Considering The Problem of Evil: Continued

[Poustinia]

I am not a philosopher or a theologian, and I feel myself woefully unqualified to be on this forum discussing the topic of the “Evidential Problem of Evil”. However I am inspired to discuss my ideas and am aspiring to become at least equipped to enter into the discussion.

At the outset of this thread I wish to thank Stephen Law for his very clear statement of “The Problem of Evil” on the podcast Philosophy Bites (because I forgot to do so in my previous thread). This is the starting point for my deliberations on the subject.

In my previous thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=485919 I dealt with the “Logical Problem of Evil” and the implications of freewill. I put forward the propositions:

1. 
   *]That demons were responsible for any evil that was present in the Garden of Eden before the fall of man.
   *]Due to man’s fall from grace, creation was also subject to decay and death. Cf. Rom 8:19-23. vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYW.HTM
   
   In the course of posting on that thread, I found that the problem of evil was much larger that I initially understood it to be. I had thought that by solving the logical problem of evil that all the other inconsistencies would disappear because of their glaringly obvious incompatibility with the truth that I had uncovered. I was wrong. It was then that I found out that the Church authoritatively teaches that physical evil is a good/perfection that existed in the Garden of Eden before the fall of man and created by God to be that way. Cf. CCC #310. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P19.HTM
   
   At that time I challenged theologians to re-examine what God had created (“a world in a state of journeying”) and man’s relationship with that creation.
   
   Since then I heard a theologian briefly outline the Church’s position on the “Evidential Problem of Evil” by stating the idea that certain goods presuppose evils, and he illustrated his point by using the example of the good of a lion’s life being preserved by the evil of the death of its prey.
   
   At this point I need to address the errors in the statements that I’ve found.
   
   God is Pure Actuality or Being itself. From that it follows that he cannot create any form of evil. Creation is good, its perfections are limited but not evil.
   
   A and not A = a contradiction
   
   A God himself witnessed that what he created was good, Gen 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25 and also in verse 31 it is “very good”. vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P3.HTM
   
   Not A Evil is the lack of perfection that should be present in a person, action, or thing as a part of its reality.
   
   It is a logical contradiction then to say that creation (before the fall of man) is good, but that some goods presuppose evils, for that would also mean that God was not entirely good.
   
   Law’s “evil-god challenge” simply points out this contradiction and illustrates it to the point of absurdity!
   
   I have noticed a certain pattern in theology but I haven’t seen it defined anywhere, so I am stating it here in my own words: The way the Garden of Eden was before the fall of man is the pattern for the way the world is to be after the Redemption of man.
   
   Applying this principle will straighten out the error that certain goods presuppose evils in the Garden of Eden before the fall of man (using the example of that the good of a lion’s life is preserved by the evil of the death of its prey).
   
   The eleventh chapter of Isaiah speaks of the Redemption to be accomplished by the Messiah. It says, “…the lion shall eat straw like an ox.” Cf. Isaiah 11:7. vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PNU.HTM Now if Eden is the pattern for the world after the Redemption, then it is reasonable to say that the world after the Redemption can also be a pattern of the Garden of Eden. From this evidence it follows that lions (and all carnivores) were herbivores in in Eden.
   
   IS THERE ANY OTHER EVIDENCE THAT PROVES THAT EVIL COMES FROM GOD AND NOT FROM THE FALL OF MAN AND ANGEL?
   
   In honour of the Dedication of the Basilicas of the Apostles Peter and Paul in Rome.
   
   Poustinia

 

[tonyrey]

Poustinia:

That demons were responsible for any evil that was present in the Garden of Eden before the fall of man.

We have to assume that you mean moral evil…

Due to man’s fall from grace, creation was also subject to decay and death. Cf. Rom 8:19-23. vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYW.HTM

The notion of an earthly paradise is difficult to reconcile with the element of chance in any physical world which inevitably leads to accidents and disasters. But decay and death have certainly been substantially increased by the selfishness and folly of mankind.

Since then I heard a theologian briefly outline the Church’s position on the “Evidential Problem of Evil” by stating the idea that certain goods presuppose evils, and he illustrated his point by using the example of the good of a lion’s life being preserved by the evil of the death of its prey.

A mercifully swift death caused by a predator is a far lesser evil than a lingering, painful death caused by infirmity or disease.

Not A Evil is the lack of perfection that should be present in a person, action, or thing as a part of its reality.

Imperfection is an inevitable consequence of living in a finite world with a finite intelligence.

It is a logical contradiction then to say that creation (before the fall of man) is good, but that some goods presuppose evils, for that would also mean that God was not entirely good.

God permits evils because it would be a greater evil not to create a world with evils because those evils are far outweighed by the immense value of life.

IS THERE ANY OTHER EVIDENCE THAT PROVES THAT EVIL COMES FROM GOD AND NOT FROM THE FALL OF MAN AND ANGEL?

God is** ultimately** responsible for all evil because He created everything!

 

[jpjd]

What on earth are you talking about. Evil does not come from God.

God is love itself. He not only loves, he IS love. Evil comes from a perversion of or a lack of love. It is a turning away from God.

Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel with faulty logic and theology, your time would be better spent reading books by philosophers and theologians who can explain this to you.

 

[tonyrey]

God permits evils because it would be a greater evil not to create a world with evils because those evils are far outweighed by the immense value of life.

God is** ultimately** responsible for all evil because He created everything!

To demand a world without evil is to expect to have everything for nothing…

 

[Poustinia]

To demand a world without evil is to expect to have everything for nothing…

Dear tonyrey,

Your theology and style seems to be very influenced by Islam. Let me explain.

You hold that God is not entirely good and that he is responsible for the evil in the world. You seem to hold that God children must earn His grace, and that He isn’t a Father who provides all things for His children out of His sheer gratuitous love. You are just repeating what we have already covered in the previous thread a few months ago.

• You claim to be Catholic, yet you argue for Islamic ideals.
• Addicts and dysfunctional families use bombast to deceive, rationalize or shift blame. Polygamy, divorce, rape, paedophilia, masturbation, and sodomy are manifestations of sexual addiction, which characterizes Mohammad’s sexual behaviour. It is no wonder that these acts and accompanying behaviours are so widely accepted in what could be considered as Mohammad’s spiritual family.
• Before the fall of man creation was perfect. It’s perfections were limited by the very nature of being finite and created. This does not mean that they were necessarily imperfect (or evil) as Islam holds.
• Your picture of God is not one of a loving Father who provides for His children, but rather one whose favour you must earn. This is indicative of Ishmael who was born of a slave, and whose relationship with Abraham was one of obedient submission to his master’s dictates. Contrast this with Isaac who was subject to his father’s loving instruction and careful guidance - as a son. Cf. Galatians 4 especially verses 6-7, 24-25, 28-29. vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P104.HTM
• You maintain that God is the source of evil in contradiction to the very definition of God as all good. If God is all good, then his goodness is necessarily consistent and unchanging. This would then conflict with the Islamic view of Allah that ‘Allah wills all that happens’. This means that Allah actively wills good and evil, and is therefore capricious!

Though he was in the form of God,
Jesus did not deem equality with God
something to be grasped at.

Rather, he emptied himself
and took on the form of a slave,
being born in the likeness of men.

He was known to be of human estate,
and it was thus that he humbled himself,
obediently accepting even death,
death on a cross!

Because of this,
God highly exalted him
and bestowed on him the name
above every other name,

So that a Jesus’ name
every knee must bend,
in the heavens, on the earth,
and under the earth,
and every tongue proclaim
to the glory of God the Father:
JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!

Philippians 2:6-11 vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10G.HTM

[SIGN]In honour of Christ the King[/SIGN]
:knight1oustinia

 

[tonyrey]

You hold that God is not entirely good and that he is responsible for the evil in the world.

God is perfectly good and infinitely loving. He is** ultimately** responsible for everything because He created everything. Evil wouldn’t exist if He hadn’t created anything. He is not directly responsible for evil but permits it because it would be a greater evil not to create beings to enjoy life. Would you refrain from bringing children into the world because you know they will be exposed to evil and suffering? You are ultimately responsible for evil in their lives if you procreate them!

You seem to hold that God children must earn His grace, and that He isn’t a Father who provides all things for His children out of His sheer gratuitous love.

God does provide everything because without Him we would be** nothing.** But if we do nothing it is unreasonable to expect positive results. “Nothing will come from nothing…”

Your picture of God is not one of a loving Father who provides for His children, but rather one whose favour you must earn.

Do you think we have no obligations whatsoever? “If you love me keep my commandments…” “Forgive us we forgive those…”

• You claim to be Catholic, yet you argue for Islamic ideals.
  • Addicts and dysfunctional families use bombast to deceive, rationalize or shift blame. Polygamy, divorce, rape, paedophilia, masturbation, and sodomy are manifestations of sexual addiction, which characterizes Mohammad’s sexual behaviour. It is no wonder that these acts and accompanying behaviours are so widely accepted in what could be considered as Mohammad’s spiritual family.

An attack on Islam is uncalled for and irrelevant to the topic.

 

[PAboy57]

Is it to simple to understand God created everything good. lucifer developed pride and wanted to be God so he rebelled. 1/3 of the angels followed lucifer. the great battled ensued and they were thrown to earth as punishment. God always intended his creatures to have free will. So lucifer was permitted to do his evil persuaision even in the garden of eden. at this time lucifer was basically in his infancy of evil but still persuasive. he snagged adam and eve and the story goes on from there.

God created everything good but allowed free will to make choices. that happens in our lives everyday. God also knew we would mess things up but gave us a chance. Even God’s Word, Jesus had an option to save us or not. He chose to save us. In the end things won’t be so easy and death will come to all evil. We have been warned. The choice is up to us.

 

[fhansen]

If it’s impossible for even God to create another god then anything He creates, while good, is unavoidably less good than Him-in the relative sense. This poses no problem until free will is thrown into the mix because only then can this less-than-perfect-goodness find expression. In that case the question is whether or not God’s determination to give sentient beings free will was a good/wise/loving one.