Conservative episcopalians...Why are you staying?

[jinc1019]

I will answer publicly and briefly, and will not debate or respond to cross-examination. Don’t even try. :flowers:
Yes, women’s ordination and marriage equality are big issues for me.

I don’t actually think of myself as a liberal. I’d say I’m an Anglican moderate conservative in the mode of C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright, with some emergent influence by way of Brian McLaren and Rob Bell.

But I am politically a libertarian and a member of the Libertarian Party. I think same sex marriage is a civil rights matter, of equal protection under the law, though I’d prefer to have government out of the marriage business entirely. I’m from WA, where same sex marriage is now legal, passed by the legislature, signed by the governor, and confirmed by referendum to the people. I voted for it of course. I am also a bisexual woman, with a little bit of personal interest in the matter.

I don’t see women’s ordination as a liberal vs. conservative thing. I come from a Pentecostal (AoG) background. They are conservative evangelicals who do ordain women, and I agree with their theology on it. You can find their position paper on the AoG website. I also admit to some personal interest in this, as I may someday seek ordination in either TEC or ELCA.

Thanks for sharing. I TOTALLY agree about the government being out of the marriage business by the way.

Just to clear something up though, you say you support gay marriage in the church, but all of your arguments are about civil marriage, which is obviously entirely different. I think a lot of people have no problem with gay marriage in civil government but don’t want it in church. So does that mean you don’t support gay marriage in church or do? I know you said you won’t answer qustions, I was just curious because all of your reasons are related to the civil government. Also, if you do, do you have a theological source/reason for that position as well? I will look up the Assembly of God’s position on women’s ordination when I get the chance. I appreciate the information!

 

[Izdaari]

Thanks for sharing. I TOTALLY agree about the government being out of the marriage business by the way.

Just to clear something up though, you say you support gay marriage in the church, but all of your arguments are about civil marriage, which is obviously entirely different. I think a lot of people have no problem with gay marriage in civil government but don’t want it in church. So does that mean you don’t support gay marriage in church or do? I know you said you won’t answer qustions, I was just curious because all of your reasons are related to the civil government. Also, if you do, do you have a theological source/reason for that position as well? I will look up the Assembly of God’s position on women’s ordination when I get the chance. I appreciate the information!

True observation that I am much more concerned with civil marriage than with church weddings. If a same sex couple can have a civil wedding, they’ll have their legal rights. It isn’t a big deal to me whether a church does or does not do gay weddings, so long as they welcome gay people and treat them with respect. OTOH, if they take a political position against marriage equality, and encourage their members to vote against it, I object… and that’s a large part of the reason I felt I had to leave the conservative evangelical movement.

 

[jinc1019]

True observation that I am much more concerned with civil marriage than with church weddings. If a same sex couple can have a civil wedding, they’ll have their legal rights. It isn’t a big deal to me whether a church does or does not do gay weddings, so long as they welcome gay people and treat them with respect. OTOH, if they take a political position against marriage equality, and encourage their members to vote against it, I object… and that’s a large part of the reason I felt I had to leave the conservative evangelical movement.

Ok, thanks for sharing! I appreciate it.

 

[Deditus_Domina]

About Me: I am a Episcopalian about to be confirmed as Catholic, working for an Episcopal Diocese.

I think one of the biggest issues is that just because a “conservative” Episcopalian disagrees with the direction the church has taken does not make them ready to accept all Catholic teachings. For example, some of the very conservative Episcopalians I know have divorced and remarried and probably use birth control. While they think it is wrong to have homosexual bishops, they aren’t going to admit it was wrong to remarry or decide to only have two children. Likewise, Episcopalians generally brush over things like the Immaculate Conception, Assumption and the Saints. Episcopalians are all over the place when it comes to transubstantiation. These are big issues and usually big changes in thought have to be made!

Many conservative Episcopalians also seem to only “feel conservative”. They feel there is a right way and a wrong way to behave but don’t want to impose that on other people. They have moral feelings from their upbringing but are not grounded in a background of strong biblical moral teaching. For example, it is now en vogue for clergy to say that Jesus freed us from having to follow the 10 commandments. They present all sorts of logical arguments against them and the laity who are not trained in biblical arguments, back down and say “maybe I am wrong, maybe I am old fashioned”.

The fact that a few conservative parishes remain in just about every diocese allows for many to bury the heads in the sand and pretend that things aren’t that bad.

On a total side note, most Episcopalians are older and young children are few and far between in many parishes. People get stuck in their ways. Also, I think often people who aren’t raising children don’t worry as much about immorality/bad teaching around them and don’t feel the need to move as strongly.

 

[commenter]

About Me: I am a Episcopalian about to be confirmed as Catholic, working for an Episcopal Diocese.

…
Many conservative Episcopalians also seem to only “feel conservative”. They feel there is a right way and a wrong way to behave but don’t want to impose that on other people. They have moral feelings from their upbringing but are not grounded in a background of strong biblical moral teaching. For example, it is now en vogue for clergy to say that Jesus freed us from having to follow the 10 commandments. They present all sorts of logical arguments against them and the laity who are not trained in biblical arguments, back down and say “maybe I am wrong, maybe I am old fashioned”.

The fact that a few conservative parishes remain in just about every diocese allows for many to bury the heads in the sand and pretend that things aren’t that bad.
…

Welcome to the Catholic Faith! I try not to use the term “conservative”. Now it is usually used as a criticism. People who all their lives fought for civil rights and the poor, open to change, are suddenly labelled “conservative”. There have always been certain core principles, including life, the Natural Law, that some things are absolutely true or right. It’s not conservative to defend these things, it’s normal. By labelling prolifers as “conservative” it implies a core principle is a discretionary matter, (you like vanilla, I like chocolate, to each their own). Gay marriage isn’t liberal, it’s abnormal, just as a square circle isn’t liberal. I try to use the word “orthodox”, in the sense intended by C. S. Lewis. There are orthodox people in every denomination. They may or may not be liberal or conservative on discretionary matters.

