"Conservative" versus "Good" Catholic

[Emeraldlady]

But those come down on both sides of those labels conservative and liberal.

That’s not been my experience at all.

“Good Catholics” goes back many many moons…
Those who intended to be obedient to the Catholic Church
before there was ever a hint of anything negative about the Pope or even most/all priests.

Liberals in the manner in which they first were given a ‘name’ are very anti-authoritarian
and have now gained the upper hand and appear to be overtaking the Vatican…
and have total disregard for the Magisterium…
even to the point of IMHO promoting APOSTASY…

I never even employ the term conservative

• viewing it as having gained negative associations from Modernists…

NOTE … That said, I’m not saying the pope is in partnership with them.

I’ve just read this quote from ArchB Vigano which makes it really hard to deny that “conservatives” are dissenters who reject papal authority.

Vigano - "The tragic story of this failed pontificate advances with a pressing succession of twists and turns. Not a day passes: from the most exalted throne the Supreme Pontiff proceeds to dismantle the See of Peter, using and abusing its supreme authority, not to confess but to deny; not to confirm but to mislead; not to unite but to divide; not to build but to demolish. Material heresies, formal heresies, idolatry, superficiality of every kind."

 

[phil19034]

A conservative Catholic is for conserving Traditional Catholic teaching and a liberal one generally thinks that God’s laws change to suit society. And its often the same with politics, actually…a political conservative is usually for traditional Christian morality and a liberal is not. I know that that seems to conflate politics and religion on the surface but many people choose their politics based on their moral and religious worldview. That, and sometimes they choose a religious view due to a political leaning, which is wrong of course. But the religious differences Among the parties are pretty staggering…70% of conservatives say religion is very important in their life compared to 47% of those on the left. In all areas of the polls, God is a bigger influence for conservatives. Looking at these numbers, it isnt hard to see the cause behind the morality shift in the Democratic Party. I agree that it stinks that religion is conflated with politics, but, as I said above, it can be circular…and it is wrong when a person holds a political view in higher regard than a church teaching.

Conservatives - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center

Democrats and Democratic leaners - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center

I agree. Religion and politics are actually much more aligned that people think.

I do think that for American Catholics, there is more political conflict than in other denominations.

Reasons:

1. Catholics (esp Roman Rite Catholics) are a very diverse group of people, ethnicity & economically.
2. The Church was heavily linked to the Democrats back in the 1930s - 1960s, & lots of that is still lingering.

• The Christian Democrats used to be lead by Catholics & Black Protestant Churches in the North and protestants in the South
• While the Religious Right of the Republicans was historically lead by Protestants.
• Today, the Republican Party’s Religious Right is becoming more Catholic, but Catholic Democrats indirectly undermine the in-roads that Catholic Republicans are making.

1. Americans only have two viable parties. The Church is 100% pro-life, and only 1 party today is supports the pro-life movement (even if its support is imperfect).
2. There are a vast number of Catholics who are Catholic in name only. I would argue that most of the “cultural Catholics” lean left or libertarian. So they tend to support policies (Republican or Democrat) that don’t always match up with Church teaching.
3. Finally, we have “seamless garment theory” advocates pushing their view in a lot religious orders & Catholic colleges/schools; while bishops & priests who support the hierarchical ranking of sin/issues (where the “non-negotiables” comes from) have less of contact with lapsed Catholics.

My point: unlike other denomination, Catholics are kind of split between the parties and will most likely remain that way unless we get a truly Catholic party, or at least one that matches up completely with Catholic social teaching.

 

[JanR]

I think compassionate conservative sums it up pretty well. As conservatives, we hold with the traditional values, while being compassionate at the same time toward our fellow human beings. Charitable, in other words, while not compromising our basic values and principles. I would think that is very much in keeping with our Catholic faith.

 

[goout]

This is very true. Sadly. We can see that here at CAF. The Church has become very divided.

The forum could do it’s part to ease divisions by melding this subforum into the other forums at large.
Look at the title of this sub-forum:“Traditional Catholicism”.
No such thing. Just as there is no such thing as “progressive Catholicism”.
There is respect for Tradition and traditions, can be rediscovery and appreciation of traditional music and liturgy, and other practices and disciplines that are tradition minded,

but there is no such thing as Traditional Catholicism, and CAF could do it’s part by fixing that.
Any ism can become just as much an idol as the Pachemama.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I think compassionate conservative sums it up pretty well. As conservatives, we hold with the traditional values, while being compassionate at the same time toward our fellow human beings. Charitable, in other words, while not compromising our basic values and principles. I would think that is very much in keeping with our Catholic faith.

