Conservative episcopalians...Why are you staying?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jinc1019
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

jinc1019

Guest
Just curious…Why are some conservative Episcopalians staying in the Episcopal Church rather than leaving for the Catholic Church, a continuing Anglican church, or the Anglican Church in North America?
 
jinc1019 said:
Just curious…Why are some conservative Episcopalians staying in the Episcopal Church rather than leaving for the Catholic Church, a continuing Anglican church, or the Anglican Church in North America?
Click to expand...
🍿

GKC
 
Different reasons for different people. Some are staying because they grew up with it and would be uncomfortable leaving. Some others are staying because they believe everything their church is teaching no matter how contradictory to the Bible it is. The list goes on I’m sure as that was a very complex question.
 
Unity over against the truth? I’m sure its more out of love and for not dividing their church, though when you have Anglican churches like Saint Mathews here in Auckland publishing articles in which they say (paraphrasing here) “Our church has no central authority nor is there anything we have to agree upon.” To what conclusion will communion with such churches entail? Liberalism can only grow stronger in the anglican communion since more and more are accepting the wisdom of the times against scripture and tradition.
 
ChibiViolet said:
Different reasons for different people. Some are staying because they grew up with it and would be uncomfortable leaving. Some others are staying because they believe everything their church is teaching no matter how contradictory to the Bible it is. The list goes on I’m sure as that was a very complex question.
Click to expand...
Well I am not referring to the majority of Episcopal laity, only the conservative individuals who theologically line up more closely with the denominations I mentioned in the original post.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Unity over against the truth? I’m sure its more out of love and for not dividing their church, though when you have Anglican churches like Saint Mathews here in Auckland publishing articles in which they say (paraphrasing here) “Our church has no central authority nor is there anything we have to agree upon.” To what conclusion will communion with such churches entail? Liberalism can only grow stronger in the anglican communion since more and more are accepting the wisdom of the times against scripture and tradition.
Click to expand...
In some parishes that is true, in others it is less true, and in some it is not true at all…at least based on what I have seen.
 
jinc1019 said:
Just curious…Why are some conservative Episcopalians staying in the Episcopal Church rather than leaving for the Catholic Church, a continuing Anglican church, or the Anglican Church in North America?
Click to expand...
I’m not Anglican, but I have talked to conservative Anglicans about this and read Anglican blog posts about it.

I think one reason is that despite the heretical actions of TEC leadership, many traditional Episcopalians feel that it would be schismatic to leave.

Others feel that they have been called to remain as a biblical witness.

Others would leave but neither the Catholic Church, the CC’s Anglican ordinariate, a continuing Anglican church, or the ACNA are satisfactory options for them. Any Catholic Church option would only be viable for Anglo-Catholics. The continuum is seen by many as too sectarian and focused on petty jurisdictional squabbles. The ACNA for many has several issues: they are still in the process of getting their jurisdictional house in order, some Episcopalians have issues with their provincial structure, and others have issue with the fact they do not have a province wide policy on women’s ordination. The ACNA does not ordain women bishops, but it lets each diocese decide if it will ordain women priests and deacons.
 
Speaking as an Anglican in the Church of England, I think we have a slightly different situation from the Episcopal Church but we are still having problems. Why do I stay?

I think Anglicanism, properly understood, is true to the faith of the Apostles, the Church Fathers and the early Ecumenical councils of the undivided Church.

If Anglicans don’t like the changes, then surely going to the Roman Catholic Church because it is more ‘conservative’ would be wrong? The Church of Rome is not merely like going to another ‘denomination’, it is entering a completely different world. There are Church of England priests I am aware of who have announced their intention to join the Ordinariate, who are still living off Anglican stipends and acting like priests even though apparently they do not believe they are priests any more. That is a sham.
 
The jump from Episcopal to Catholic is not as small as this op makes it out to be. There is no Anglican church in my small community. Im currently attending a Nazerine church but mostly due to lack of options.
 
ltwin said:
I’m not Anglican, but I have talked to conservative Anglicans about this and read Anglican blog posts about it.

I think one reason is that despite the heretical actions of TEC leadership, many traditional Episcopalians feel that it would be schismatic to leave.

