Considering conversion to Catholicism - Open Forum on the topic

[Will_Thibbs]

I’m seriously considering conversion from the Reformed Episcopal church to the Roman Catholic, and I decided to start an open forum thread on the topic in general, where it can be discussed, and options weighed.

 

[workingman]

First welcome to CAF. I guess what are you looking to discuss? Anything in particular?

 

[Paul_Infirdigno]

Thats Great! im open for discussion. Any questions about the Faith? Im no theologian but i think i may be able to help

 

[Crumpy]

Well, you need to help us to understand where your reservations and concerns are about joining the Catholic Church? These threads are each an open forum, in a large way.

I’ve been writing posts in several threads about the subject of Divine Tradition in the Catholic Church. I’ve been using a book called Tradition and the Church by Msgr. George Agius.

This book explains beyond all doubt that the Catholic Church is the one true church of Jesus Christ. the subject matter is what is tradition and is it a source of divine revelation, as the Church maintains.

Agius shows beyond all objection that Tradition is a source of divine revelation equal to scripture, as expressed centuries ago by the early church fathers and ever since. But, he only mentions in passing the elements of that tradition, such as the Mass, the sacraments, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, using the “sign of the cross” and blessed water and oil, praying for the dead, and praying to the saints. He doesn’t go down that list very far or in much detail.

As an illustration beyond what Agius put in his book (approx 315 pages), I was reading Second Corinthians Chap 6 the other night, verses 1 - 11. Paul is pleading with them to listen to HIM, not to other false teachers for the truth – divine revelation. There’s no appeal to sola scriptura there. Faith and Truth is coming to them through him, an apostle of Jesus Christ – through tradition. He’s handing down what was handed on to him and what was revealed to him.

The publisher says that there doesn’t seem to be another book around quite like this one. I don’t know, but this is a good one. The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses tradition in exactly the same way, but not in such detail or in the manner of an apologetics discussion as Agius’ book.

God bless.

 

[Nicea325]

I’m seriously considering conversion from the Reformed Episcopal church to the Roman Catholic, and I decided to start an open forum thread on the topic in general, where it can be discussed, and options weighed.

Welcome! By all means,ask all you want and God Bless your spiritual journey.

 

[Will_Thibbs]

Well, something I thought of before -anything-, was something I am unsure about. I’m ignorant if it is the case, or is just a stereotype. Idolatry. I’ve seen certain Catholics go in so far as to insinuate Mary, or Saints were co-mediators with Christ, or merely just as important. Despite scripture stating Jesus Christ is the one mediator, the one way to Salvation, and such. And, I always assumed relics fell nearly into the same category as idolatry. However, I may simply be ignorant of the system of Saints, and Mary’s usage in the Church. Or, may have just found Catholic followers who are misusing them.

 

[Paul_Infirdigno]

Well, something I thought of before -anything-, was something I am unsure about. I’m ignorant if it is the case, or is just a stereotype. Idolatry. I’ve seen certain Catholics go in so far as to insinuate Mary, or Saints were co-mediators with Christ, or merely just as important. Despite scripture stating Jesus Christ is the one mediator, the one way to Salvation, and such. And, I always assumed relics fell nearly into the same category as idolatry. However, I may simply be ignorant of the system of Saints, and Mary’s usage in the Church. Or, may have just found Catholic followers who are misusing them.

mmhmmm. well mediators are just like intercessors, that what we mean.
When Paul wrote that Jesus was the one mediator between GOD and man,
“And one mediator between GOD and man, the man Christ Jesus.” or something like that.
He ment Jesus Christ was the only special kind of mediator in that Jesus is both GOD and man, therefore i believe he can relate more.

Maybe both [about the idolatry thing] It is giving honor to the The person of who the statue is, it isnt like we think the statue is the real presents of Mary. the marble (or wood or whatever) that the statue is made out of is nothing, its all about who the statue is about.

