Considering Leaving the Church

[Kevin12]

I have had a long struggle with my faith pretty much since I was in 9th grade. I was in many cases right on the verge of agnosticism. But recently, after looking at some of the Fatima miracles are reading various accounts about even skeptics who did see something there, I have come back to mostly believing.

However, I am also have a lot of problems, and I would have to say most of them have come from lurking various posts on CAF. Especially when I have read posts where several people give long and detailed explanations of why it is basically impossible for unbaptized infants to receive the Beatific Vision, and that the CCC is contradicted on this matter by various Council pronouncements. Or that Protestants, unless they are below the age of reason or mentally handicapped, are almost certainly going to Hell, and that the idea of invincible ignorance is more or less there so Catholics won’t have to worry about pretty much all other Christians inevitably going to Hell.

I honestly hope these are not the teachings of the Church, but I have to say that in some cases, these posters make good points that this was indeed the Church’s teaching and that all attempts to gloss it over are just done because of the much despised “liberalization” of the Church after Vatican II. But this is not to say that I agree with them - I don’t want to be a Pelagian or a heretic, but if holding that it is not only possible but very likely that unbaptized infants and Protestants and perhaps even non-Chirstians who don’t understand Christianity but seek God with a sincere heart can be saved makes me a heretic, then I guess that’s what I am. I would like to stay in the Church, but at the same time I don’t want to be a hypocrite, so I don’t think I can remain in it if these are its teachings.

 

[Christy_Beth]

In some cases the discussion covers personal opinion. We aren’t perfect, so we sometimes see things differently, but that’s human nature. Read the bible and read the CCC. Find a spiritual director if possible. I’d say go to your priest, but if your church is like mine, he might not have time for long discussions on this. But it’s worth asking. And write to your Bishop too. Many times we discuss things here and it all gets out of whack. There are those who believe differently, but that doesn’t mean they are totally wrong. Anywhere you go you will find people who would argue something about Christianity.

Please don’t leave the Church. Study the scriptures, pray alot and get a spiritual director. These may help. But finding a good spiritual director may take awhile. I’ve started looking again and it’s goiong slow. Check with your priest and with the director of the RCIA program. They are bound to have some good ideas on that.

 

[Trishie]

Please read carefully to understand the Church’s true attitude, including to other Christian faiths, non-Christians, and how the Holy Spirit understands the earlier statements.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

And how is God not going to share His love and beauty with little children!

May God bless you, as you trust in His love and mercy.

 

[Kevin12]

Please read carefully to understand the Church’s true attitude, including to other Christian faiths, non-Christians, and how the Holy Spirit understands the earlier statements.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

And how is God not going to share His love and beauty with little children!

May God bless you, as you trust in His love and mercy.

The problem is, that there was at least one poster on a similar thread who said that these statements weren’t backed up with statements made ex cathedra, and the Council of Trent made statements that contradicted them. Then there’s the fact that Augustine believes unbaptized infants would go to Hell and suffer real pains, and even Aquainus said they would be denied the Beatific Vision.

Also, I am not very strongly considering leaving. If anything, I would be more likely to remain in the Church but feel I was a hyprocrite or a Cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing the doctrines that appealed to me.

 

[Wonderette]

Please don’t leave the Church because of a few posts you saw on these forums, meant to be a tool towards your eternal salvation. Everyone has a different opinion, and not all of them are correct. These posts are made my humans, who can make mistakes, and do. Being a Catholic is the greatest gift ever. Don’t miss the chance to see God when you are in Heaven.

 

[Kevin12]

Please don’t leave the Church because of a few posts you saw on these forums, meant to be a tool towards your eternal salvation. Everyone has a different opinion, and not all of them are correct. These posts are made my humans, who can make mistakes, and do. Being a Catholic is the greatest gift ever. Don’t miss the chance to see God when you are in Heaven.

I know this is right, and I want to speak to a priest about it. I was intending to do so after Holy Thursday mass yesterday, but there was an hour of adoration afterward and I had to get home.

 

[losh14]

The problem is, that there was at least one poster on a similar thread who said that these statements weren’t backed up with statements made ex cathedra, and the Council of Trent made statements that contradicted them.

Hi Kevin12, thank you for sharing what has to be a difficult topic to struggle with. It takes courage to do that, especially since (as you’ve noted) there are lurkers on these poor boards who are happy to send many and more to Hell without recourse to the Divine Mercy that gives us all hope (1 Pt. 1:3).

