Considering Leaving Mormonism For Traditional Christianity...

[GaryTaylor]

I think I’ll balance that out with some critical writings on it as well.

My prayers are with you.

 

[KathleenGee]

I prayed for you last night…and I know the troubles Mormons have when leaving…

Christ is calling you home…the sense people have when they finally enter the Church.

With your baptism, you are still Catholic. And I am afraid you will be coerced and hounded if you say anything to your quorum. The Catholic Church does not have its members go after a Catholic who is considering leaving…

If any Catholic would hound a member wanting to leave the Catholic Church, it would be the person’s Catholic’s mother. She will not give up. She will pray all the time for her kids. I know because I am one.

I agree with Porknpie and Gary…Pray to the Holy Spirit and pray He lead you to a priest, and watch ETWN.

 

[Marie5890]

Yet, I do miss praying directly to Him, and worshipping Him.

Not sure what is in your area, but if you miss the sense of directly worshiping Christ, and if your schedule permits, try making it out to one of the Triduum’s services. On Holy Thursday there is the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper. Or veneration of the Cross on Good Friday. Of course there is always the Easter Vigil or the Easter Sunday Masses as well.

I know for me, after having left Mormonism, my first experience of attending the Easter Triduum’s liturgies I had a profound sense of worshiping Christ. And I had been attending Mass for several months prior to that. But my Triduum worship experience was even different from that.

I find all of Holy Week a very strong Christ centered worship experience.
God Bless

 

[pablope]

Thanks all for the prayers and thoughts! I appreciate them.

Now, I don’t really want this thread to be about me (even though, yeah it is), but more about the specific issues that I have with certain LDS beliefs/practices/history. Granted, these could each be a thread in themselves so…we’ll see.

And let’s say down the road I decide to be Catholic again. I don’t even know how I’d do that, what with being Elders Quorum President. I couldn’t just fade away like some people do, since I’m a leader in my congregation, and I don’t know if I could do that to the people that really believe and would still be there. But we’ll cross that bridge if and when we have to .

Let me share a few quotes from Clement of Rome…wriiting about 90 AD or so…to the Church at corinth about a strife there…and this is while the Aposlte John is still very much alive here on earth:

42:4 Preaching, therefore, through the countries and cities, they appointed their firstfruits to be bishops and deacons over such as should believe, after they had proved them in the Spirit.

42:5 And this they did in no new way, for in truth it had in long past time been written concerning bishops and deacons; for the scripture, in a certain place, saith in this wise: I will establish their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.

44:1 Our Apostles, too, by the instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ, knew that strife would arise concerning the dignity of a bishop;
44:2 and on this account, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed the above-mentioned as bishops and deacons: and then gave a rule of succession, in order that, when they had fallen asleep, other men, who had been approved, might succeed to their ministry.

57:1 Do ye, therefore, that have laid the foundation of the sedition submit yourselves to the presbyters, and be chastised to repentance, bending the knees of your hearts.

59:1 But if some should be disobedient to the things spoken by him through us, let them know that they will entangle themselves in no small transgression and danger,

 

[pablope]

Thanks! Yes, I am reading the Bible and praying. Maybe I will add more fasting during this Lenten season. I do somewhat miss worshipping Christ. I mean, don’t get me wrong, as a LDS, I do believe in and accept Christ as my divine Savior (ignoring our differences on the nature of Christ of course ), love reading about Him, we pray in His name, perform our ordinances in His name, etc. Yet, I do miss praying directly to Him, and worshipping Him.

I was listening to the Journey Home yesterday…it was the episode dated…2/11/2013…ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-6892289&T1=Journey

She describes how she encountered true worship…when she attended a mass for the first time…and a retired old priest was saying the mass…and the priest spent a lot of energy just exerting himself…to consecrate the host…how you have time to listen to it.

God bless and I will pray for you also.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I appreciated Frank Sheed’s books (Theology and Sanity and Theology for Beginners) during my journey. Although, I guess I read them in the wrong order, I found if you read Theology and Sanity first, you won’t need to read the for Beginners.

I have to agree with TruthSeeker, I found as I dug into mormon apologetics that I was disappointed. This was difficult at that point in my journey. I had already drifted pretty far from the religion, but that was nearly the nail in the coffin.

God Bless

Thanks for your thoughts. Thinking about LDS apologetics and what I’ve always read and focused on, I think I can organize my thoughts on what is now troubling to me as this:

LDS apologists and scholars frequently refer to various quotations from ECFs, non-canonical texts, non-mainstream ancient Christians, etc. as evidencing ancient support for various unique LDS beliefs. Yet, despite all of the documentation we have from what Christianity was like after New Testament times, there really is no evidence of a unified Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints, with all of that purported ancient evidence. Instead, evidence is taken from here and there.