Others feel that they have been called to remain as a biblical witness.

Others would leave but neither the Catholic Church, the CC’s Anglican ordinariate, a continuing Anglican church, or the ACNA are satisfactory options for them. Any Catholic Church option would only be viable for Anglo-Catholics. The continuum is seen by many as too sectarian and focused on petty jurisdictional squabbles. The ACNA for many has several issues: they are still in the process of getting their jurisdictional house in order, some Episcopalians have issues with their provincial structure, and others have issue with the fact they do not have a province wide policy on women’s ordination. The ACNA does not ordain women bishops, but it lets each diocese decide if it will ordain women priests and deacons.
Click to expand...
Very interesting stuff. Your assertions are rather persuasive, and obviously the answer to this question is going to be different for everyone who is actually Anglican, but even with the problems you mentioned, wouldn’t a conservative Anglican rather deal with “petty jurisdictional squabbles” or issues relating to the provincial structure than deal with the kind of lunacy associated with some of the TEC’s leadership?
 
Indifferently said:
Speaking as an Anglican in the Church of England, I think we have a slightly different situation from the Episcopal Church but we are still having problems. Why do I stay?

I think Anglicanism, properly understood, is true to the faith of the Apostles, the Church Fathers and the early Ecumenical councils of the undivided Church.

If Anglicans don’t like the changes, then surely going to the Roman Catholic Church because it is more ‘conservative’ would be wrong? The Church of Rome is not merely like going to another ‘denomination’, it is entering a completely different world. There are Church of England priests I am aware of who have announced their intention to join the Ordinariate, who are still living off Anglican stipends and acting like priests even though apparently they do not believe they are priests any more. That is a sham.
Click to expand...
I think you bring up some very interesting points…and I greatly appreciate you lending your opinions here. I don’t disagree with your assessment of some priests in the Church of England either.

I do have a couple of questions I hope you will consider answering. First, I am not anywhere near as informed regarding this issue in England, but I imagine that there are some more conservative Anglican break offs that do exist similar to the ones in the United States. Why not join them instead of staying in the Church of England?

A second question is: What will you do if the Church of England continues to digress into what the Episcopal Church is now?

A third question: From your perspective, does the Church of England have any hope of rebounding in the future, even if this is the very distant future? Or is it on an unstoppable path to utter ruin?
 
Syele said:
The jump from Episcopal to Catholic is not as small as this op makes it out to be. There is no Anglican church in my small community. Im currently attending a Nazerine church but mostly due to lack of options.
Click to expand...
I didn’t mean to give the impression it was an easy jump. On these forums, I absolutely understand that better than most. But that doesn’t explain why conservatives don’t leave for other more conservative Anglican denominations.

You did bring up the very valid and often forgotten point that in some places, there are simply no options to do that. In Chicago, where I live, there are 0 regularly operating Anglican Church in North America, Anglican Catholic Church, or Anglican Church in America parishes. There are some that are trying to build a regular ministry, but at this point, there really isn’t anything. There are, however, many Episcopal Churches, United Methodist Churches, PC USA, etc. With a city as large as Chicago, you would think there would be at least 1 of the more conservative Anglican churches regularly operating…But there really aren’t. There are 1 or 2 that have services on Saturday nights, and 1 that I found that has mass on Sunday…but most of them don’t even have their own church buildings.
 
jinc1019 said:
I think you bring up some very interesting points…and I greatly appreciate you lending your opinions here. I don’t disagree with your assessment of some priests in the Church of England either.

I do have a couple of questions I hope you will consider answering. First, I am not anywhere near as informed regarding this issue in England, but I imagine that there are some more conservative Anglican break offs that do exist similar to the ones in the United States. Why not join them instead of staying in the Church of England?

A second question is: What will you do if the Church of England continues to digress into what the Episcopal Church is now?

A third question: From your perspective, does the Church of England have any hope of rebounding in the future, even if this is the very distant future? Or is it on an unstoppable path to utter ruin?
Click to expand...
1 The Church has managed to keep conservatives in largely because of what is called ‘alternative Episcopal oversight’, which amounts to parishes which disapprove of women’s ordination coming under the authority of a so called ‘flying bishop’ who is not their local diocesan but shares their views.