My observation is that many seem to actually fear compassion. They seem to believe that being compassionate in the model of Jesus compassion, risks failing the other person or even harming them by not giving them their “home truths”. If one contemplates on the Gospels authentically, it gives us a wonderful sense of not just the compassion of Jesus but the power of compassion to channel the grace of God to another. Afterall, it is by grace that we are changed rather than being ‘convinced’ or ‘warned’ or ‘taught’. The Church has grown gradually over the last century to realise that rigid condemnation does not channel the grace of God. But even more seriously, priests who minister to groups who have this ridigity towards others, are noticing that it creates an environment where serious sin is entering into them. Fr Ripperger the traditional and exorcist spoke about this earlier this year.

The Church is guiding us in the way of true compassion without compromising truth.

 

[JanR]

Often, rigidity leads to judging and possibly self-righeousness. Being too rigid can also lead to resentment, rebellion and defiance by those who are on its receiving end. We must remember that while we honor truth and uphold our values, we are also imperfect human beings, not pre-programmed robots – the ONLY entities that would benefit from uncompromising rigidity.

Carried to its extreme, rigidity can lead to abuse.

 

[EndTimes]

I’ve just read this quote from ArchB Vigano which makes it really hard to deny that “conservatives” are dissenters who reject papal authority.

Vigano - " The tragic story of this failed pontificate advances with a pressing succession of twists and turns. Not a day passes: from the most exalted throne the Supreme Pontiff proceeds to dismantle the See of Peter, using and abusing its supreme authority, not to confess but to deny; not to confirm but to mislead; not to unite but to divide; not to build but to demolish. Material heresies, formal heresies, idolatry, superficiality of every kind."

The over-arching story of that general scenario - most likely involving more that just Vigano and the Pope - should in my opinion be expounded upon and reviewed…

In which situations does Papal Authority come into Play ?

Are we required to give intellectual assent to everything a pope says and does

• as if it all falls within a full gamut of required belief infallibility

Is Vigano the only Major Cleric, or even the Laity
who has concerns over varying items which in turn are
directly or indirectly associated in some manner with the pope?

Back to the specifics of your post…

In order to fairly discern what you’ve written - what is necessary comes down to the combination of clearly defining terms - such as liberal/conservative - as well as gathering more info on what Vigano is specifically referring to… along with what would most likely amount to - a larger study of this current pope…

Even myself has recently tightened up to a degree this problem of semantics.

_

 

[stpurl]

Yes, but who are the rigid?

Is it ‘rigid’ to ask that Catholics accept Catholic teachings? I don’t think so.

We all know that we can fail in following the teachings, but as long as we repent and confess and then ‘try again’, that’s what God asks of us.

But I think there is a rigidity among those who insist that Catholic teachings are ‘too hard’ and that expecting Catholics to try to follow them is rigid. I think these people, by insisting their ‘mercy’ in determining that not only can Catholics NOT be expected to even TRY to follow teachings (in some circumstances) but that their not doing so is not sinful at all, and that it is in fact sinful and ‘rigid’ to expect people to try to follow Christ, are showing a rigid determination to ‘rewrite’ Christian teaching because they think they know better than the good Lord Himself.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I’ve just read this quote from ArchB Vigano which makes it really hard to deny that “conservatives” are dissenters who reject papal authority.

I am having a really difficult time trying to see how this comment is not judgmental and causing division.

You just made a sweeping accusation of all conservative Catholics as being dissenters from the Church and that they reject papal authority.

Do you have facts and insights to back that up?
How does labeling conservative Catholics as dissenters bring unity?

. Fr Ripperger the traditional and exorcist spoke about this earlier this year

Father Ripperger has years of excellent talks that can be found on youtube and at his website. We need to realize that the video linked in the above post is number 10 in a long series of talks. That way nothing gets taken out of context.

Here is a website where you can listen to more of his talks and homilies.

Home -

A Website Dedicated to the Sacred Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.

sensustraditionis.org

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

I’ve just read this quote from ArchB Vigano which makes it really hard to deny that “conservatives” are dissenters who reject papal authority.