I actually already own Theology and Sanity, and took it out from storage recently. I also took out some Scott Hahn books “Swear to God-The Promise and Power of the Sacraments”, “Signs of Life-40 Catholic Customs and Their Biblical Roots”, “The Lamb’s Supper-The Mass as Heaven on Earth”.

 

[LivingWaters7]

With due respect, does it really matter where it came from if it isn’t scripture? I guess I can understand in an academic sort of way why the question may be interesting, but I thought your principal concern here was to test what the LDS Church says about herself? In this case I’d think what’s most pressing is simply seeing if the Book of Mormon can stand up to scrutiny as the kind of literature it purports to be.

That is true. I think if/once I conclude that the Book of Mormon (and other latter-day scriptures) are not scripture, that’s that. Wondering where it came from wouldn’t cause me to refrain from taking the appropriate steps, but I would be intellectually curious as to where it came from.

As far as trying to hone in on Apostolic and early Patristic beliefs, I’d recommend finding “A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs” by David W. Bercot. It’s formatted as a dictionary, so it’s not something you’ll want to sit down and read cover to cover. I have found that it came in quite handy as a reference tool to get myself started whenever I wanted to delve into a specific kind of belief. I could look up, for example, ‘Eucharist’, and find 30 or so quotes from up until the late 3rd century and the source from whence they came. After that I could exercise a little google fu in finding exegetical works concerning the quotes.

Sounds like a great reference. Added to my wish list.

Thanks for pointing out that “Pope or Prophet” online debate. I just started thumbing through it and it looks pretty heavy with Patristic writing.

Yeah, it’s pretty good, IMO.

 

[LivingWaters7]

LW,

A big congratulations.

Myself and I know others have prayed for you individually and for Mormons in general (interesting what you learn when private messaging others). Jesus says to follow him, even at the expense of ones family. Your parish is family in a sense of the word. You really have to put Christ first. He may very well be using you as a witness to others and over time, others will inquire about your journey and perhaps follow you.

My recommendation would be for you to contact your local Catholic Church and speak to a Priest. They will be delighted to speak with you. They gave their life to Christ and his Church to help all come to Christ and heed his call. Understand the Priest is there to help you understand the Church teachings…to help you discern…reflect…understand…milk and meat…with no pressure to join. I should note that Catholic Churches have a formal education and initiation program called RCIA…Rite for Christian Initiation of Adults. RCIA starts in August with meetings weekly with candidates entering the Church at Easter.

Also recommend the audio catechism below, especially if you have a commute or enjoy listening as a learning type.

Pork

Thanks. I think for now, I’ll probably just go to a Catholic church just to go, and consider talking to a priest later on.

Oh and if I didn’t make it clear, RCIA wouldn’t be necessary if it comes to that, I’m a confirmed Catholic.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Been there. I am, by nature, a leader. I was an officer in the Army, am an officer in the Guard, am a managing attorney, was on city council. I do not say this to show my resume, but to show that we may have similar natures.

One of the things I did was become a Lector and a Eucharistic Minister. I got involved with Knight of Columbus. There are plenty of ways not to fade away.

As to your friends, etc…you can be a great influence on them. People who looked up to you might ask questions.

Good books, by the way…I read those, too…only years after I left the Church.

Guess I’ll stop ignoring you boss, even though I never had you on “ignore”, haha.

Yeah, I used to be a Lector and a Eucharistic Minister as well. By “fade away”, I mean fading away from the LDS Church. As I’m sure you know, as Elders Quorum President, I have various responsibilities and am a leader in the ward. I have to go to ward council, attend Elders Quorum on Sundays, and am basically in charge of the brethren in my ward. Sure, I could ask my counselors and secretary to run EQ or go to ward council when I’m not there, but that’s more the exception than the rule, and the bishopric would probably start wondering why I’m…absentee leading, essentially. In contrast, if I didn’t have a calling, or such an “important”/visible calling, I could just slowly stop attending church, and gradually “fade away”. This happens all the time (we’re supposed to be helping to “reactivate” brethren that haven’t been to church in a long time, some respond, many don’t). So, leaving, at least at this point, would be more complicated.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Not sure what is in your area, but if you miss the sense of directly worshiping Christ, and if your schedule permits, try making it out to one of the Triduum’s services. On Holy Thursday there is the Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper. Or veneration of the Cross on Good Friday. Of course there is always the Easter Vigil or the Easter Sunday Masses as well.

