Considering converting from atheism to Catholicism, but am wondering about Leviticus 16:30

[JoeShlabotnik]

Very well said!

 

[Pattylt]

In Hebrews, it explains how Jesus is the replacement of the yearly blood sacrifices. Jews had to perform the ritual on a yearly basis due to it not being a perfect sacrifice. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, once for all and perfectly replaces the Levitical practice. Hebrews isn’t an easy read so make sure you have some good commentary with it but this part is pretty clear.

 

[midori]

I’m willing to accept that. But what does Leviticus mean when it says “clean before the Lord from all your sins”?

It’s probably similar to the discussion about divorce. If you remember your Matthew—

Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?”

Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’a and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’b ? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses order a man to give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

Jesus replied, “It was because of your hardness of heart that Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but it was not this way from the beginning. Now I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery.”

So similarly, the Hebrews were all, “We know how we want to worship God!” And God’s like, “Um, this is how I want to be worshipped.” And the Hebrews are all, “Yeah, no, that’s not cool enough. We want to be like the people around us.” And then Moses is all, “Well, okay. We can do x, y, and z, but just promise not to pull any more Golden Calf shenanigans, okay?” And so the ceremony is given to them to fulfill their human desire for something external they can see— with the expectation that the importance of the internal will eventually be grasped.

The Prophets are full of God’s disdain for rituals that are lacking clean hearts behind them—

You have your Isaiah–

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me?" sayeth the Lord. "I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or of he-goats…bring no more vain oblations… Your new moon and your appointed feasts my soul hateth;…and when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.

And your Amos–

I hate, I despise your feasts, and I will take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Yea, though you offer me burnt-offerings and your meal offerings, I will not accept them neither will I regard the peace-offerings of your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy song; and let Me not hear the melody of thy psalteries. But let justice well up as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

And your Jeremiah–

For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them on the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-offerings or sacrifices; but this thing I commanded them, saying, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people; and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

 

[midori]

I don’t do Hebrew myself, but it’s my understanding that in the Leviticus passages that talk about “When you bring your sacrifice…”, the Hebrew word has a voluntary connotation to it, that further underlines the fact that the animal sacrifices were more to satisfy the Hebrews’ desire to worship God in a particular way congruent with the practices of other cultures in the ancient Middle East, rather than God’s particular desire for animal blood.

So the voluntary implications show that the blood itself is more of an “extra” than anything that has an intrinsic value on its own.

 

[WinterSunrise]

I’m willing to accept that. But what does Leviticus mean when it says “clean before the Lord from all your sins”?

I would have thought that in the times before Jesus, a ritualistic (yet sincere) repentance would not have been enough to avoid hell for a sin against an infinitely holy God? Or is the idea of a sin against an infinitely holy God a protestant teaching?

 

[Pattylt]

ould have thought that in the times before Jesus, a ritualistic (yet sincere) repentance would not have been enough to avoid hell for a sin against an infinitely holy God? Or is the idea of a sin against an infinitely holy God a protestant teaching?

Jews recognizes two types of sin…personal and community. The Yom Kippur ceremony was an atonement of all community sin which also included personal sin if one was truly contrite…which included asking those you sinned against for forgiveness. Jews didn’t have the concept of Hell that the Christians had.

 

[Diaconia]

While it is possible to study yourself into knowledge of Christianity; the journey is one to a Person.

That’s why most people journey through the RCIA process. You will walk with others, covering these sorts of questions in an environment constructed for that purpose.

A journey filled with God’s word, mentors and rituals and sacramentals to assist your journey. I would encourage you to join an RCIA program near you.

Deacon Christopher

 

[WinterSunrise]

ould have thought that in the times before Jesus, a ritualistic (yet sincere) repentance would not have been enough to avoid hell for a sin against an infinitely holy God? Or is the idea of a sin against an infinitely holy God a protestant teaching?

So do I have this correct now then? There was Sheol, also known as Abraham’s bosom, but then after Jesus came people went either to heaven - the Kingdom of Christ’s body that also extends to Earth - or went outside of that, to hell. So even though there is no repentance after death, people who died before Jesus’ resurrection still were allowed to partake in Jesus’ sacrifice and enter heaven.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Not only was contrition necessary for the blood ritual, but the ritual itself was insufficient for the atonement of intentional sins against one’s fellow man. It was only intended for unintentional sins directly against G-d Himself, both as personal atonement and communal atonement of the people. It clearly states in the Hebrew Bible that the principal means of atonement was NOT animal sacrifice but prayer and alms-giving. Today, there are no animal sacrifices at all but prayer toward G-d and good deeds toward the people we have wronged are still the means of atonement, particularly during the Days of Awe from Rosh Hashanah to Yom Kippur. The only ritual present today consists of throwing bread crumbs in a body of water on Rosh Hashanah. This is interesting because those Jews who lived a great distance from the Temple and could not be present during the blood ritual were permitted to use flour instead to symbolize the casting off of sins.

As to the sacrifice of the lamb during the feast of Passover, this animal was thought to be one of the Egyptian gods, and the act of smearing the blood of this god on one’s doorpost was meant to show the lack of fear and the defiance the Jews had for the gods of Egypt and their trust only in the G-d of Israel to save them from the Angel of Death as well as their persecutors.

 

[midori]

o even though there is no repentance after death, people who died before Jesus’ resurrection still were allowed to partake in Jesus’ sacrifice and enter heaven.

Well, sure. Because otherwise, you’d have Moses, Abraham, Elijah, David, Jacob, and all the prophets out of luck, because they happened to have been born too early. “Love you guys, thanks for all your hard work on earth, and you did a good job laying the groundwork for the First Coming— but sorry y’all preexisted the physical incarnation of the Redeemer and lost out on the beatific vision for eternity.”

We structure our lives accordingly, so that we can live to the best of our ability-- loving God, loving our neighbor, seeing Jesus in those around us, protecting the weak, giving with a generous heart, and so on. And we know we’ll be measured with our own measure.

All sin is sin against an infinitely holy God, in addition to anyone else it might have harmed. That’s the nature of sin-- it’s why it’s bad, because sin is that which separates us from the source of All Good. And that’s why Jesus was so radical, because he said, “I forgive you…” But unless he’s God, he has no business forgiving anyone. If I steal your lunch money, you can forgive me, and God can forgive me, but the guy at the gas station can’t forgive me, or the clerk at the grocery store can’t forgive me, because it didn’t involve them.

So Christ’s ability/willingness to forgive sins is either ridiculously presumptuous, or a claim to Divinity.

 

[WinterSunrise]

I no longer see any problem that I raised in this topic. This gives me greater confidence that I will eventually convert.