I would encourage you very strongly to take any statements that give you such grief and go to a reliable source - an RCIA direct, a priest, a theologian, a reputable professor of moral theology - and ask what is truly taught. Consider that these boards invite responses from the completely uninformed, the “I know just enough to be dangerous but not enough to be safe” crowd, as well as those with a bent towards misinformation. That said I have found many who espouse their faith sincerely and will back up adequately - not just citation but also explanation - their positions, and admit if they are wrong on a topic.

Consider this - is it worth leaving the Church over what someone else said that may or may not be correct? What if that person has the sole desire of chasing questioning and inquisitive Catholics like yourself out of the Church?

 

[odile53]

Hi Kevin12, thank you for sharing what has to be a difficult topic to struggle with. It takes courage to do that, especially since (as you’ve noted) there are lurkers on these poor boards who are happy to send many and more to Hell without recourse to the Divine Mercy that gives us all hope (1 Pt. 1:3).

I would encourage you very strongly to take any statements that give you such grief and go to a reliable source - an RCIA direct, a priest, a theologian, a reputable professor of moral theology - and ask what is truly taught. Consider that these boards invite responses from the completely uninformed, the “I know just enough to be dangerous but not enough to be safe” crowd, as well as those with a bent towards misinformation. That said I have found many who espouse their faith sincerely and will back up adequately - not just citation but also explanation - their positions, and admit if they are wrong on a topic.

Consider this - is it worth leaving the Church over what someone else said that may or may not be correct? What if that person has the sole desire of chasing questioning and inquisitive Catholics like yourself out of the Church?

Have to second this: There are some great and accurate posts here. There are some well-intentioned but very misinformed posts, and some posts where the writer’s bad intentions nearly jump off the screen.

Don’t leave your soul to the opinion of what you see on this, or any other, unofficial website. And discuss findings of official websites with a well-informed priest or consecrated religious brother.

 

[Trishie]

Please read the Catechism statements for yourself. Don’t depend upon others.

Trent was part of the journey, remember that Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead us to the fullness of truth, He did not say we already knew all that was to be known.
Jesus said, “I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit of truth comes He will lead you to the complete truth…He will glorify me, since all He tells you will be taken from what is mine. Everything the Father has is mine.” [John 16:12-13, 14-15]

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

"846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336"

You have to make your own choices of course, but Jesus makes plain in Matthew 25 verses 31-46 that His judgement of souls is based on love.

If you would be wise to avoid CAF and you wouldn’t be the first who has recognized that it is wiser to stay away, then you may seriously consider that. If this site does not help your faith and relationship with God and your deepening of spiritual growth, then it may in your case, as it is in some who have said as much to me, a place that in conscience you should avoid. We members aren’t saints and aren’t necessarily well-catechized. I myself don’t come here because I find the site uplifting or even inspiring, I only come because occasionally I manage to help someone a little so for me it is a responsibility, not a joy. I also pray for folk who come here. People come here scared, lonely, unhappy, confused, and a lot of kind people help as well as they can or understand, and by prayer.
I’m glad for the encouragement and good information that occurs here but I wouldn’t encourage anyone dear to me to come here. I would be worried about what uneasiness and doubts would be raised in their hearts and minds.There are truly informed, loving people here, that is true.

 

[maximus]

I have had a long struggle with my faith pretty much since I was in 9th grade. I was in many cases right on the verge of agnosticism. But recently, after looking at some of the Fatima miracles are reading various accounts about even skeptics who did see something there, I have come back to mostly believing.

However, I am also have a lot of problems, and I would have to say most of them have come from lurking various posts on CAF. .

Listen if posts trouble you; how do you handle the unceasing bombardment of the secular media against the church, Meeting good people who have quit Christianity. Etc…

For faithful Catholics things are likely to get worst before they get better. It is easy to get discouraged and if you are young it must be very hard. Following Christ has gotten much harder, keep the faith it will be worth it in the long hard run…

God Bless

 

[St_Francis]

Kevin,
The Church does not teach that anyone in particular is in Hell, nor has the Church ever forbidden prayers for the dead who were not visibly united with the Church in life.

Those ideas, like Limbo, which are proposed other than the existence of Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven, and the canonized Saints, are simply theological speculation. How God handles all these different situations, we do not know, but we do know that God is all-just and all-merciful, so we do know that whatever does happen will be the perfect thing to happen.

So pray for those who die, and leave the rest in God’s very capable Hands.