I know for me, after having left Mormonism, my first experience of attending the Easter Triduum’s liturgies I had a profound sense of worshiping Christ. And I had been attending Mass for several months prior to that. But my Triduum worship experience was even different from that.

I find all of Holy Week a very strong Christ centered worship experience.
God Bless

Thanks. I live in a major city, so we have everything . I’ll look into one of those services for sure.

Yes, worshiping Christ…or just “worship” in general, is what I miss. I’m sure you understand what I’m talking about. Even as much as I love the temple, walking around the quiet halls, sitting in a hallway or the Celestial Room and praying/meditating/reading scripture, it’s not the same…

 

[LivingWaters7]

Let me share a few quotes from Clement of Rome…wriiting about 90 AD or so…to the Church at corinth about a strife there…and this is while the Aposlte John is still very much alive here on earth:

42:4 Preaching, therefore, through the countries and cities, they appointed their firstfruits to be bishops and deacons over such as should believe, after they had proved them in the Spirit.

42:5 And this they did in no new way, for in truth it had in long past time been written concerning bishops and deacons; for the scripture, in a certain place, saith in this wise: I will establish their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.

44:1 Our Apostles, too, by the instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ, knew that strife would arise concerning the dignity of a bishop;
44:2 and on this account, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed the above-mentioned as bishops and deacons: and then gave a rule of succession, in order that, when they had fallen asleep, other men, who had been approved, might succeed to their ministry.

57:1 Do ye, therefore, that have laid the foundation of the sedition submit yourselves to the presbyters, and be chastised to repentance, bending the knees of your hearts.

59:1 But if some should be disobedient to the things spoken by him through us, let them know that they will entangle themselves in no small transgression and danger,

Very interesting…so he’s saying that the apostles gave them a method of succession for bishops and deacons. I’m assuming it is taught that Clement of Rome was instructed/ordained by one of the apostles?

What it comes down to for a Latter-day Saint considering Catholicism or Orthodoxy (or any other traditional church) is the role of apostles vs. bishops. This is how we think: In the New Testament Church, we see apostles as the chief leaders of the Church. When there was a vacancy in the “quorum of the twelve apostles”, it was filled…with an apostle. Catholics may give this an example of apostolic succession, but for us, for there to be apostolic succession, there has to be a succession of apostles. Bishops are not apostles. So, what happened there? That’s why I find/found the LDS understanding attractive: apostles are present in this day, and apostles succeed apostles. For me to find the Catholic/Orthodox position reasonable (again, I’m trying to not only exercise faith, but also reason!), I’d have to understand how bishops succeed apostles, and the equivalence (or lack thereof) of authority between the two.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Thanks. I live in a major city, so we have everything . I’ll look into one of those services for sure.

Hey I finally looked at your profile. We live in the same city and attend the same university! Small world.

If you have the time and the desire to do so, I’d recommend attending the Holy Saturday Vigil Mass. It’s a bit lengthy (~2 hours), but the liturgy is quite stunning. It’s also probably the most Christ-centric Catholic liturgy I’ve ever been to such that I’ve been able to bring Mormons before and they loved it. You’ll also get to witness the Sacraments of Initiation of the Catechumens.

Where in the city do you live? If you’re anywhere close to the Lower Pac Heights / Fillmore area you should come visit us at St. Dominic’s some time.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

What it comes down to for a Latter-day Saint considering Catholicism or Orthodoxy (or any other traditional church) is the role of apostles vs. bishops. This is how we think: In the New Testament Church, we see apostles as the chief leaders of the Church. When there was a vacancy in the “quorum of the twelve apostles”, it was filled…with an apostle. Catholics may give this an example of apostolic succession, but for us, for there to be apostolic succession, there has to be a succession of apostles. Bishops are not apostles. So, what happened there? That’s why I find/found the LDS understanding attractive: apostles are present in this day, and apostles succeed apostles. For me to find the Catholic/Orthodox position reasonable (again, I’m trying to not only exercise faith, but also reason!), I’d have to understand how bishops succeed apostles, and the equivalence (or lack thereof) of authority between the two.

That’s all well and good, but we first need to define the qualifications to be a member of the Twelve. I Corinthians chapter 9 pretty explicitly spells it out that one has to have witnessed the Risen Christ. It becomes obvious then that at some point in time there would be nobody who could fulfill this qualification. The Church having been “built upon the foundation of prophets and apostles” no more means that we must have current members of the Twelve (or explicit public prophecy for that matter) than it would mean that our US President must’ve fought in the Revolutionary War if I were to say that our nation was founded on the foundation of the blood of patriots.