2 if it continues on the liberal trajectory without serious compromise it will provoke decline, schism and disestablishment.

3 The decline is reversible, I hope. If they retain provision for conservatives then we have enough reason to stay. There is the added loyalty aspect here - many Christians here see the Church of England as much a part of their national identity as the flag and the Monarchy.

We also have the trump card that our senior layperson and Supreme Governor, Queen Elizabeth, is a seriously devout Christian, and has a special TV message at Christmas where she explains the continuing importance of the Gospel. I doubt she will allow us to go totally apostate.

Add to that, that the 1662 Prayer Book continues to be the official standard of doctrine and practice in the Church, and it would take an Act of Parliament to overturn it.

Plus, most of the world’s practising Anglicans live in Africa, which is very conservative and orthodox. If Canterbury falters we have this nascent locus of Christianity to fall back on, at the least.

I am cautious, but it is not all doom and gloom in the Anglican world.
 
jinc1019 said:
Very interesting stuff. Your assertions are rather persuasive, and obviously the answer to this question is going to be different for everyone who is actually Anglican, but even with the problems you mentioned, wouldn’t a conservative Anglican rather deal with “petty jurisdictional squabbles” or issues relating to the provincial structure than deal with the kind of lunacy associated with some of the TEC’s leadership?
Click to expand...
Some of us, yes.

GKC
 
jinc1019 said:
I think you bring up some very interesting points…and I greatly appreciate you lending your opinions here. I don’t disagree with your assessment of some priests in the Church of England either.

I do have a couple of questions I hope you will consider answering. First, I am not anywhere near as informed regarding this issue in England, but I imagine that there are some more conservative Anglican break offs that do exist similar to the ones in the United States. Why not join them instead of staying in the Church of England?

A second question is: What will you do if the Church of England continues to digress into what the Episcopal Church is now?

A third question: From your perspective, does the Church of England have any hope of rebounding in the future, even if this is the very distant future? Or is it on an unstoppable path to utter ruin?
Click to expand...
There are very few analogues to the Continuum in Great Britain. The Free Church exists, low Church and reformed, similar to the Reformed Episcopal Church in this country. The REC is now in communion with the ACNA.

GKC
 
Indifferently said:
1 The Church has managed to keep conservatives in largely because of what is called ‘alternative Episcopal oversight’, which amounts to parishes which disapprove of women’s ordination coming under the authority of a so called ‘flying bishop’ who is not their local diocesan but shares their views.

2 if it continues on the liberal trajectory without serious compromise it will provoke decline, schism and disestablishment.

3 The decline is reversible, I hope. If they retain provision for conservatives then we have enough reason to stay. There is the added loyalty aspect here - many Christians here see the Church of England as much a part of their national identity as the flag and the Monarchy.

We also have the trump card that our senior layperson and Supreme Governor, Queen Elizabeth, is a seriously devout Christian, and has a special TV message at Christmas where she explains the continuing importance of the Gospel. I doubt she will allow us to go totally apostate.

Add to that, that the 1662 Prayer Book continues to be the official standard of doctrine and practice in the Church, and it would take an Act of Parliament to overturn it.

Plus, most of the world’s practising Anglicans live in Africa, which is very conservative and orthodox. If Canterbury falters we have this nascent locus of Christianity to fall back on, at the least.

I am cautious, but it is not all doom and gloom in the Anglican world.
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing these very important points. I greatly appreciate it!
 
GKC said:
There are very few analogues to the Continuum in Great Britain. The Free Church exists, low Church and reformed, similar to the Reformed Episcopal Church in this country. The REC is now in communion with the ACNA.

GKC
Click to expand...
Hi GKC,

I was just reading about the Reformed Episcopal Church yesterday so I can appreciate the analogy. I suppose the Church of England has yet to do something as extreme as the Episcopal Church. If they do, however, I think we could see more churches similar to the ACNA develop in England. I suppose this could be stunted somewhat by the whole national identity thing though…very different dynamic than here in the United States.
 
For me it is having to do the RCIA. It takes months and months of going through what I’ve already been taught. I honestly don’t have the time with all that is going on in my life to go to RCIA classes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top