 

[JRKH]

The problem is, that there was at least one poster on a similar thread who said that these statements weren’t backed up with statements made ex cathedra, and the Council of Trent made statements that contradicted them. Then there’s the fact that Augustine believes unbaptized infants would go to Hell and suffer real pains, and even Aquainus said they would be denied the Beatific Vision.

Kevin,
As others have said…It is far better to rely on official church teaching than on what other posters might say here. The Catechism is the best place to start.
In regards to the poster you reference above…do you think that he, as an individual, has a greater insight to these matters than magisterium of the Church?
Surely the magisterium knows of the references he presents and just as surely we can recognize that the magisterium takes these things into account as they strive to understand and present the Truth of the Faith.

Also, I am not very strongly considering leaving. If anything, I would be more likely to remain in the Church but feel I was a hyprocrite or a Cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing the doctrines that appealed to me.

I can understand this. It is something that I struggled with too.
Consider this. As deep and full and rich as the Church is in her teachings, it is impossible for the vast majority of us to really come to understand the greater part of it in any depth. If we were to try, we would likely wind up ignoring the more important aspects of our walk in faith…and that would not be a good thing.
So - my solution is this. I believe in the Catholic Church…I believe in her authority to teach…Because I believe in this, I can accept each of her teachings without needing to research them and convince myself. This is especially true of things that do not effect my daily walk.
My Job is to Love God and to Love neighbor. That is quite enough to keep me busy.
If a particular teaching comes up and I determine to research it…I try to go to official church documents. That is what they are there for.
If I am still confused…I just leave it in God’s Hands and move on.
I reject nothing…therefore I am not a Cafeteria Catholic…Even if I haven’t “tasted” every item on the menu.

Make sense??

Peace
James

 

[godisgood77]

The problem is, that there was at least one poster on a similar thread who said that these statements weren’t backed up with statements made ex cathedra, and the Council of Trent made statements that contradicted them. Then there’s the fact that Augustine believes unbaptized infants would go to Hell and suffer real pains, and even Aquainus said they would be denied the Beatific Vision.

Also, I am not very strongly considering leaving. If anything, I would be more likely to remain in the Church but feel I was a hyprocrite or a Cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing the doctrines that appealed to me.

The beauty of the Catholic faith is that it is a living faith. You are right that current positions do not match some past Church positions. This is a good thing and it shows that as time passes the Church comes to a fuller, deeper and truer understanding of things. This has been the case throughout all of Church history.

I recommend finding some time to read a book called “History of the Catholic Church: From the Apostolic Age to the Third Millennium” by James Hitchcock. I had and have some of the struggles that you do. This reading and studying of history really helped me understand how the Church has grown over time to present a fuller deposit of faith.

The good thing is that the Church does not "have “God”, but instead brings the meant to illuminate the gospel of JC in the world… The Church is the People of God… you are one of those people… remember that it’s better to light one candle, then to curse the darkness. Stay in the Church, receive the sacraments and do what good you can with the talents that you have. Do not despair…

 

[thomasf]

Despite what anyone writes on these boards, we have no idea who has and has not gone to hell and for what reasons. Whereas the church has definitively taught that some people are indeed in heaven through the canonization of saints, we have no idea who for sure will be going to hell. That decision is up to God. Jesus gave us the catholic church to help get us to heaven, including the sacraments, but God is certainly able to judge how He wants.

I find it best not to worry about who is and isn’t going to hell, and what religion or age they are, etc. Just worry about getting yourself into heaven and let God decide the rest for everyone else. And pray for those around you.

The opinions of folks on this board is no reason to give up on the faith. If this place is a problem for you and your faith, then give it a break. Not the church.

 

[Kevin12]

Listen if posts trouble you; how do you handle the unceasing bombardment of the secular media against the church, Meeting good people who have quit Christianity. Etc…

For faithful Catholics things are likely to get worst before they get better. It is easy to get discouraged and if you are young it must be very hard. Following Christ has gotten much harder, keep the faith it will be worth it in the long hard run…

God Bless

This is another sort of attitude that makes me feel uncomfortable. The secular media may have some people with a malicious attitude, but I was a journalism student once, and my belief is that many people in the media, if not most, have a sincere desire to promote the public good, and even if they are misguided, are pursuing what they believe is right.

I also am very troubled by people who seem to think we live in times that are especially sinful or licenious, or that “the old days” were a golden time. They were not. If you look at the conditions of the poor and the destitute in the middle ages and the Rennaisance, I would have to say we are doing quite a bit better now. Then there is also the matter of slavery, and the idea of keeping serfs and peasants as the de facto property of the rich and powerful. Also, anyone who thinks the world is particularly licenious today ought to read about the Borgia Popes such as Alexander VI.