 

[paulrxp]

Welcome to the Catholic Faith! I try not to use the term “conservative”. Now it is usually used as a criticism. People who all their lives fought for civil rights and the poor, open to change, are suddenly labelled “conservative”. There have always been certain core principles, including life, the Natural Law, that some things are absolutely true or right. It’s not conservative to defend these things, it’s normal…

There’s too much government and poltics in our lives. And that’s not a Republican or Libertarian politcial statement. If a secular country believes in separation of church and state, it should be paramount for churches to remove all elements of politics out of worship. Yeah,easier said than done, I know. Too many faiths today use poltics to justify their doctrines. Poltical answers are thought to be better answers for modern day living. Whatever trend is relevant at the moment, must be true, if not practical, ya ok. amen, ha.

It’s probably a given that all denominations will face their splinters and scisms, The Church certainly did within the first 1000 years, and even then the split wasn’t entirely questioning the core doctrines, but of authority itself, not how that authority interpreted doctrine. With the Episcopalians, Lutherans and Methodists, authorities interpretation of doctrine is certainly at the forefront. There are some challenging years ahead for church leadership, and unfortunately, the laity are unfairly caught in the middle, sometimes forced to choose. I hope the faithful find their way, find their truth, even if it’s not in the Catholic faith, truth in Christ, not in politics.

 

[jinc1019]

About Me: I am a Episcopalian about to be confirmed as Catholic, working for an Episcopal Diocese.

I think one of the biggest issues is that just because a “conservative” Episcopalian disagrees with the direction the church has taken does not make them ready to accept all Catholic teachings. For example, some of the very conservative Episcopalians I know have divorced and remarried and probably use birth control. While they think it is wrong to have homosexual bishops, they aren’t going to admit it was wrong to remarry or decide to only have two children. Likewise, Episcopalians generally brush over things like the Immaculate Conception, Assumption and the Saints. Episcopalians are all over the place when it comes to transubstantiation. These are big issues and usually big changes in thought have to be made!

Many conservative Episcopalians also seem to only “feel conservative”. They feel there is a right way and a wrong way to behave but don’t want to impose that on other people. They have moral feelings from their upbringing but are not grounded in a background of strong biblical moral teaching. For example, it is now en vogue for clergy to say that Jesus freed us from having to follow the 10 commandments. They present all sorts of logical arguments against them and the laity who are not trained in biblical arguments, back down and say “maybe I am wrong, maybe I am old fashioned”.

The fact that a few conservative parishes remain in just about every diocese allows for many to bury the heads in the sand and pretend that things aren’t that bad.

On a total side note, most Episcopalians are older and young children are few and far between in many parishes. People get stuck in their ways. Also, I think often people who aren’t raising children don’t worry as much about immorality/bad teaching around them and don’t feel the need to move as strongly.

All good points and very interesting…I always thought, and I could be wrong, that papal infallibility would be a big roadblock, but you seem to suggest the social issues are more important. Any thoughts on doctrinal difference keeping people out?

 

[jinc1019]

Welcome to the Catholic Faith! I try not to use the term “conservative”. Now it is usually used as a criticism. People who all their lives fought for civil rights and the poor, open to change, are suddenly labelled “conservative”. There have always been certain core principles, including life, the Natural Law, that some things are absolutely true or right. It’s not conservative to defend these things, it’s normal. By labelling prolifers as “conservative” it implies a core principle is a discretionary matter, (you like vanilla, I like chocolate, to each their own). Gay marriage isn’t liberal, it’s abnormal, just as a square circle isn’t liberal. I try to use the word “orthodox”, in the sense intended by C. S. Lewis. There are orthodox people in every denomination. They may or may not be liberal or conservative on discretionary matters.

Great point about orthodoxy.

 

[jinc1019]

There’s too much government and poltics in our lives. And that’s not a Republican or Libertarian politcial statement. If a secular country believes in separation of church and state, it should be paramount for churches to remove all elements of politics out of worship. Yeah,easier said than done, I know. Too many faiths today use poltics to justify their doctrines. Poltical answers are thought to be better answers for modern day living. Whatever trend is relevant at the moment, must be true, if not practical, ya ok. amen, ha.

It’s probably a given that all denominations will face their splinters and scisms, The Church certainly did within the first 1000 years, and even then the split wasn’t entirely questioning the core doctrines, but of authority itself, not how that authority interpreted doctrine. With the Episcopalians, Lutherans and Methodists, authorities interpretation of doctrine is certainly at the forefront. There are some challenging years ahead for church leadership, and unfortunately, the laity are unfairly caught in the middle, sometimes forced to choose. I hope the faithful find their way, find their truth, even if it’s not in the Catholic faith, truth in Christ, not in politics.

Amen to that.

However, while I agree largely about your points regarding politics…I can’t completely agree. There are many issues, such as abortion and religious liberty for instance, which need to be preached from the pulpit. The fact that so many Catholics voted for President Obama in the last election despite his views on these issues is disturbing and the Church has don’t nothing about this. You mean to tell me its wrong to have an abortion and I have to confess that sin but voting for someone who allows abortion to be legal for all people is perfectly fine? We are expected to support our churches to ensure they practice true Christianity but it’s ok to vote for a politician who is going to force churches to commit sins according to their own teachings? And not just minor sins either, big ones. I don’t get it.