Considering Leaving Mormonism For Traditional Christianity...

[LivingWaters7]

Then you would love the Catholic Church where he truly dwells; body, blood, soul and divinity.

Well yeah, that’s the comparison I’m making, that in Catholicism, there is the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and therefore all Catholic churches are believed to be places where God dwells in a special way, just like in the OT temple(s).

 

[SteveVH]

Well yeah, that’s the comparison I’m making, that in Catholicism, there is the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and therefore all Catholic churches are believed to be places where God dwells in a special way, just like in the OT temple(s).

Exactly. The Holy of Holies.

 

[twopekinguys]

Well yeah, that’s the comparison I’m making, that in Catholicism, there is the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and therefore all Catholic churches are believed to be places where God dwells in a special way, just like in the OT temple(s).

Can I get an AMEN up in here!?!

 

[xixxvmcm85]

What are some examples of post-New Testament Catholic prophets?

One can essentially point to any Catholic mystic, visionary, or person fortunate enough to have experienced an apparition. There doesn’t exist an exhaustive list of such Catholic prophecies, and as I understand it, there were a couple dozen just in the last century alone. How many were officially approved by the Church as “worthy of belief” I cannot say, and its not a subject I much follow to be perfectly honest. One of the much more recent ones alleging to have foretold the Rwandan Genocide seems quite compelling to me, though I’m still trying to find out if the seers had ever recounted their stories prior to the start of the genocide. Unfortunately the only information about chronology I can find concerns when their Bishop judged the apparition worthy.

Concerning Bickmore’s rebuttal you quoted, I’m not very impressed by his debating tactics. For example:

One of the claims of the Latter-day Saint faith is that miracles and Divine intervention were restored in the Restoration. This was actually a point in that Pope vs Prophet debate, that after the apostolic age, miracles seemed to decline, and reappeared after the Restoration. Allow me to quote this section of the debate:

**"The Signs of an Apostle

Paul reminisced about a former visit to Corinth, “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” (2 Corinthians 12:12) The online Catholic Encyclopedia article on the “Charismata”, or gifts of the Spirit, has this to say: “The Apostolic office contains in itself a claim to all charismata, for the object of its ordinary working is identical with the object of these special gifts: the sanctification of souls by uniting them in Christ with God.” Now, if the Catholic bishops still have the some “object” of their office as the Apostles, and are the “successors” of the Apostles, shouldn’t their office have the same claim to the charismata as the Apostolate? If the Catholic bishops are really “successors of the Apostles”, let us see some “signs of an apostle”.**

Bickmore is committing the fallacy of composition here. As I stated earlier, The apostles were a subset of bishops. They were indeed the very first bishops, but that does not make all bishops apostles! He asserts, fallaciously, that as successors to the apostles, bishops necessarily must exercise the same charismata as the apostles since apostles are part of the episcopacy.

Do the Roman Catholic bishops exhibit these signs? What about the Pope? With reference to “Papal infallibility”, Catholic Apologist David Goldstein admits, "It means not that the Pope is inspired…"13 The article on the “Charismata” says of the gift of prophecy, “In the course of time prophecy became less common, without, however, ever disappearing altogether.” So apparently the prophetic gifts are still out there - just not with the Pope. Anywhere BUT with the Pope!

Did you catch that sleight of hand!? In defining Papal Infallibility, Goldstein tells us that infallibility does not mean the Pope is inspired. Yet this doesn’t preclude any particular Pope from being inspired. Bickmore then takes the inverse, builds a strawman with it, and proceeds to torch the sucker the ground. “It doesn’t mean the Pope is inspired” is not equivalent to “It means the Pope is not inspired”.

For the duration of his quote, I get the sense that he’s too heavily relying on this one Gift of the Spirit. He makes it seem as if LDS treat prophecy like Pentecostals treat speaking in tongues. In I Corinthians chapter 15, St. Paul stresses that as the body of Christ we all constitute different organs of that body, and so we all receive different gifts in different proportion. Furthermore, if I were him, I’d be very careful with his argument that a supposed decline in prophecy in the Catholic church indicates an apostasy. Anybody know when the last “Thus saith the LORD” kind of prophecy has been uttered by an LDS prophet? Except for the two addenda, when was the last addition to the Doctrine & Covenants?

 

[Marie5890]

Well yeah, that’s the comparison I’m making, that in Catholicism, there is the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and therefore all Catholic churches are believed to be places where God dwells in a special way, just like in the OT temple(s).

A couple of years ago we had a man in our RCIA program who is/was Jewish. He and his wife had been checking out various denominations in their spiritual journey.

When they came to our parish (and I would say that my pastor celebrates the NO in the manner and spirit that VII envisioned) and experienced Mass, he turned to his wife and said, “Dont care where you go, but this is where I belong. Mass reminds me of what I experience as a Jewish kid growing up and going to service” (I am paraphrasing but that was the thrust of his statement. It reminded him of his worship experience as a Jew)

He and his wife are good friends of mine now and they are still active in our parish

 

[SteveVH]

Can I get an AMEN up in here!?!

and

 

[truthseeker32]

The only reason I didn’t seriously consider the Orthodox is because here, in Utah, Orthodox is associated to ethnicity. I’m not Greek or Russian. I’ve never met a convert to an Orthodox church in Utah. I think in theory they must exist.

I almost was one. There is an Antiochian church I attended in SLC before I really dug into church history and theology, which led me to the Roman Catholic faith. A few parishioners were former Mormons. Most were former protestants.

 

[Phntm]

Yes I can relate to the temple experience.
The endowment ceremony, I found it tedious. Watching the film (I had been thru the temple prior to the changes of what year was it? 1990? there abouts). Watching those films bored me to tears and I felt no sense of worship in the ceremony. More the feeling of being initiated with all of it’s handshakes etc. (so very Masonic in that respect as I would learn years later)
…
I did enjoy the quiet and the peace of being able to sit in the celestial room and ponder and meditate. I can get that, however, out in the fields of our farm or in the woods, and just being quiet)
…

I can relate to some of that. I felt herded like cattle. Watch this film, do this, say these things just right, keep it moving. Then I never could find the peace in the celestial room. Too much bustle; folks talking (in a ‘whisper’), cyclic thrum of the crowds coming through after each iteration of the ceremony, etc. Too be honest, I always felt more calm and peace in libraries, well, not all libraries. But the quiet, “reverence”, etc. of some libraries.

I agree, God’s own creation is a wonderful place to be calm, peaceful, quiet. Like the hush during a snowfall; the gentle, sleepy way the snowflakes drift to the ground. As one example…

 

[LivingWaters7]

I had shared this quote with you…from Clement of Rome, his epistle to Corinth:

earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-lightfoot.html

1Clem 42:4 So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe.
1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration.

Clement of Rome is the 4th pope…and was ordained by St. Peter himself…According to Tertullian, writing c. 199, the Roman Church claimed that Clement was ordained by St. Peter (De Praescript., xxxii), and St. Jerome tells us that in his time “most of the Latins” held that Clement was the immediate successor of the Apostle (Illustrious Men 15).

St. Irenæus (III, iii) tells us that Clement “saw the blessed Apostles and conversed with them, and had yet ringing in his ears the preaching of the Apostles and had their tradition before his eyes, and not he only for many were then surviving who had been taught y the Apostles”.

newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

Thanks, yeah that is interesting. I look forward to reading more about what Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Tertullian, etc. have to say. It’s interesting to think of certain people being ordained and given apostolic authority directly from the apostles. It seems to make the apostles seem more real, that they were actual people that lived anciently, at the beginning of the Church, and passed on their authority to successors, instead of just these people that I only read about in the New Testament, and that’s it (not that the NT isn’t real history).

 

[LivingWaters7]

Third, the priesthood of Aaron existed to offer sacrifices, on behalf of all believers in the covenant of Abraham, for the remission of their sins. Jesus fulfills the sacrifice made in the temple. Catholic priests offer a sacrifice at Mass. That is what the office of a priest does: offer sacrifice. So, what sacrifice to priests offer in Mormonism?? A priestly office has never existed to benefit the individual priest.