 

[JM3]

Well, something I thought of before -anything-, was something I am unsure about. I’m ignorant if it is the case, or is just a stereotype. Idolatry. I’ve seen certain Catholics go in so far as to insinuate Mary, or Saints were co-mediators with Christ, or merely just as important. Despite scripture stating Jesus Christ is the one mediator, the one way to Salvation, and such. And, I always assumed relics fell nearly into the same category as idolatry. However, I may simply be ignorant of the system of Saints, and Mary’s usage in the Church. Or, may have just found Catholic followers who are misusing them.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)508 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

 

[Rightlydivide]

I do not see that much difference between the two. They look the same in worship. Catholics have schools for your kids to go to. Thats a plus. They also have really flexible mass times. Early in the morning or as late as 1:00 pm. Of course I can’t keep track of all the different Anglican groups. Its just too much.
You will have to go to confession. But that should not be too brutal. Just don’t do anything embarrassing.
You still get to go to movies, dance, drink casually, and listen to secular music. If you so desire of course.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Well, something I thought of before -anything-, was something I am unsure about. I’m ignorant if it is the case, or is just a stereotype. Idolatry. I’ve seen certain Catholics go in so far as to insinuate Mary, or Saints were co-mediators with Christ, or merely just as important. Despite scripture stating Jesus Christ is the one mediator, the one way to Salvation, and such. And, I always assumed relics fell nearly into the same category as idolatry. However, I may simply be ignorant of the system of Saints, and Mary’s usage in the Church. Or, may have just found Catholic followers who are misusing them.

Welcome to the forum. We do certainly believe that Christ is the one mediator, but we also believe that saints will offer their prayers on our behalf. I’m sure someone who has more time than me will go into more detail, but I did want to post something from the OT that seems related to relics:
2 Kings 13:21:

Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.

Of course, we don’t believe that relics have any power of their own, but that God can and does occasionally choose to work through the relics of those who served Him in life.

 

[Anthony_V]

JM3’s quote stated above is very well stated. In brief, saints, and Mother Mary, are always trying to help us to get to Jesus. They want no worship, because worship is reserved for Christ alone. It’s like, what if you asked a friend to pray for you. The friend is not taking the place of Jesus, but rather helping you to Jesus.

 

[Anthony_V]

I do not see that much difference between the two. They look the same in worship. Catholics have schools for your kids to go to. Thats a plus. They also have really flexible mass times. Early in the morning or as late as 1:00 pm. Of course I can’t keep track of all the different Anglican groups. Its just too much.
You will have to go to confession. But that should not be too brutal. Just don’t do anything embarrassing.
You still get to go to movies, dance, drink casually, and listen to secular music. If you so desire of course.

The Catholic Church has true sacramental worship. The Anglican church does not. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. The Anglican church was not. The Catholic Church is has the most direct way of conferring grace. The Anglican church does not. The Catholic Church celebrates with the Church triumphant and the Church suffering. The Anglican church does not. I suppose the list could go on. While the Anglican church is by no means bad or evil, it is not in the fullness of grace.

Sacramental worship in the liturgy of the Eucharist, in itself, is the pinnacle of Catholic worship. If we were to take all the praise that mankind has given through out eternity, in addition to those in heaven and purgatory, and compare it to a single consecration of the Eucharist, it would be a single atom against the entire universe. This is the difference between the worship of God, and the veneration of the saints. The saints can never attain the worthiness of sacramental worship. Not even Mary. Ever.

 

[Will_Thibbs]

So essentially, the Saints and/or Mary are like Biblical middle-man. Used more to ask for their contribution in our prayers and to pray for us? Alrighty. Part of my confusion on that matter also came from the “Hail Mary’s” used for absolution. The word Hail seemed more indicative of worship to me. Could anyone explain the usage of that more in-depth?

 

[2Rollin_Stoned]

So essentially, the Saints and/or Mary are like Biblical middle-man. Used more to ask for their contribution in our prayers and to pray for us? Alrighty. Part of my confusion on that matter also came from the “Hail Mary’s” used for absolution. The word Hail seemed more indicative of worship to me. Could anyone explain the usage of that more in-depth?

“Hail” is a greeting. Check your English…

Besides…it’s straight from the New Testament, so if it was worship then why would the archangel Gabriel have used it to begin with?