 

[Kevin12]

Kevin,

I can understand this. It is something that I struggled with too.
Consider this. As deep and full and rich as the Church is in her teachings, it is impossible for the vast majority of us to really come to understand the greater part of it in any depth. If we were to try, we would likely wind up ignoring the more important aspects of our walk in faith…and that would not be a good thing.
So - my solution is this. I believe in the Catholic Church…I believe in her authority to

The problem is, that I don’t know if I can say I believe in the Church if I don’t understand some of its doctrines.

 

[Trishie]

Complaining about the current generations is nothing new. 'We are told that the Greek philosopher Plato complained. “What is happening to our young
people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They
ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions.
Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?”

Hesiod, 8th century BC is quoted saying
“I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint” (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

Why take notice of what is a tendency of the ages, amongst non-religious persons as well? Are you generally allowing negatives to overwhelm you, do you think?
Would it help to lessen stress if you were to ignore others’ complaints and recognize and be happy over things in your own everyday life, someone’s courtesy, a pleasant day, and so on, rather than allow negatives to drown your hope and diminish your faith?
Do you need not to absorb others’ negatives, but to find the light in things yourself? With both God’s grace and your own effort?

Yes there is good and not so good in every generation, in every historical period…it’s just that many people only can see what is bad amid the good in our own time. We can’t really blame people for this as they have only their perceived experience. And there are a lot of difficult things occurring that they personally have to live through, and worry about.

Please don’t be like a sponge drinking it all in, but find the joys and hopes in your everyday life. But also being the person who puts light and hope in others’ lives by little courtesies and kindnesses?

 

[JRKH]

The problem is, that I don’t know if I can say I believe in the Church if I don’t understand some of its doctrines.

Fair enough. Then the place to begin is here, with the authority of the Church to teach.

The viewpoint that you express above is one that is embraced by the protestant community at large…If I don’t agree with what this community teaches…I go to another one. Obviously that is not what you are seeking to do or you would not be here on CAF.

So - what is needed is to get a good grip on “Church authority” and the rest will come more easily.
I Haven’t much time right now…but I will give you some bible texts that point to both visible authority and unity. These are foundational to the idea that we need to look to the Church and submit to her

Mt 16:17-19 and Mt 18:15-18 are the only places where "Church’ is used in the Gospels and in both cases the authority to bind and loose whatever is granted. In Mt 18:17 we are told to “tell it to the Church” and to listen to “The Church”. Look at Acts 15 and you will see an example of Mt 18:15-18 in action. The problem that arose in Antioch required that “The Church” resolve the matter - and certainly there were those who saw their position overruled…but they accepted that in humility. In other words, they listened to “The Church”.
1 Timothy 3:15 says it is the Church (not the individual) that is the pillar and ground of Truth Eph 3:10 says that it is through the Church that the wisdom of God is disseminated.

There are multiple calls for unity in the NT…many of which can be seen as applying to the need for doctrinal unity…
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.
So it can be seen that the common theme in Scripture is that we conform to the Authoritative Church rather than making the Church conform to us.

Once you get your head around this idea of the Church exercising legitimate authority in these matters, it is much easier to relax and accept, and leave it in God’s hands.

Peace
James

 

[Trishie]

The problem is, that I don’t know if I can say I believe in the Church if I don’t understand some of its doctrines.

Then do you think that perhaps you need to deal with them one by one, but not rejecting the Church without knowing much of what the Catholic faith is really about…for instance, how much do you know that you can find in this index? It’s not something you can know or read all at once, but little by little.

At the base of my signature there is a link…however hopefully you do want to try, not give up. May God help and guide you

Also, in subject form, vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/index/a.htm

You may find sites like this easier for now
americancatholic.org/newsletters/cu/ac1086.asp

There are more helpful sites, but it’s after midnight here. Anyway, I’ll just pray for you and leave things to God.

 

[CradleJourney]

The problem is, that I don’t know if I can say I believe in the Church if I don’t understand some of its doctrines.

I have had similar struggles, and I can understand your views. (Born Catholic, left, returned).

Skipping all the details, for me, the deciding factor was that God told me to return to the Catholic Church. (Radical, yeah, but it happened).

So I still struggle with this and that and some posts here have upset me greatly. But, for me, the point is to stay where God wants me, and for me to work to become better at understanding.

So my advice - stay and pray. Do your best to listen to God, and what He is saying to your heart.

I’ll be praying for you!