For Latter-day Saints, we don’t think about offering sacrifice and priesthood at all. In general, the only sacrifice LDS offer is a broken heart and contrite spirit, though that isn’t a sacrifice only for priesthood holders, but for all members…for LDS, priesthood holders are seen as holding the power and authority of God, calling people to repentance, preaching the Gospel, performing service, and performing the various ordinances for others. I’m sure Catholics view the priesthood as encompassing those things as well, but with the additional component of offering sacrifice. Would that be a fair assessment.

I think your last sentence above is also important. What has been the purpose of the priesthood in Judaism and then Christianity, especially as we read in the Bible (since we hold that in common)? I haven’t really looked into that, but it interesting for me to think about the function of a priest including offering sacrifice.

All the baptized share in the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Any baptized person can give a priesthood blessing. While I am not a cradle Catholic, and didn’t raise any children Catholic, I absolutely love to hear from parents (mom and dad) who make blessing their children a daily thing. Beautiful! I sometimes see it at Mass, where a parent will bless their child with holy water on the way at the door.

That sounds nice. So women can do this as well in Catholicism? And of course you could still ask the priest to perform a blessing too, right? When I was Catholic, I didn’t really have much experience with blessings, whether from a lay person or a priest (I guess I’ve always been the type to “figure it out on my own” and not ask for blessings, except of course in private prayer for guidance). The only time was when I had a medal (forgot what kind) that I took to a priest to have blessed. Thought that was cool to have a blessed object I could wear all the time.

As for worthiness…examining one’s conscience is a very Christian practice. We are called to repentance, but as I already said, the idea that you think you are “worthy”??? …I know I am not worthy of the Cross. How about you? We are made worthy by the Cross, in and through Jesus Christ.

We approach the Eucharist in a state of worthiness because of Jesus Christ, not because of ourselves. There isn’t any way for us to make ourselves worthy. The Cross is the evidence of this. We are forgiven, already, of all of our sins. Again, the Cross is the evidence of this. The Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) is how God makes this reality of grace present to us.

To believe we can sin as much as we like, because God will forgive us, or fearing that our sins are so great we can never be forgiven are both disordered views of Salvation.

I agree.

The OT temple, which existed to make sacrifices to God, and to worship God, is what we call a prefiguring of Jesus Christ. Jesus is our temple. (John 2:19-22) As one of our deacons has clearly stated, without the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in our churches, they are nothing but empty museums.

I would also make an argument that a building is required at all, for the type of sacred space you are describing. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but God is present in all of creation. A walk alone in the mountains of my backyard gives me that sense of sacred space. As Christians, we are called to be present to others, as the hands, face and heart of Jesus Christ.

The Real Presence of Christ, in a Church, is where we are transfigured.

I agree that God is present in all creation, and that it all points back to Him. What I mean by my interest in “sacred space” is that I love that there are sacred, dedicated/set apart places where we can go to be in the presence of God in a special way. It doesn’t discount God’s presence to us outside of that place, or that God can’t speak to us outside of that place, but that these places are, in a sense, places of heightened spiritual experience and the presence of God. For Catholics, churches seem to fit that description in my view, because of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist that is always there, and is therefore a place where God’s presence is found in a special way. I hope that made sense.

I think you will need to discern where God is calling you, and not be distracted. Difficult, I know, but there is a difference between someone who is enamored of Mass because of the one time they went, and someone who is actually seeking truth.

Indeed. I’m definitely not enamored by the Mass, so much as I do miss it. I’ve always said from time to time to my friends that ask that I do miss certain things about Catholicism all the time, and I guess it’s been hitting me harder lately.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I don’t know of any practicing Catholic who doesn’t view Pope Paul VI’s encyclical, Humanae Vitae as prophetic. Here’s a LDS physician who agrees that it is inspired:

"Q: Have you read “Humanae Vitae”?

