Conservation of mass

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Trevor_Stamm

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Hello all,

Does conservation of mass law apply to the creation account? I know this applies to a closed system but is it concluded or still in debate that the universe is a close system? I was under the impression that the second law of thermodynamics supports the claims of a beginning of the universe and the “infinite universe” is contradictory to law. Also, Was reading that the universe is expanding, so if there’s expansion of space doesn’t this prove an “infinite” argument wrong?

Pax
 
The infinite universe theory is not contradictory to the second law of thermodynamics because all the second law would indicate is that the universe had a beginning, and the infinite universe theory has to do with the idea of infinite space, not infinite time.

It is useful to understand that infinite universe theory does not involve there being an infinite amount of matter/stars/planets but just an infinite amount of space. The universe expanding simply refers to all of the galaxies getting further and further apart into a supposedly infinite amount of space. The reason space is believed to be infinite is pretty unscientific, it that it mainly relies on the idea that we can look in any direction and see absolutely nothing outside of the known universe and we continue to expand into that nothing. It could be entirely possible that their is another “Universe” out there so far away that it is impossibly to detect or that we are actually contained in some form of finite space that we don’t really understand, but the simplest and most sensible idea anyone can come up with is infinite space to expand into so we stick with that rather than entertain 100 different crazy theories.

Conservation of mass doesn’t mean anything towards creation origin or scientific origin since they both have explanations of sorts.
 
God is INFINITE!

To Him, YOUR laws of physics are a mere bag of shells.

Why should God, the INFINITE, give a single care about your labels?

[What if He asks you to explain where gravity comes from? What would your answer be?]

[Or maybe an easier question: tell Him how that ring of Saturn got braided.]
 
PatrickSebast said:
The infinite universe theory is not contradictory to the second law of thermodynamics because all the second law would indicate is that the universe had a beginning, and the infinite universe theory has to do with the idea of infinite space, not infinite time.

It is useful to understand that infinite universe theory does not involve there being an infinite amount of matter/stars/planets but just an infinite amount of space. The universe expanding simply refers to all of the galaxies getting further and further apart into a supposedly infinite amount of space. The reason space is believed to be infinite is pretty unscientific, it that it mainly relies on the idea that we can look in any direction and see absolutely nothing outside of the known universe and we continue to expand into that nothing. It could be entirely possible that their is another “Universe” out there so far away that it is impossibly to detect or that we are actually contained in some form of finite space that we don’t really understand, but the simplest and most sensible idea anyone can come up with is infinite space to expand into so we stick with that rather than entertain 100 different crazy theories.

Conservation of mass doesn’t mean anything towards creation origin or scientific origin since they both have explanations of sorts.
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Interesting. Was under the impression that the infinite theory (steady-state) involved energy and matter in the universe, but it’s only contained to the explanation of space? Not refuting you here, but I just read different here. But with this definition here, it violates the SLOT and the findings of the cosmic background radiation shot it down. Never mind there then 🙂

Well since science observes that energy and mass cannot be created nor destroyed (FLOT / Conservation of mass), the only way finiteness can come into existence out of non-existence is for an uncaused mover, who is not bound by law, is to initiate the first cause. I don’t see how this has a lot to do with the point of origin. Maybe I’m missing something, always willing to learn and to correct fallacies.
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
Interesting. Was under the impression that the infinite theory (steady-state) involved energy and matter in the universe, but it’s only contained to the explanation of space? Not refuting you here, but I just read different here. But with this definition here, it violates the SLOT and the findings of the cosmic background radiation shot it down. Never mind there then 🙂

Well since science observes that energy and mass cannot be created nor destroyed (FLOT / Conservation of mass), the only way finiteness can come into existence out of non-existence is for an uncaused mover, who is not bound by law, is to initiate the first cause. I don’t see how this has a lot to do with the point of origin. Maybe I’m missing something, always willing to learn and to correct fallacies.
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Oh I wasn’t speaking of Steady State theory in particular, just popularly accepted version of what “infinite universe” means. Steady State theory specifically does state different things with regards to the amount of matter an energy, but Steady State theory isn’t very good or well accepted in most academic circles so I assumed you wouldn’t be talking about that. Cosmology is a pretty deep field with lots of theories and an unfortunate lack of vantage points or data gathering opportunities. I just gave a basic overview of a simple and commonly accepted idea, even just inside the big bang theory there are multiple branches that predict different things. Really if your reason for learning is offer proofs for creation from God then you aren’t going to get much of anywhere since it is extremely easy for someone to just hop over to another theory if you convince them theirs is nonsensical. If you are just curious you are better off reading wiki acticles, getting a text book, and/or taking a class. Asking random people on a message board is just asking to be misinformed.
 
PatrickSebast said:
Oh I wasn’t speaking of Steady State theory in particular, just popularly accepted version of what “infinite universe” means. Steady State theory specifically does state different things with regards to the amount of matter an energy, but Steady State theory isn’t very good or well accepted in most academic circles so I assumed you wouldn’t be talking about that. Cosmology is a pretty deep field with lots of theories and an unfortunate lack of vantage points or data gathering opportunities. I just gave a basic overview of a simple and commonly accepted idea, even just inside the big bang theory there are multiple branches that predict different things. Really if your reason for learning is offer proofs for creation from God then you aren’t going to get much of anywhere since it is extremely easy for someone to just hop over to another theory if you convince them theirs is nonsensical. If you are just curious you are better off reading wiki acticles, getting a text book, and/or taking a class. Asking random people on a message board is just asking to be misinformed.
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Understood 🙂

Was looking for articles online for the rebuttal to this argument, having little luck so just gathering the opinions here to better my understanding in this. Been doing a lot of reading on the different theories, guess my ulterior motive is just fortifying my belief :rolleyes:

Thank you.
 
Mostly they are a bunch of theories written by humans to attempt to explain what they do not understand.

God is INFINITE … how are we going to understand what may end up being the largest crossword puzzle in the Universe? Maybe the complexity was deliberately created by God just to keep us humans entertained as we try to figure it all out.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Mostly they are a bunch of theories written by humans to attempt to explain what they do not understand.

God is INFINITE … how are we going to understand what may end up being the largest crossword puzzle in the Universe? Maybe the complexity was deliberately created by God just to keep us humans entertained as we try to figure it all out.
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Oh I agree God is infinite and any explanation of an infinite being from a finite being can never truly be true, which is why my brain goes in ten different directions when reading about the Trinity in the Catechism 😛 . But I would say that the complexity of it all is a model for us to assent more freely to His will, it is a humbling experience to never truly know infiniteness from finiteness. My opinion at least.
 
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