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Indifferently
Guest
You are most welcome. This whole topic is something I personally have to wrestle with so I have a bit of a special interest in it!
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jinc1019
Guest
Great interview with the head of the largest Episcopal Church in America (over 8,000 members) who is orthodox and staying in the Episcopal Church.
christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/101-12.0.html?start=1
christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/101-12.0.html?start=1
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jinc1019
Guest
Even if one is a supporter of her revisions…There is no denying she is a terrible leader who has greatly damaged her church. Proof is hardly necessary in this forum, but in case someone stumbles in here one day not knowing what I mean…How about the fact that under her leadership, the Episcopal Church has spent millions of dollars in legal battles to win church properties from parishes trying to escape the Episcopal Church. Forgetting for a moment that those churches were, in some cases, the product of over a hundred years (or more) of hard work and sacrifice for the local Anglican community in the given area…The property, which the Episcopal Church was successful in seizing, now largely sits vacated or was sold off because while they won the property, no such congregation existed to occupy it. Truly incredible. This of course, leaving out the fact that the Episcopal Church then determined to sell off its own headquarters in New York City to help pay the bills…Just incredible.
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just_came_back
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I was reading an Episcopal forum and some guy, now I would say he might be a little extreme, states that all of the fights for property is for the EC to get control of said property to use down the road for the leaders liberal political agendas.
Wouldn’t shock me. I was REAL surprised when the Bishop of the Diocese of UPPER SC voted the pro-gay ordained ministers vote a few years back before he retired. In fact one retiring EC rector told me he felt betrayed by the bishop’s vote because he felt he did it and then got out as quickly as he could without having to answer to anybody.
Wouldn’t shock me. I was REAL surprised when the Bishop of the Diocese of UPPER SC voted the pro-gay ordained ministers vote a few years back before he retired. In fact one retiring EC rector told me he felt betrayed by the bishop’s vote because he felt he did it and then got out as quickly as he could without having to answer to anybody.
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GKC
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His observation is true, on a couple of levels. Though she (for example) seems to favor a patriarchal crozier, and does act as if there is some sort of hierarchical status above other bishops, in her position, that isn’t historic Episcopalianism. But she does wish to function as an archbishop. Polity is another thing that has morphed in TEC.
GKC
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GKC
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IgnatianPhilo
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I think the question I ask is, why don’t conservative anglicans expel the liberals? Those who clearly deny important and absolute aspects of the faith? Why is diversity to the point of contradiction on major issues tolerated? Im all for difference of opinion, but when you have some anglican priests saying things that Jesus did or might not have physically ressurected from the dead, you got a problem. Though I think this is mainly an episcopalian problem.
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commenter
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I respect the whole idea of “bloom where you are planted” and question those who switch churches too quickly. But has there EVER been a denomination where the leadership was sliding away from true doctrine, that was pulled back towards truth by local pastors or laity? I have observed countless Protestant denominations moving away from Christian orthodoxy. In every case conservatives protest, they merely slow down the deterioration. So instead of abandoning this part of the Creed in 3 years, it takes them 10 years. Each time the Episcopal Church rejects a doctrine, a few say “this is the last straw” and leave. They are the same who years earlier criticized conservatives who left, saying, “we need you to stay and right the ship”. But without a magisterium there isn’t any way to “stay and right the ship”. Historically the slide to apostasy seems almost irreversible in Protestantism. In the LCMS, I believe the orthodox leadership successfully withstood heresy. But can anyone think of a sola scriptura church being successfully pulled back by laity or pastors towards true doctrine once the leadership began to slide on doctrine? Are there any conservatives who leave the Episcopal Church for instance, who say “I’m glad we stayed as long as we did”.It is the same question I have asked of conservative/confessional Lutherans still in the ELCA.
Some wish to stay and right the ship.
Jon
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GKC
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GKC
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Predictions are always iffy, of course, but the state supreme court specifically rendered the “logic” of the Dennis Canon null and void in this state. I personally doubt there will be any further action on that, but one never knows.
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Indifferently
Guest
Katherine, allegedly, refused to sell a parish to a congregation, which was forced out of TEC, to ACNA, because of the complete meltdown in the former. To their credit, they still left. And the Church building was sold to an Islamic group who turned it into a Mosque.
That sort of thing actually makes me angry.
That sort of thing actually makes me angry.
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jinc1019
Guest
Yes, I have read about this story as well and it is outrageous, but not surprising. I truly believe that eventually, the Episcopal Church will regain its ground because the social activism in the church is popular right now because it ties to social causes outside of the church…As soon as those issues fade, and they will, I believe far-left liberals in the Episcopal Church will leave to find a better cause.
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jinc1019
Guest
By the way, when I said “as soon as those issues fade…” I meant that in our secular world, the government will inevitably create homosexual marriage (legally), and the vast majority of the liberals who have remained in the Episcopal Church to promote various social causes will no longer have a reason to stay. I do believe the Episcopal Church has long been used, along with other mainline churches, to promote a secular social issue agenda.
While we are on the note of legalizing gay marriage…I want to point out that I actually do oppose the government creating homosexual marriage, not because I think homosexual couples shouldn’t have the legal ability to be married the way a heterosexual couple does, but because marriage is none of the government’s business. I am legally married as well as married in the Church, and I can tell you with complete honesty that I don’t think my legal marriage means a damn thing. It is a piece of paper with my name on it and that’s all. I understand that a lot of people are not religious and wish to also engage in the institution of marriage without having to get married in a church…so just sign a legal contract (that’s all a marriage licence is anyway) proclaiming you are married, have a ceremony, and there you go. It really says something about our society that we know need the government’s permission to do everything, including get married. And what has the government ever used their “marriage-making” powers for? Keeping whites and blacks from marrying? Increasing your taxes? And for what? To get recognition from a group of people who can’t even run the Post Office effectively?
I know this is off-topic…but in a way…it isn’t at all. I truly believe that the sole reason liberal theology (and I don’t just mean promoting gay marriage in the church; I am talking about the complete rejection of basic Christian doctrines) has taken over many churches in America is to promote a political agenda, and if that political agenda were no longer an issue, the liberal theology would likely disappear as well.
While we are on the note of legalizing gay marriage…I want to point out that I actually do oppose the government creating homosexual marriage, not because I think homosexual couples shouldn’t have the legal ability to be married the way a heterosexual couple does, but because marriage is none of the government’s business. I am legally married as well as married in the Church, and I can tell you with complete honesty that I don’t think my legal marriage means a damn thing. It is a piece of paper with my name on it and that’s all. I understand that a lot of people are not religious and wish to also engage in the institution of marriage without having to get married in a church…so just sign a legal contract (that’s all a marriage licence is anyway) proclaiming you are married, have a ceremony, and there you go. It really says something about our society that we know need the government’s permission to do everything, including get married. And what has the government ever used their “marriage-making” powers for? Keeping whites and blacks from marrying? Increasing your taxes? And for what? To get recognition from a group of people who can’t even run the Post Office effectively?
I know this is off-topic…but in a way…it isn’t at all. I truly believe that the sole reason liberal theology (and I don’t just mean promoting gay marriage in the church; I am talking about the complete rejection of basic Christian doctrines) has taken over many churches in America is to promote a political agenda, and if that political agenda were no longer an issue, the liberal theology would likely disappear as well.
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GKC
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The case that comes to mind was in Binghamton, New York, about 3 years ago, or so. It became an Islamic awareness center.
GKC
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Indifferently
Guest
I hate to come across as terribly old fashioned, but our focus in the Church is not climate change, gender issues, gay rights, working conditions… it is nothing more nor less than Jesus Christ, who, in the most amazing act of love in human history,bore our sins on the Cross. I just wish we could look at things through this lens again. TEC and others are keen to forget all about it.
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GKC
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I wouldn’t refer to that as old-fashioned, as the best description. I’d call it Christian.
GKC
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Miss_Primrose
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I think weather you stay or go greatly depends on where you live and what churches you have in your area. I was raised in a church of england parish, and brought up with the church of england as a main part of my life, I still hold great affection for this church but it is getting very liberal, there are places for the traditionalists to go and there are catholic style churches for those who are more catholic but there voices are getting more distance within the church itself, lots of people don’t want to leave because they feel it is going against there national identity, but some myself included believe that the church is going to get more liberal in the future.
Lots of people who attend these churches don’t know what the true beliefs of the church are because they have moved into or been brought up in the more liberal version of the church and for a lot of people that allows them to have religion while still being of the world and not christian within the world, in other words they can be christian without giving up there secular worldview, unforunatly this leads to people trying to fit the faith into there own beliefs and they get comfortable with this and then see denominations such as the catholic church as too strict and unflexable.
Lots of people who attend these churches don’t know what the true beliefs of the church are because they have moved into or been brought up in the more liberal version of the church and for a lot of people that allows them to have religion while still being of the world and not christian within the world, in other words they can be christian without giving up there secular worldview, unforunatly this leads to people trying to fit the faith into there own beliefs and they get comfortable with this and then see denominations such as the catholic church as too strict and unflexable.
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