I am having a really difficult time trying to see how this comment is not judgmental and causing division.

You just made a sweeping accusation of all conservative Catholics as being dissenters from the Church and that they reject papal authority.

Do you have facts and insights to back that up?
How does labeling conservative Catholics as dissenters bring unity?

If you look at the reply in the context of End Times post. End Times was digging in behind the divisive ‘liberals bad/conservative good’ dynamic and I was reminding him/her that here is a known “conservative” outright rejecting the authority of the Pope. There are garden variety dissenters on either side of this spectrum.

Father Ripperger has years of excellent talks that can be found on youtube and at his website. We need to realize that the video linked in the above post is number 10 in a long series of talks. That way nothing gets taken out of context.

Here is a website where you can listen to more of his talks and homilies.

I know Fr Rippergers talks very well as my daughter is a ‘fan’. My daughter is a fringe dweller in the Latin Mass community here. She wears a veil to Latin Mass and says the atmosphere of the Monday night Mass and other worldly and inspiring. However they are a clique-y lot and very not open to Catholics like us that are people fully aligned and committed to the Pope and Magisterium. How wonderful would it be if like Fr Ripperger says, that the Traditionalists stop with the looking down on the New Mass and criticising Pope Francis and generally being ‘haughty’. How wonderful for the whole Church would that be. I pray for that outcome. Come Holy Spirit.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

There are garden variety dissenters on either side of this spectrum.

I will agree with you that there are many people who dissent from the faith. They could be liberal or conservative or even somewhere in between. We can judge actions but we can not judge a heart.

However they are a clique-y lot and very not open to Catholics like us that are people fully aligned and committed to the Pope and Magisterium

Here again is an assumption regarding other Catholics that they are not committed to the Pope and the Magisterium. This a completely false and unChristian assumption.

How wonderful would it be if like Fr Ripperger says, that the Traditionalists stop with the looking down on the New Mass and criticising Pope Francis and generally being ‘haughty’.

I thilnk you need to listen to more of Father’s talks because he has a lot to say regarding recent changes. It is best not to take what he is saying out of context and lead others to believe he is being critical of traditional Catholics or the Traditions of the Church. The problems he addresses in the video linked he says applies to all Catholics.

Conservative and traditional are not one and the same.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

My observation is that many seem to actually fear compassion.

It seems more likely that they have just become to attached to partisan values that aren’t in line with the Church.

Is it ‘rigid’ to ask that Catholics accept Catholic teachings?

This is likely for the Catholics that use harsher language than neccessary, not to people who believe in following Church teaching.

 

[stpurl]

Harsher language than necessary? Who gets to determine what is 'harsher language than necessary?" How is it determined? What exactly is the ‘necessary’ language? I mean, if there is ‘harsher than’ it must be that you’re measuring by a standard, so there must be words that are ‘exactly right’.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Harsher language than necessary? Who gets to determine what is 'harsher language than necessary?" How is it determined? What exactly is the ‘necessary’ language? I mean, if there is ‘harsher than’ it must be that you’re measuring by a standard, so there must be words that are ‘exactly right’.

You can’t say I’m wrong then if no one can decide.

 

[EndTimes]

Is it ‘rigid’ to ask that Catholics accept Catholic teachings? I don’t think so.

of course not…

“rigid” is part of the lexicon of Our Lord’s Enemies…

Imagine those who go apey…
whenever they encounter a follower of Jesus - Messiah of All -
who dares to believe as being True that which Jesus Teaches is True!

They Mocked Him then and they Mock Him now. That is their way…

_

 

[Lysander]

Citation needed.

 

[stpurl]

Perhaps I misunderstood.

Of course there are always people who do go overboard. The problem is that in today’s climate, anything short of slavish affirmation is seen as ‘too harsh’ by many.

 

[Bill6]

Greetings in Christ.
Pope Benedict XVI has stated that Catholics must stop with labels. Let’s just focus on being Catholic. Part of that means believing all that God has revealed through his Church.
God bless and Mary keep you.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Perhaps I misunderstood.

Of course there are always people who do go overboard. The problem is that in today’s climate, anything short of slavish affirmation is seen as ‘too harsh’ by many.

Scripture gives lots of examples of the tone and content of Jesus addressing sinners. His only real harshness was with the religious leaders who thought they were better than everyone else.

 

[JanR]

And, with the money changers in the temple. He didn’t like that, at all!