Conservative episcopalians...Why are you staying?

[jinc1019]

I think the question I ask is, why don’t conservative anglicans expel the liberals? Those who clearly deny important and absolute aspects of the faith? Why is diversity to the point of contradiction on major issues tolerated? Im all for difference of opinion, but when you have some anglican priests saying things that Jesus did or might not have physically ressurected from the dead, you got a problem. Though I think this is mainly an episcopalian problem.

Because the liberal Episcopalians outnumber the conservative ones in church leadership, which leads to the policies that allow for these positions.

 

[jinc1019]

I respect the whole idea of “bloom where you are planted” and question those who switch churches too quickly. But has there EVER been a denomination where the leadership was sliding away from true doctrine, that was pulled back towards truth by local pastors or laity? I have observed countless Protestant denominations moving away from Christian orthodoxy. In every case conservatives protest, they merely slow down the deterioration. So instead of abandoning this part of the Creed in 3 years, it takes them 10 years. Each time the Episcopal Church rejects a doctrine, a few say “this is the last straw” and leave. They are the same who years earlier criticized conservatives who left, saying, “we need you to stay and right the ship”. But without a magisterium there isn’t any way to “stay and right the ship”. Historically the slide to apostasy seems almost irreversible in Protestantism. In the LCMS, I believe the orthodox leadership successfully withstood heresy. But can anyone think of a sola scriptura church being successfully pulled back by laity or pastors towards true doctrine once the leadership began to slide on doctrine? Are there any conservatives who leave the Episcopal Church for instance, who say “I’m glad we stayed as long as we did”.

Actually I can…The Southern Baptist Convention is a great example of it. In the 1970s, they were definitely moving in the wrong direction. They even endorsed abortion!

I also think the United Methodist Church is moving back toward orthodoxy as well because the many churches in developing parts of the world they planted are now beginning to grow in their church governance (they have global representation at their conventions). As more and more people leave their church in America, the representation in conservative parts of the world gets bigger and the convention slowly becomes more conservative. This is why they have passed numerous conservative measures over the past 10 years or so, such as rejecting gay marriage in the church and removing favorable language about abortion from their church policies.

 

[jinc1019]

I think weather you stay or go greatly depends on where you live and what churches you have in your area. I was raised in a church of england parish, and brought up with the church of england as a main part of my life, I still hold great affection for this church but it is getting very liberal, there are places for the traditionalists to go and there are catholic style churches for those who are more catholic but there voices are getting more distance within the church itself, lots of people don’t want to leave because they feel it is going against there national identity, but some myself included believe that the church is going to get more liberal in the future.
Lots of people who attend these churches don’t know what the true beliefs of the church are because they have moved into or been brought up in the more liberal version of the church and for a lot of people that allows them to have religion while still being of the world and not christian within the world, in other words they can be christian without giving up there secular worldview, unforunatly this leads to people trying to fit the faith into there own beliefs and they get comfortable with this and then see denominations such as the catholic church as too strict and unflexable.

I believe that the Church of England needs two strong archbishops who are orthodox in their faith to move them in the right direction. I think it is still possible for the Church of England so long as the leadership turns in the right direction. I don’t know if the Church of England will ever turn into the Episcopal Church.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I think one reason is that despite the heretical actions of TEC leadership, many traditional Episcopalians feel that it would be schismatic to leave.

Ummm…hmmmmm.uhhhh…hmmmmmm

 

[commenter]

Conservatives in denominations sliding away from the Creed feel they can filter out some of the bad stuff, especially if they are pastors, or even bishops, and ensure that people in their flock at least get the full gospel. The problem is that this and other national denominations have moved much faster from any Christian doctrine, and they are using their power to ensure no new conservatives will ever have much power in the future. Even if your own congregation is solid on doctrine, parents and pastors are raising up a new generation. Do you want that generation attaching to a denomination that will definitely be a lot worse in 10 years? Sadly, I think the better a conservative pastor is, the more damage he can unwittingly do, because he is recruiting people for his denomination, like it or not. There may have been a time when conservative voices could influence the Episcopal (and certain other mainline groups), that time is long past. A conservative pastor or layperson could be doing far more permanent good by moving to the Catholic or LCMS, for instance.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I also think the United Methodist Church is moving back toward orthodoxy as well because the many churches in developing parts of the world they planted are now beginning to grow in their church governance (they have global representation at their conventions). As more and more people leave their church in America, the representation in conservative parts of the world gets bigger and the convention slowly becomes more conservative. This is why they have passed numerous conservative measures over the past 10 years or so, such as rejecting gay marriage in the church and removing favorable language about abortion from their church policies.

I’ve read this (that the UMC is returning to greater orthodoxy) from a number of sources.

 

[jinc1019]

Conservatives in denominations sliding away from the Creed feel they can filter out some of the bad stuff, especially if they are pastors, or even bishops, and ensure that people in their flock at least get the full gospel. The problem is that this and other national denominations have moved much faster from any Christian doctrine, and they are using their power to ensure no new conservatives will ever have much power in the future. Even if your own congregation is solid on doctrine, parents and pastors are raising up a new generation. Do you want that generation attaching to a denomination that will definitely be a lot worse in 10 years? Sadly, I think the better a conservative pastor is, the more damage he can unwittingly do, because he is recruiting people for his denomination, like it or not. There may have been a time when conservative voices could influence the Episcopal (and certain other mainline groups), that time is long past. A conservative pastor or layperson could be doing far more permanent good by moving to the Catholic or LCMS, for instance.

I understand the point here…I think they would be better off moving to the Anglican Church in North America or another conservative Anglican organization. The Catholic Church is not an option for many due to theological disagreements.

 

[jinc1019]

I’ve read this (that the UMC is returning to greater orthodoxy) from a number of sources.

I have as well…It definitely appears to be happening slowly but surely. Honestly, it’s just a matter of time. The Southern Methodists are still very conservative and eventually, I believe the liberal wing in the Methodist Church will break away and form a new denomination or move to the Episcopal Church. It will NOT be the conservatives that leave this time though.

 

[commenter]

I have as well…It definitely appears to be happening slowly but surely. Honestly, it’s just a matter of time. The Southern Methodists are still very conservative and eventually, I believe the liberal wing in the Methodist Church will break away and form a new denomination or move to the Episcopal Church. It will NOT be the conservatives that leave this time though.

Don’t discount the ability of the liberals in Methodism, or other mainlines, to use political and media power and money. Even if there are more active Methodists in Africa, the liberals have money and connections to control most seminaries and publishing houses, including religious ed. The South is conservative, but far less than 20 years ago.
United Methodists are getting closer to the Episcopal and ELCA, but won’t leave their power base behind. Personally I don’t understand why those who abandoned the Creed go to church at all, but when they own positions of power, they hang on. They DON’T leave. When CNN or Huffington Post keep applauding apostate church leaders as prophetic, it goes to your head.

 

[jinc1019]

Don’t discount the ability of the liberals in Methodism, or other mainlines, to use political and media power and money. Even if there are more active Methodists in Africa, the liberals have money and connections to control most seminaries and publishing houses, including religious ed. The South is conservative, but far less than 20 years ago.
United Methodists are getting closer to the Episcopal and ELCA, but won’t leave their power base behind. Personally I don’t understand why those who abandoned the Creed go to church at all, but when they own positions of power, they hang on. They DON’T leave. When CNN or Huffington Post keep applauding apostate church leaders as prophetic, it goes to your head.

As long as conservatives can control the doctrine, they will eventually win out.

 

[Izdaari]

Um, I’m staying because I’m not a conservative Episcopalian. I agree with TEC’s socially liberal stances. But I am creedally orthodox. If they ever abandon that, then I"d have to move on.

 

[Parisian]

I don’t understand why they would stay either. I could never be part of the church that goes against God’s will.

 

[jinc1019]

Um, I’m staying because I’m not a conservative Episcopalian. I agree with TEC’s socially liberal stances. But I am creedally orthodox. If they ever abandon that, then I"d have to move on.

Hi Izdaari,
You are the first non-conservative to respond so I would love to know…when you say you support the socially liberal causes, do you mean gay marriage and womens ordination? Any others?

If so, I would love for you to explain why you believe these things are in line with Christianity. If you don’t feel comfortable posting that online that’s fine; I would love it if you private messaged me instead. I really enjoy hearing what, theologically, makes socially liberal Christians believe these stances are ok. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way, but it’s easy for me to explain why conservative Christians feel the way they do, i.e. tradition, the traditional interpretations of the Bible, the magisterium and Pope (if you are Catholic). So if you get a chance, I would love to hear from you, either privately or publicly.

 

[jinc1019]

I don’t understand why they would stay either. I could never be part of the church that goes against God’s will.

I noticed you are part of the ACC…any thoughts about the future of the continuing Anglican movement? What are your thoughts on the Anglican Church in North America. I would love to check out an ACC parish but there are none where I live. Even the Anglican Church in North America is sparsely located.

 

[Indifferently]

I noticed you are part of the ACC…any thoughts about the future of the continuing Anglican movement? What are your thoughts on the Anglican Church in North America. I would love to check out an ACC parish but there are none where I live. Even the Anglican Church in North America is sparsely located.

I too am fascinated by the ACC. There is an excellent ACC blog on the web called The Continuum.

 

[commenter]

As long as conservatives can control the doctrine, they will eventually win out.

Conservatives in Protestantism have NOT controlled the doctrine. This is true in the Episcopals, Methodism, United Church of Christ, Presbyterianism, Disciples of Christ, most Baptists, the larger branch of Lutherans, and many others. Invariably liberals control seminaries, publishing, and Sunday School curriculum. They seldom explicitly deny doctrine, such as the Trinity, they omit it, or redefine it so it doesn’t mean much. Children grow up with no awareness of the supernatural, or absolute truths at all.
Liberals don’t attack Jesus as savior, they redefine Jesus - or rather the “Jesus community” - as “saving” by being a role model for social concern. Protestants who for years fought for civil rights and the poor suddenly got labelled “conservatives” because they insist Jesus is God. Liberals are quietly starting to use the other gospels, soon anyone who insists only on the traditional 4 gospels will be labelled conservative, even if they have always been liberal.
The struggle in the TEC does not involve real conservatives - they’re gone. It is between the secularists, in control, and the moderates, who are not (yet) ready to buy the whole secularist agenda. The United Church of Christ now is what other Protestant churches will look like in the future.
Over a century ago Cardinal Newman saw this drift to secularism as the inevitable outcome for churches not guided by the magisterium.

 

[commenter]

Um, I’m staying because I’m not a conservative Episcopalian. I agree with TEC’s socially liberal stances. But I am creedally orthodox. If they ever abandon that, then I"d have to move on.

The problem is denominations often don’t explicitly “abandon” the creed. They may refer to “the Trinity”; but it’s ok to think of it as a symbol for unity, not necessarily with any divine meaning (unless that comforts you). They still refer to Jesus, not necessarily as one person, but a community of caring, back then, and now. They may retain other elements of the creed, but only in a subjective way; if my understanding of the Crucifixion leads me to conquer selfishness, then the Crucifixion is “real” - for me. If the story of the Resurrection raises my hopes, it’s “real”. If the stories of Muslims raise their hopes, those stories are also real.

 

[Izdaari]

The problem is denominations often don’t explicitly “abandon” the creed. They may refer to “the Trinity”; but it’s ok to think of it as a symbol for unity, not necessarily with any divine meaning (unless that comforts you). They still refer to Jesus, not necessarily as one person, but a community of caring, back then, and now. They may retain other elements of the creed, but only in a subjective way; if my understanding of the Crucifixion leads me to conquer selfishness, then the Crucifixion is “real” - for me. If the story of the Resurrection raises my hopes, it’s “real”. If the stories of Muslims raise their hopes, those stories are also real.

This is true. There are some Episcopalians who think of those things in those ways, and they might as well be Unitarian Universalists. I am not one of them. If it becomes prevalent, I’ll have to move on. Not sure where I’d go.

 

[Izdaari]

Hi Izdaari,
You are the first non-conservative to respond so I would love to know…when you say you support the socially liberal causes, do you mean gay marriage and womens ordination? Any others?

If so, I would love for you to explain why you believe these things are in line with Christianity. If you don’t feel comfortable posting that online that’s fine; I would love it if you private messaged me instead. I really enjoy hearing what, theologically, makes socially liberal Christians believe these stances are ok. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way, but it’s easy for me to explain why conservative Christians feel the way they do, i.e. tradition, the traditional interpretations of the Bible, the magisterium and Pope (if you are Catholic). So if you get a chance, I would love to hear from you, either privately or publicly.

I will answer publicly and briefly, and will not debate or respond to cross-examination. Don’t even try. :flowers:
Yes, women’s ordination and marriage equality are big issues for me.

I don’t actually think of myself as a liberal. I’d say I’m an Anglican moderate conservative in the mode of C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright, with some emergent influence by way of Brian McLaren and Rob Bell.

But I am politically a libertarian and a member of the Libertarian Party. I think same sex marriage is a civil rights matter, of equal protection under the law, though I’d prefer to have government out of the marriage business entirely. I’m from WA, where same sex marriage is now legal, passed by the legislature, signed by the governor, and confirmed by referendum to the people. I voted for it of course. I am also a bisexual woman, with a little bit of personal interest in the matter.

I don’t see women’s ordination as a liberal vs. conservative thing. I come from a Pentecostal (AoG) background. They are conservative evangelicals who do ordain women, and I agree with their theology on it. You can find their position paper on the AoG website. I also admit to some personal interest in this, as I may someday seek ordination in either TEC or ELCA.

 

[jinc1019]

Conservatives in Protestantism have NOT controlled the doctrine. This is true in the Episcopals, Methodism, United Church of Christ, Presbyterianism, Disciples of Christ, most Baptists, the larger branch of Lutherans, and many others. Invariably liberals control seminaries, publishing, and Sunday School curriculum. They seldom explicitly deny doctrine, such as the Trinity, they omit it, or redefine it so it doesn’t mean much. Children grow up with no awareness of the supernatural, or absolute truths at all.
Liberals don’t attack Jesus as savior, they redefine Jesus - or rather the “Jesus community” - as “saving” by being a role model for social concern. Protestants who for years fought for civil rights and the poor suddenly got labelled “conservatives” because they insist Jesus is God. Liberals are quietly starting to use the other gospels, soon anyone who insists only on the traditional 4 gospels will be labelled conservative, even if they have always been liberal.
The struggle in the TEC does not involve real conservatives - they’re gone. It is between the secularists, in control, and the moderates, who are not (yet) ready to buy the whole secularist agenda. The United Church of Christ now is what other Protestant churches will look like in the future.
Over a century ago Cardinal Newman saw this drift to secularism as the inevitable outcome for churches not guided by the magisterium.

Conservatives are rapidly gaining control in the United Methodist Church. This is a fact. Why? Because it is an international organization and the church overseas is far more conservative than the one in the United States. As membership continues to decline in the more liberal parts of the United States, the percentage of the general convention composed of representatives from conservative U.S. states and ultra-conservatives from countries in Africa and Asia will significantly expand, allowing for conservatives to pass doctrines which reverse those put in place by liberals in the U.S. This is a fact and even a cursory investigation into this matter would show this.