Stanford: Yes. I first read “Humanae Vitae” in 1991 and several times since then. I think it is an inspired document. I think it captures fundamental aspects of human nature. He [Pope Paul VI] really hits the nail on the head regarding the dark side of contraception, sterilization and abortion and their effects on society.

Although I do not think divorce, promiscuity, teen pregnancy are exclusively the result of contraception, I also think these are not unrelated to contraception. I think contraception is a heavy part of the fuel behind the sexual revolution and many of the problems in society we are facing.

I think “Humanae Vitae” is basically a prophetic statement."

Thanks, yes I think I’ve heard this mentioned before.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Yes I can relate to the temple experience.
The endowment ceremony, I found it tedious. Watching the film (I had been thru the temple prior to the changes of what year was it? 1990? there abouts). Watching those films bored me to tears and I felt no sense of worship in the ceremony. More the feeling of being initiated with all of it’s handshakes etc. (so very Masonic in that respect as I would learn years later)

If people want to understand what the LDS endowment ceremony is like, read up on Masonic rituals. It’s very very Masonic

I did enjoy the quiet and the peace of being able to sit in the celestial room and ponder and meditate. I can get that, however, out in the fields of our farm or in the woods, and just being quiet)

That is why, when I first experienced the Triduum, I was blown away and felt I had actually WORSHIPED God. I never ever had that kind of feeling of worship or praising or giving thanks to God in either Sacrament meeting or the temple.

I have mixed feelings about the Endowment ritual itself. I enjoy the Initiatory (Washing and Anointing), like the reference to Exodus, and the blessings pronounced. With the Endowment proper, the video is…it just is (wish they would update it!). It’s a little anachronistic at times, but I won’t get into that. I like the concept of making covenants with God on various aspects related to the Gospel. I like the concept of symbolically entering into the presence of God, i.e. the Celestial Room. However, it really isn’t a “worship” experience, as it is more an initiation. I agree that the quiet and peace of the Celestial Room is nice. The only worshipful experience I can think of in the Endowment is the prayer circle, where we thank God and ask for His intercession for the sick.

If anything, I’ll be sure to attend one or two liturgies during the Triduum, schedule permitting.

 

[pablope]

Thanks, yeah that is interesting. I look forward to reading more about what Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Tertullian, etc. have to say. It’s interesting to think of certain people being ordained and given apostolic authority directly from the apostles. It seems to make the apostles seem more real, that they were actual people that lived anciently, at the beginning of the Church, and passed on their authority to successors, instead of just these people that I only read about in the New Testament, and that’s it (not that the NT isn’t real history).

You are most welcome. I am not sure if you had looked at the example of St. Paul:

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Paul had a direct revelation from Christ. Yet, from the two passages above, he goes to visit Cephas/Peter and submits himself to Peter. Gal 2: 2 states his purpose…to present his gospel/message to make sure it is in line with the Apostles and what they were handed down from Christ.

The revelation to Paul is to submit himself to the Apostles. Contrast this with the “alledged” revelation to Joseph Smith…to restore a church…a revelation from God will not contradict what has been revealed.

 

[RonniSanMiguel]

I am a lurker, this is my very first post. I was excited to see LivingWaters question his place in the LDS. I have many relatives that are Mormon, and I wish they would ask these important questions as well. I don’t feel I usually have anything to contribute to the forums, but I thought I would mention this:

Ongoing revelations (whether private or public) are still very important within the Catholic Church. I can think of two private revalations that have the official recognition of the Church - The Rosary, and Divine Mercy. These both have become very important in the Church, and it started with private revelation. The Holy Spirit has never left the Catholic Faith! Now back to lurking! Thanks!

 

[batman1973]

One can essentially point to any Catholic mystic, visionary, or person fortunate enough to have experienced an apparition. There doesn’t exist an exhaustive list of such Catholic prophecies, and as I understand it, there were a couple dozen just in the last century alone. How many were officially approved by the Church as “worthy of belief” I cannot say, and its not a subject I much follow to be perfectly honest. One of the much more recent ones alleging to have foretold the Rwandan Genocide seems quite compelling to me, though I’m still trying to find out if the seers had ever recounted their stories prior to the start of the genocide. Unfortunately the only information about chronology I can find concerns when their Bishop judged the apparition worthy.

Concerning Bickmore’s rebuttal you quoted, I’m not very impressed by his debating tactics. For example:

Bickmore is committing the fallacy of composition here. As I stated earlier, The apostles were a subset of bishops. They were indeed the very first bishops, but that does not make all bishops apostles! He asserts, fallaciously, that as successors to the apostles, bishops necessarily must exercise the same charismata as the apostles since apostles are part of the episcopacy.

Did you catch that sleight of hand!? In defining Papal Infallibility, Goldstein tells us that infallibility does not mean the Pope is inspired. Yet this doesn’t preclude any particular Pope from being inspired. Bickmore then takes the inverse, builds a strawman with it, and proceeds to torch the sucker the ground. “It doesn’t mean the Pope is inspired” is not equivalent to “It means the Pope is not inspired”.

For the duration of his quote, I get the sense that he’s too heavily relying on this one Gift of the Spirit. He makes it seem as if LDS treat prophecy like Pentecostals treat spetaking in tongues. In I Corinthians chapter 15, St. Paul stresses that as the body of Christ we all constitute different organs of that body, and so we all receive different gifts in different proportion. Furthermore, if I were him, I’d be very careful with his argument that a supposed decline in prophecy in the Catholic church indicates an apostasy. Anybody know when the last “Thus saith the LORD” kind of prophecy has been uttered by an LDS prophet? Except for the two addenda, when was the last addition to the Doctrine & Covenants?

The Community of Christ has over 165 sections to the Doctrine and Covenants. Remnant LDS have 153 sections. Just sharing that info.

 

[Porknpie]

I am a lurker, this is my very first post. I was excited to see LivingWaters question his place in the LDS. I have many relatives that are Mormon, and I wish they would ask these important questions as well. I don’t feel I usually have anything to contribute to the forums, but I thought I would mention this:

Ongoing revelations (whether private or public) are still very important within the Catholic Church. I can think of two private revalations that have the official recognition of the Church - The Rosary, and Divine Mercy. These both have become very important in the Church, and it started with private revelation. The Holy Spirit has never left the Catholic Faith! Now back to lurking! Thanks!

Ronni, good thoughts above. Welcome…

 

[xixxvmcm85]

The Community of Christ has over 165 sections to the Doctrine and Covenants. Remnant LDS have 153 sections. Just sharing that info.

Interesting. Thanks. I’m assuming the Remnant LDS are Prairie Saints like the CoC, or are they Rocky Mountain Saints (or something else entirely)?

Also, concerning the more recent RLDS (both Reorganized and Remnant) additions, were these “revelations” as in mere “promptings of the Spirit”, or were they full blown visions as were alleged in the early LDS movement?

 

[Marie5890]

I I can think of two private revalations that have the official recognition of the Church - The Rosary, and Divine Mercy. These both have become very important in the Church, and it started with private revelation. The Holy Spirit has never left the Catholic Faith! Now back to lurking! Thanks!

It’s my understanding that the Rosary did not come from private revelation but rather is a tradition grew out of the praying of the psalms…

 

[batman1973]

Interesting. Thanks. I’m assuming the Remnant LDS are Prairie Saints like the CoC, or are they Rocky Mountain Saints (or something else entirely)?

Also, concerning the more recent RLDS (both Reorganized and Remnant) additions, were these “revelations” as in mere “promptings of the Spirit”, or were they full blown visions as were alleged in the early LDS movement?

The Remnant LDS broke away from the CoC. As for the CoC additions, promptings of the Spirit is a good definition. As for the Remnant, a bit of both.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

It’s my understanding that the Rosary did not come from private revelation but rather is a tradition grew out of the praying of the psalms…

Tradition has it that Our Lady revealed the Rosary unto St. Dominic in the 13th century. There is, of course, a modern scholarly view which echoes your own. I attend a Dominic parish and from what I’ve heard from various homilies given before a Novena, the brothers at my church are pretty evenly split on which position to take.