I think we also need to be careful with how we’re using the word ‘Apostle’ since the New Testament itself seems to toss around various definitions. It seems fairly clear to me in the Gospels that ‘Apostle’ explicitly refers to a member of the 12 (and subsequently the 11), yet as we make our way to Acts and the Pauline epistles, we start to see Apostle to mean anyone sent by the commission of the Church (including Mathias after Jesus already ascended to Heaven and Paul who was made an “Apostle” by revelation). In these other more broader definitions of Apostle, we can indeed refer to our Catholic Bishops as Apostles. It also isn’t unheard of to hear certain Bishops of antiquity to be referred to as “Apostles of such-and-such land” if they were one of the first to bring the Gospel to those areas (here I’m thinking St. Patrick the Apostle to Ireland.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Hey I finally looked at your profile. We live in the same city and attend the same university! Small world.

If you have the time and the desire to do so, I’d recommend attending the Holy Saturday Vigil Mass. It’s a bit lengthy (~2 hours), but the liturgy is quite stunning. It’s also probably the most Christ-centric Catholic liturgy I’ve ever been to such that I’ve been able to bring Mormons before and they loved it. You’ll also get to witness the Sacraments of Initiation of the Catechumens.

Where in the city do you live? If you’re anywhere close to the Lower Pac Heights / Fillmore area you should come visit us at St. Dominic’s some time.

Ya, I noticed awhile ago that you go to UCSF too! I’m in the Pharm school, and am actually in NYC on away rotations right now (trying to get my foot in the door at NY-Pres and NYU). When I go back to SF in the summer I’ll be sure to check out St. Dominic’s and let ya know.

I’ll try to attend a Holy Saturday Vigil Mass here in NY if I can (sometimes I’m in the hospital on weekends). Not sure if I’ve ever attended one when I was Catholic.

 

[Marie5890]

Thanks. I live in a major city, so we have everything . I’ll look into one of those services for sure.

Yes, worshiping Christ…or just “worship” in general, is what I miss. I’m sure you understand what I’m talking about. Even as much as I love the temple, walking around the quiet halls, sitting in a hallway or the Celestial Room and praying/meditating/reading scripture, it’s not the same…

Yes, I know exactly what you mean.
Quiet, peaceful, meditative time, as wonderful as it is, and it is wonderful, is still not the same as worship.

Both are needed, for me anyway.

I was unaware that you do come from a Catholic background, and are a confirmed Catholic. Thanks for clarifying that.

As others have said, feel free to PM anyone of us if you feel so inclined. Clearly there is something of a spiritual nature moving in you at this point in time. Just remain open as you seek out answers to your questions. One thing you mentioned was the idea of all relationships being similar or something like that, in the next life.
The way I look at it, my family is still my family. I mean, Mary isnt going to stop being Christ Mother, nor is St Joseph’s relationship to the Lord any less simply because it’s the next life.
Special, close, family relationships dont lessen in value just because we have passed on from this life. Those ties arent broken.

God Bless.

 

[TexanKnight]

Guess I’ll stop ignoring you boss, even though I never had you on “ignore”, haha.

Yeah, I used to be a Lector and a Eucharistic Minister as well. By “fade away”, I mean fading away from the LDS Church. As I’m sure you know, as Elders Quorum President, I have various responsibilities and am a leader in the ward. I have to go to ward council, attend Elders Quorum on Sundays, and am basically in charge of the brethren in my ward. Sure, I could ask my counselors and secretary to run EQ or go to ward council when I’m not there, but that’s more the exception than the rule, and the bishopric would probably start wondering why I’m…absentee leading, essentially. In contrast, if I didn’t have a calling, or such an “important”/visible calling, I could just slowly stop attending church, and gradually “fade away”. This happens all the time (we’re supposed to be helping to “reactivate” brethren that haven’t been to church in a long time, some respond, many don’t). So, leaving, at least at this point, would be more complicated.

Yeah…when I left, I was in the Bishopric (second counselor) a Priesthood Teacher, Stake missionary, and President of the LDS Law School Association. I simply stopped. I could not continue any facade.

And I realized quickly that any friends who were not my friends when I stopped being LDS were not true friends anyway.

 

[LivingWaters7]

That’s all well and good, but we first need to define the qualifications to be a member of the Twelve. I Corinthians chapter 9 pretty explicitly spells it out that one has to have witnessed the Risen Christ. It becomes obvious then that at some point in time there would be nobody who could fulfill this qualification. The Church having been “built upon the foundation of prophets and apostles” no more means that we must have current members of the Twelve (or explicit public prophecy for that matter) than it would mean that our US President must’ve fought in the Revolutionary War if I were to say that our nation was founded on the foundation of the blood of patriots.

