Conservative and Traditional Catholicism Compared

[devotus]

Originally Posted by Malcolm McLean

Similarly the seeds of the Second Vatican Council fell only in some places on fertile ground.

But that goes to the quality of the soil, not the seed.

One can also assume that the church would have continued its Pre-VII growth in these areas w/o VII…

What can be said is that VII did no harm… Hardly a reason for rejoicing

 

[JKirkLVNV]

One can also assume that the church would have continued its Pre-VII growth in these areas w/o VII…

What can be said is that VII did no harm… Hardly a reason for rejoicing

I suppose that would be in accordance with what view one was determined to take. I believe that Vatican II was a success in its further explication of truth (always a cause for rejoicing). I don’t think it has been a success in it’s implementation.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I suppose that would be in accordance with what view one was determined to take. By that I mean that I’m going to give an ecumenical council of the Church, validated by a Vicar of Christ on earth, the benefit of the doubt. I believe that Vatican II was a success in its further explication of truth (always a cause for rejoicing). I don’t think it has been a success in it’s implementation.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I suppose that would be in accordance with what view one was determined to take. I believe that Vatican II was a success in its further explication of truth (always a cause for rejoicing). I don’t think it has been a success in it’s implementation.

Sorry, what follows is an edited version of the above:

I suppose that would be in accordance with what view one was determined to take. By that I mean that I’m going to give an ecumenical council of the Church, validated by a Vicar of Christ on earth, the benefit of the doubt. I believe that Vatican II was a success in its further explication of truth (always a cause for rejoicing). I don’t think it has been a success in it’s implementation, or rather, that’s the appearance of things. In terms of Church time, 40 years is nothing. Councils are usually times of upheaval or so I have read.

And I don’t think it would be a safe assumption to think that the pre-VII Church would have continued without the upheavals suffered by the post VII Church (“suffered by” as opposed to “caused by”), as they were societal upheavals. Without VII, we could as easitly have seen a drop in vocations, mass attendance, etc.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

According to Canon Law, the heretic who manifests his heresy exteriorly is IPSO FACTO excommunicated and excluded from the Church.

This occurs without any declaratory sentence.

See here.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

And I don’t think it would be a safe assumption to think that the pre-VII Church would have continued without the upheavals suffered by the post VII Church (“suffered by” as opposed to “caused by”), as they were societal upheavals. Without VII, we could as easitly have seen a drop in vocations, mass attendance, etc.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

However no-one will understand that fallacy any more, because since Vatican II no one knows Latin.

 

[Cranch]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

However no-one will understand that fallacy any more, because since Vatican II no one knows Latin.

I found this comment almost ironic. JKirkLVNV may be correct and, with your quoting of the Latin proverb, I assume you agree. While not a case of “after this, therefore because of this”, you’ve touched on probably the closest thing to it regarding Vatican II. I mean, there was always one place any Catholic could hear Latin every week before Vatican II. It wasn’t society or the academy that banished Latin from the New Mass and almost completely supressed the Latin Mass. And although the decline in knowledge of Latin can be traced to before Vatican II, (even in the Church, see here) the stripping of Latin from its public worship by the one institution which most valued the language could be seen as the final nail in the coffin.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I guess it depends on your tolerance …

My conscience has led me to walk out of NO masses.

I would rather not participle in something that I feel in my heart is disrespecting the Lord – Even if Rome supports it.

And your conscience in Luthers day would have led you to walk out of the Latin Mass of his day–when in Rome you could often hear preists blasphem the Lord–when you could actually here them say–rather than the words of consecration–thou art bread and bread thou shalt remain…

Any Mass is subject to abuse. That aside could someone please explain what exactly this clown mass is? I’ve never heard of such a thing except on this forum but noone ever explains it–like it’s happening in every parish in every diocese around the country. Truthfully–I haven’t seen half the abuses described in these forums–and I live in a region of the country one would think would be ripe with them. But HELP what is a clown mass?

 

[bear06]

And your conscience in Luthers day would have led you to walk out of the Latin Mass of his day–when in Rome you could often hear preists blasphem the Lord–when you could actually here them say–rather than the words of consecration–thou art bread and bread thou shalt remain…

Any Mass is subject to abuse. That aside could someone please explain what exactly this clown mass is? I’ve never heard of such a thing except on this forum but noone ever explains it–like it’s happening in every parish in every diocese around the country. Truthfully–I haven’t seen half the abuses described in these forums–and I live in a region of the country one would think would be ripe with them. But HELP what is a clown mass?

Google it. You’ll pull up all you’ll ever want to see.

 

[devotus]

And your conscience in Luthers day would have led you to walk out of the Latin Mass of his day–when in Rome you could often hear preists blasphem the Lord–when you could actually here them say–rather than the words of consecration–thou art bread and bread thou shalt remain…

Yeah… you are right… But then it was a moral sin for a priest to change the mass

Any Mass is subject to abuse. That aside could someone please explain what exactly this clown mass is? I’ve never heard of such a thing except on this forum but noone ever explains it–like it’s happening in every parish in every diocese around the country. Truthfully–I haven’t seen half the abuses described in these forums–and I live in a region of the country one would think would be ripe with them. But HELP what is a clown mass?

youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA