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LivingWaters7
Guest
Oh nice! Downloading soon…
Wow, so much to digest since I opened up this can of worms!
Considering Leaving Mormonism For Traditional Christianity...
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Wow, so much to digest since I opened up this can of worms!
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1AugustSon7
Guest
The whole Catholic Church is the living and visible Temple of the Holy Spirit.
Your true spouse is absolutely perfect, and loves you far more and more perfectly than any creature possibly could. That marriage even in Catholicism will last for ever (eternity). For good reason then dooes our Lord compare His Second Coming to a wedding banquet and feast: an inexhaustibly sumptuous and rich feast that will be celebrated with perfect and inexpressible joy for ever and ever.
The Church is always being lead by the Holy Spirit into the fulness of the truth; He leads us into ever more wisdom and truth.
The Pope and the Bishops are the real and demonstrable direct successors of the Apostles.
See Vatican II’s Dei Verbum (The Word of God) here.
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Phntm
Guest
I can offer my opinion - need more study and I am too new to speak for Catholicism. I have heard that Apostle in Greek means “one who is sent with the authority of the one who sent them” or something like that. So, where I see uses of the term Apostle, I can see where the 12 (including replacements that knew Jesus) would have this term. I can see where Paul would qualify with his conversion. I can see where one could potentially use this term with anyone who is sent (Bishop, deacon, laity in the authority of Christ’s church).
So, what is the difference with a Bishop. I see a Bishop as second generation or later Apostles (as mentioned previously in this thread) they did not have first hand knowledge or specifically called by Christ ala Paul. I feel that Apostle is a title of honor for those individuals that knew or were called by Christ directly. Bishops are their successors.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
LW7, to add to the book recommendations.
“The Religious Sense” by Msgr Luigi Giussani- Msgr Giussani steps through reason and faith, the ways that we reduce faith to something less than it is and brings the focus to the central Reason of Christianity, the Logos, Jesus Christ.
“The Religious Sense” by Msgr Luigi Giussani- Msgr Giussani steps through reason and faith, the ways that we reduce faith to something less than it is and brings the focus to the central Reason of Christianity, the Logos, Jesus Christ.
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KathleenGee
Guest
LW7…may I ask…
Are you a trophy Catholic Mormon?..
Are you gleaning here for more foundational sources…so if you change your mind…you have a good load here to decimate and Mormonize for your Quorum???
You sound more like you are in a candy shop gleaning than going through a conversion process…that takes alot of silence and prayer.
Just wonder…
Are you a trophy Catholic Mormon?..
Are you gleaning here for more foundational sources…so if you change your mind…you have a good load here to decimate and Mormonize for your Quorum???
You sound more like you are in a candy shop gleaning than going through a conversion process…that takes alot of silence and prayer.
Just wonder…
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Indeed. What I mean by “the temple” is having a sacred space regarded as the House of the Lord. A place where you can go to be in the presence of God, perform sacred rites, etc.
Sounds like a Catholic church, right?
Ok. I guess what many LDS “worry” is that without sealing ordinances, we will no longer have the same relationships with our spouses, children, parents, etc. I know that I want to be with my parents, siblings, future wife, etc. for eternity, if we are all saved by God’s grace.
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that revelation from God ended. While “public revelation”, a very specific subset of revelation, ended, that doesn’t mean that the Heavens are closed, that God doesn’t speak, etc. Catholics very much believe that their church is led by God, and individuals receive inspiration from God too (and of course the various apparitions and private revelations that have apparently continued).
I’ll have to look into that more, as it’s a very important issue for a LDS (the issue of authority, as that’s what it comes down to: was a Restoration necessary).
Thanks.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Right “apostle” means “one who is sent”. I guess the hangup is whether apostles are to succeed apostles, or whether the bishops were given the authority of the apostles by the apostles to lead the Church.
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1AugustSon7
Guest
You’re welcome.Indeed. What I mean by “the temple” is having a sacred space regarded as the House of the Lord. A place where you can go to be in the presence of God, perform sacred rites, etc.
Sounds like a Catholic church, right?
Ok. I guess what many LDS “worry” is that without sealing ordinances, we will no longer have the same relationships with our spouses, children, parents, etc. I know that I want to be with my parents, siblings, future wife, etc. for eternity, if we are all saved by God’s grace.