Luke 1:[28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

 

[Will_Thibbs]

Actually, “Hail” has multiple meanings, as nearly EVERY word in the English language: “to acclaim; approve enthusiastically”.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Actually, “Hail” has multiple meanings, as nearly EVERY word in the English language: “to acclaim; approve enthusiastically”.

The opening line of the Hail Mary is taken directly from Luke 1:28, where Gabriel greets the Virgin, saying, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” It should be pretty clear from the context that ‘hail’ is meant as a greeting in the both the scripture and the prayer.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Actually, “Hail” has multiple meanings, as nearly EVERY word in the English language: “to acclaim; approve enthusiastically”.

As has been said, ‘Hail’ is a greeting. It’s the equivalent of saying ‘Hello.’ And it’s Biblical.

 

[JM3]

Actually, “Hail” has multiple meanings, as nearly EVERY word in the English language: “to acclaim; approve enthusiastically”.

It would be incorrect to only consider ‘english’ in understanding the prayer. The prayer did not originate in english, so you should consider the meaning of ‘Hail’ in the language it was originally used and how the angel meant it in using it.

newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm

The Hail Mary a salutation

To understand the early developments of this devotion it is important to grasp the fact that those who first used this formula fully recognized that the Ave Maria was merely a form of greeting. It was therefore long customary to accompany the words with some external gesture of homage, a genuflection, or least an inclination of the head. Of St. Aybert, in the twelfth century, it is recorded that he recited 150 Hail Marys daily, 100 with genuflections and 50 with prostrations. So Thierry tells us of St. Louis of France that “without counting his other prayers the holy King knelt down every evening fifty times and each time he stood upright then knelt again and repeated slowly an Ave Maria.” Kneeling at the Ave Maria was enjoined in several of the religious orders. So in the Ancren Riwle, a treatise which an examination of the Corpus Christi manuscript 402 shows to be of older date than the year 1200, the sisters are instructed that, at the recitation both of the Gloria Patri and the Ave Maria in the Office, they are either to genuflect or to incline profoundly according to the ecclesiastical season. In this way, owing to the fatigue of these repeated prostrations and genuflections, the recitation of a number of Hail Marys was often regarded as a penitential exercise, and it is recorded of certain canonized saints, e.g. the Dominican nun St. Margaret (d. 1292), daughter of the King of Hungary, that on certain days she recited the Ave a thousand times with a thousand prostrations. This concept of the Hail Mary as a form of salutation explains in some measure the practice, which is certainly older than the epoch of St. Dominic, of repeating the greeting as many as 150 times in succession. The idea is akin to that of the “Holy, Holy, Holy”, which we are taught to think goes up continually before the throne of the Most High.

 

[Link0126]

Biblical foundation of the use of relics:

2 Kings 13:20-21 - contact with Elisha’s bones restored life
Acts 5:15-16 - cures performed through Peter’s shadow
Acts 19:11-12 - cures through cloths that touched Paul

 

[lutherlic]

Will,

Intercessory prayer is simply asking someone else to pray for your intentions. Do people at your church have prayer groups, prayer chains or the like? Does anyone ever say “he/she needs our prayers?” Prayer is powerful and the more people praying for an intention, the better.

We believe in the communion of saints (ref: Nicene Creed) which includes the Church Militant (us here on Earth), the Church Suffering (those on the way to heaven but being cleansed) and the Church Triumphant (in heaven). All can pray for our intentions. Those in heaven (i.e. Saints, including the Blessed Virgin) are “closer” to God than we are so their prayers are especially helpful. We worship only God, no one and no thing else.

Some responses have quoted the Catechism. This is the authoritative reference for what we believe. It is very inexpensive and will reliably answer many questions. Amazon (and everyone else!) has it.

One last thought for you as you take the faith journey – it is a well traveled path! I publish a list of people who have converted and blog about their conversion stories, including Anglicans and Episcopalians. I also have links to other sources (e.g. non-blogging) convert stories and a good list of books written by converts. This stuff is at ConvertJournal.com/convert-stories/.