I think we also need to be careful with how we’re using the word ‘Apostle’ since the New Testament itself seems to toss around various definitions. It seems fairly clear to me in the Gospels that ‘Apostle’ explicitly refers to a member of the 12 (and subsequently the 11), yet as we make our way to Acts and the Pauline epistles, we start to see Apostle to mean anyone sent by the commission of the Church (including Mathias after Jesus already ascended to Heaven and Paul who was made an “Apostle” by revelation). In these other more broader definitions of Apostle, we can indeed refer to our Catholic Bishops as Apostles. It also isn’t unheard of to hear certain Bishops of antiquity to be referred to as “Apostles of such-and-such land” if they were one of the first to bring the Gospel to those areas (here I’m thinking St. Patrick the Apostle to Ireland.

Ok thanks. Another thing LDS say is that Ephesians 4:11 (and he gave some apostles, some prophets, etc until we attain a unity of faith) shows that because we are not in a unity of faith, apostles, prophets, and all the other offices are needed. However, I guess what you state above could still work in understanding that verse.

So (general question to all) what is the Catholic understanding of apostles vs bishops? The Bishops are successors of the apostles, but does that mean they have the same authority? What are the earliest references available that show that this is the ancient understanding of the issue of authority in the Church?

 

[LivingWaters7]

Yes, I know exactly what you mean.
Quiet, peaceful, meditative time, as wonderful as it is, and it is wonderful, is still not the same as worship.

Both are needed, for me anyway.

Indeed, both are needed. Guess I’m lacking in the “worship” aspect. I really miss the various devotional aspects of Catholicism. Heck I miss just dipping my hand in holy water and blessing myself. I’m sitting here looking at my copies of Hahn’s “Signs of Life”, “Lamb’s Supper”, and “Swear to God-Power and Promise of the Sacraments”, and I miss these things. Maybe I’m missing these channels of grace?

It’s funny, whenever I read LDS resources on the temple, and writings trying to tie our temple ordinances with ancient rites, and references are made to writings like from Margaret Barker, it’s interesting to me to see references to how the psalms (or at least some of them?) were recited/sung in the OT temple(s), sacrifice was carried out there, the presence of God was there, bread and wine were there, etc. This sounds SO much more like what goes on in Catholic/Orthodox churches than the LDS temples (yes, we do believe God’s presence is found in the temple through the Spirit). Catholic/Orthodox worship seems to have more in common with ancient Jewish temple worship than the LDS temple, as much as I love the LDS temple.

I was unaware that you do come from a Catholic background, and are a confirmed Catholic. Thanks for clarifying that.

No problem. Yes, I kinda refrained from bringing it up when I started posting here, since I didn’t really want to be…judged I guess. But yes, I’m a confirmed Catholic, so it would be much easier for me to get back to it than going through RCIA.

As others have said, feel free to PM anyone of us if you feel so inclined. Clearly there is something of a spiritual nature moving in you at this point in time. Just remain open as you seek out answers to your questions. One thing you mentioned was the idea of all relationships being similar or something like that, in the next life.
The way I look at it, my family is still my family. I mean, Mary isnt going to stop being Christ Mother, nor is St Joseph’s relationship to the Lord any less simply because it’s the next life.
Special, close, family relationships dont lessen in value just because we have passed on from this life. Those ties arent broken.

God Bless.

Thanks, I’ll turn on my PM again. Yes, I’m very open at this point. I just want the Truth, and not to be wasting my time (which is actually what I’ve been praying lately before I posted this thread). I’ll be going to LDS church tomorrow, though to be honest, I don’t really want to go…argh.

 

[truthseeker32]

LW,

The Catholic Apologist Patrick Madrid has two two-hour long audio debates with Mormons available for download on his website. They are $5 a piece but I think they are worth it. I found those superior to the keys debate you mentioned.

store.patrickmadrid.com/store/digital-downloads/

 

[LivingWaters7]

Yeah…when I left, I was in the Bishopric (second counselor) a Priesthood Teacher, Stake missionary, and President of the LDS Law School Association. I simply stopped. I could not continue any facade.

And I realized quickly that any friends who were not my friends when I stopped being LDS were not true friends anyway.

Yeah I understand. Second Counselor in the Bishopric and you just stopped going, eh? I don’t think I can do that, for some reason. If I was an EQ Counselor, sure, it’d be much easier, but being EQP, there’s so much more responsibility, as I’m sure you know, and if I’m not going to be at church a Sunday, I have to let someone else know so that they can either go to ward council or conduct Elders Quorum…so much of a hassle.