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that revelation from God ended. While “public revelation”, a very specific subset of revelation, ended, that doesn’t mean that the Heavens are closed, that God doesn’t speak, etc. Catholics very much believe that their church is led by God, and individuals receive inspiration from God too (and of course the various apparitions and private revelations that have apparently continued).
I’ll have to look into that more, as it’s a very important issue for a LDS (the issue of authority, as that’s what it comes down to: was a Restoration necessary).
Thanks.
And in heaven we will be privileged to spend eternity with the good Lord and the entire company of His family forever and ever. This is the bible’s doctrine (see the Song of Solomon, which is about Christ and His beloved Bride, the Church, and any of the parables that mention the sacred banquet or wedding feast; see also the wedding feast at Cana as the public inauguration of the Saviour’s miracles). God’s Church is the family of God, inclusive of all the saints and the just throughout the ages (e.g., the Patriarchs and prophets of the OT or the Apostles &co of the NT).
The Church is praying for you.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Added to my wish list, thanks.
Rebecca, how do you see the reasonableness of Catholicism vs the LDS faith? Granted, many things must be accepted on faith, but how do you view faith and reason within the Catholic faith compared to in the LDS faith? For me, sometimes I feel like I have to…“turn off” a certain thought or concern. For example, when I think about the priesthood ban, I often wonder “how do we not know why it happened? why did God let it go on for so long? it must have been right if He did and was still directing the Church, right? But how could He do that, when the Bible says that Christ wanted us to go to all nations? Didn’t the Church directly limit going to certain nations because of the ban (we have quotes from certain leaders that say essentially that)?”. I then push the thoughts away, and think about something else, or just remember “that was a different time, it doesn’t matter anymore”. Maybe I’m just rambling.
Also, do you have any thoughts on the difference between Catholic sacraments and LDS ordinances? Naturally, the major difference is in the Eucharist vs Sacrament. However it seems that Catholics emphasize (it’s been awhile, so not sure if I’m remembering correctly) the access of God’s grace through the sacraments, while in the LDS faith, we talk about the Spirit, but…I don’t think we really talk about it in a defined way (except with the Sacrament, which specifically states that we may have God’s Spirit to be with us), so when I go to an Endowment session, for example, because I already did my own Endowment, when I go back, it’s for a deceased person, so I’m not being “re-endowed”, so to speak. Does this make sense?
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TexanKnight
Guest
I wish we could talk. So much of what you ask I went through.
It is not easy and I hope you know you have prayers propping you up
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Firstly
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
The reason why I’m here is because I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. I’ve thought about it periodically, but since Pope Benedict XVI stepped down, and Catholicism has been in the news (more) lately, with talk of the coming Conclave, I’ve thought a lot more about what I left than before.
I’ve lurked here for some time (mostly because the LDS related threads can get contentious). Then, a few days ago, I read this post by xixxvmcm85. He (she?) something that blew my mind-"There didn’t exist a single cohesive group of Christians you could point to and say “Yep! These are the Former-day Saints!" No matter how much the LDS want to cherry-pick the doctrines of heretics to show that there was a semblance of LDS doctrine before the so-called restoration, none of these groups alone professed the entirety of Mormon faith.” I had thought about this before, but never really put much stock into it. But it’s right. I have, many times, referenced various ancient writings as proof of the ancient origin of certain LDS beliefs, and that they didn’t just pop up in the 1800s. Yet, there is no “single cohesive group of Christians” with these beliefs. Why is that? Was the evidence destroyed (I don’t think so)? Did they leave no writings? Is it all lost in the sands of time? That’s when I sat myself down, thought about the other issues I’ve had at times with certain LDS beliefs in the context of ancient Judaism and Christianity (from the earliest centuries, ante-Nicene) and then I decided to post the thread here.
Trust me, I have been praying a lot, asking God for guidance to the Truth, and that I don’t want to be living a lie, wasting my time on something that has no eternal significance, as great as the social benefits may or may not be in this life.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Thanks, yes, that’s very true.
Thank you, yes I’m grateful for all the prayers. I’ll PM you sometime.
