectually in this regard.

 

[LegoGE1947]

And one more thing…very nice explanation here. I am completely incapable of expressing myself like this. You are definitely beyond me intellectually in this regard.

I second that. I am fairly capable of expressing myself but this is a bit over my head intellectually. Thanks for the explanation. I do know that adoration is reserved for God alone. and then there are 2 words that express veneration which can be aimed at the saints, angels and Mary. (dulia and hyperdulia)

 

[fred_conty]

i was reading a website the other day which warned against consecrations and praying directly to saints. it did make sense the way he presented his argument. i was just wondering if its true though. is it dangerous to pray directly to saints?

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott​

It is permissible and profitable to venerate the Saints in Heaven, and to invoke their intercession. (De fide.)

The Saints in Heaven also can come to the help of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercession. (Sent. communis.)

The Souls in Purgatory can intercede for other members of the Mystical Body. (Sent. probabilis.)​

Jesus taught us that he was the vine and we the branches, that we all live in one another and have a common life together with a central vine. We affect one another because we are a part of one another.

We have one baptism of the Holy Spirit. The life of the Holy Spirit flows thru all of our spiritual veins. We are one in Him in life and in truth and in power.

We have examples of the saints who have healed people physically and spiritually.
Here are just a few saints who have worked miracles.

Alphonsus Ligurori
Joseph of Cupertino
Lydwine of Schiedam
Martin De Porres
Catherine Dei Ricci
Mary of Agreda
Francis Of Paola
Drogo
Anthony of Padua9
Peter Regalado
Francis Xavier
Francis Xavier Bianchi
Vincent Pallotti
John Edward Lamy
Paul of Moll
John Bosco
Padre Pio
Teresa of Avila
Teresa of the Child Jesus
Maria Villani of Naples
Gerard Majella
Anthony Mary Claret
Martin de Porres
Gemma Galgani
Dominic of Jesu Maria
Thomas of Cori
Mary of Jesus Crucified
Maria of the Passion
Agnes of Montepulciano
Clara of Rimini
Francis of Posadas
John Joseph of the Cross
John of St. Facond
Lutgarde of Aywieres
Lutgarde
Margaret of Metola and Castello
Dominic
Philip Neri
Flora of Beaulieu
Thomas Aquinas
Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney
Catherine of Siena
Rose of Viterbo
Rita of Cascia
Pope Benedict XIV
Polycarp
Benedict
Valery
Mary of Oignies
Hermann
Ida of Louvain
Dominica of Paradiso
Catlina de Cardona
Joan Marie of the Cross of Rovereto
Mary of the Angels
Veronica Giuliani
Paul of the Cross
Mary Frances of the Five Wounds
Marie Celine of the Presentation
Anna Maria Taigi
John of the Cross
Mary Martha Chambon
Charles of Sezze
Clare of Montefalco
Margaret Mary Alacoque
Michael of the Saints
Margaret of Citta-DI-Castello
Francis De Sales
Jane Frances DE Chantal
Ammon the Great
Seraphin of Montegranaro
Bentivoglia DE Bonis
Pere Lamy
Colette
Germaine Cousin
Martin de Porres
Peter of Alcantara
Catherine of Racconigi
Francis Solana
Raymond of Penafot
Averez of Cardova
Jane of Signa
Hyacinth
Gonsalvo of Amarante
Rita of Cascia
Gaspar del Bufalo
Joseph Benedict Cottolengo
Isidore the Farmer

Here is an amazing story.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Calanda.pdf

 

[FCEGM]

Please show me where this is in the Catechism.

Paragraph 5. The Communion of Saints

946 After confessing “the holy catholic Church,” the Apostles’ Creed adds “the communion of saints.” In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"479 The communion of saints is the Church.

947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."480 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund."481

948 The term “communion of saints” therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and “among holy persons (sancti).”

Sancta sanctis! (“God’s holy gifts for God’s holy people”) is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. The faithful (sancti) are fed by Christ’s holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.

I. COMMUNION IN SPIRITUAL GOODS

949 In the primitive community of Jerusalem, the disciples "devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers."482

Communion in the faith. The faith of the faithful is the faith of the Church, received from the apostles. Faith is a treasure of life which is enriched by being shared.

950 Communion of the sacraments. "The fruit of all the sacraments belongs to all the faithful. All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church. The communion of saints must be understood as the communion of the sacraments. . . . The name ‘communion’ can be applied to all of them, for they unite us to God. . . . But this name is better suited to the Eucharist than to any other, because it is primarily the Eucharist that brings this communion about."483

951 Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the Church, the Holy Spirit “distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank” for the building up of the Church.484 Now, "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."485

952 "They had everything in common."486 "Everything the true Christian has is to be regarded as a good possessed in common with everyone else. All Christians should be ready and eager to come to the help of the needy . . . and of their neighbors in want."487 A Christian is a steward of the Lord’s goods.488

953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."489 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."490 "Charity does not insist on its own way."491 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

954 The three states of the Church. “When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is”’:492

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.493

955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495

Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496
I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:

We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499

 

[DebChris]

During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the priest steps back from the altar to make room for the communion of Saints. They join us in the Mass.