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KathleenGee
Guest
LW7…glad you got a good laugh.
Reading posts here over the years, every so often…you read about a Catholic who came into Mormonism…and the stakers really flaunted the ‘conversion.’
How they looooove us Catholics!
Keep you in prayer. Go slow.
Think about an escape route.
Reading posts here over the years, every so often…you read about a Catholic who came into Mormonism…and the stakers really flaunted the ‘conversion.’
How they looooove us Catholics!
Keep you in prayer. Go slow.
Think about an escape route.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
In light of Christ, who died for all and opened the gates of heaven for all of humanity, I can’t see how anyone would accept the concept of a ban that denied people ordinances you have described in this thread as central to being LDS. LDS arguments will say God can change his mind, but this is not the Catholic view. Jesus is God’s Word, everything we reason is measured against Him. While LDS view truth as pragmatic, ever changing based on circumstance, for Catholics truth is revealed in Jesus Christ and does not change.
Mormon ordinances are viewed as stepping stones to godhood. There is a strong element of “worthiness”, where the ordinances are not effective or can even be removed entirely, if the person isn’t worthy. In Catholicism, Sacraments are outward signs of an inward grace, grace being gifts of the Holy Spirit. There is no idea that one has personal worthiness or the Sacraments fade or can be taken away. They aren’t stepping stones to godhood.
Each that seem to be similar have major differences. The Eucharist is very different. Baptism is as well. As a baptized Catholic, the graces of your baptism will help you discern truth. Pray for God to protect you from what is false.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
LW7, contrast our understanding of baptism to what a Mormon said to me shortly after I started posting here. I was not yet a baptized Catholic. He gave the opinion that because I left the Mormon church, I was in darkness and the Holy Ghost would not guide me to truth. For me, in my own experience of what God was doing in my life, statements like that underline why Mormonism is false.
For Mormons though, statements like that cause you to doubt your own ability to reason. If you decide to leave Mormonism, you will face similar statements from some LDS that you know, and random strangers who think they need to help “fix” you.
God created you as a rational creature, with the ability to reason. Reason and faith are not at odds,as they both are gifts of God. The graces we receive in the Sacraments do not speak to faith alone, they speak to reason as well.
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Marie5890
Guest
Thanks for that, Rebecca.
This cant be stressed enough with Mormonism. For Mormonism to work, you have to suspend the God given ability to reason. You have to deny a part of you that God Himself created.
In subtle ways, the GA’s of the LDS church encourage it’s membership to suspend reason. And to ignore Mormonism real, unvarnished history.
That should raise serious red flags for anyone.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Stepping stones to godhead…you are walking over one rotten and forbidden fruit at a time.
On the waning Great Apostasy thread, I asked Arandur his background. And he said after all his studies, the Catholic Church is the only one that is fully logical and reasonable.
That is because it is professing and acting on the truth that we are each made in the image of God through free will and intellect.
One of the first signs of a cult, is ‘trust me’…and stop thinking.
Run.
On the waning Great Apostasy thread, I asked Arandur his background. And he said after all his studies, the Catholic Church is the only one that is fully logical and reasonable.
That is because it is professing and acting on the truth that we are each made in the image of God through free will and intellect.
One of the first signs of a cult, is ‘trust me’…and stop thinking.
Run.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
I usually ignore your posts because, quite frankly, I find them incoherent, and this one certainly does little to disabuse me of such a conclusion.
I’m granting myself an exception to my standard operating procedure because I find this post likewise incredibly rude, and I believe it would betray both evangelism and good manners to let this go without speaking up. I genuinely believe you owe LW an apology.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Thank you for your high standards!
We were having another Mormon stating he was leaving at same time…and having been on Mormon threads for a number of years now, I have seen tricks of trades.
Sorry, LW to have caused you any offense, and likewise to you for my ongoing incoherence.
We were having another Mormon stating he was leaving at same time…and having been on Mormon threads for a number of years now, I have seen tricks of trades.
Sorry, LW to have caused you any offense, and likewise to you for my ongoing incoherence.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
I see I was a bit hasty in my response, as later on in the thread LW (being the good sport that he is) took your post light heartedly while still giving you a serious answer. I therefore apologize for my own snark in my previous post
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