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tonyrey
Guest
It is possible but so many persons exist that the possibility that no one will choose evil is not worth considering…
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mcteague
Guest
It is not the problem of evil that we should be considering The problem is perfection. Coming from it and returning to it. It is not a semantic distinction. The influence of Plato on our conception of God is quite significant. Much Christian philosophy has it root in addressing fundemental paradoxes inherent in that premise. Original sin, for example, is not intended to explain evil. It’s intent is to defend the proposition of a perfect God.
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Walter_Maxey
Guest
Isn’t Original Sin intended to explain evin given the existence of a perfect (all-good and all-powerful) God? Or, perhaps you would say it this way: Original Sin is intended to explain the existence of a perfect God given the existence of evil in the world.
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mcteague
Guest
That is exactly how I would put. You have to realize that Augustine’s interest is God not evil. If something is pure, how can something impure come of it.
When we return to heaven, we will commune with God. We need the power of grace to enter because we must also be pure. If we were not, we would contaminate God. Although we require God’s grace for salvation, we have some obligation to seek purity or perfection of our souls while on earth. This is why the Church has what I would call fanatical views on sex and other things.
It is forced to by the conception of a perfect God.
That conception coupled with a notion of essences, ie. what a thing is, known mostly from M.A’s meditations, but probably derived from Aristotle, put the Church into a very difficult situation. It is forced to take absolutist position to maintain consistency with its underlying philosophical thesis.
When we return to heaven, we will commune with God. We need the power of grace to enter because we must also be pure. If we were not, we would contaminate God. Although we require God’s grace for salvation, we have some obligation to seek purity or perfection of our souls while on earth. This is why the Church has what I would call fanatical views on sex and other things.
It is forced to by the conception of a perfect God.
That conception coupled with a notion of essences, ie. what a thing is, known mostly from M.A’s meditations, but probably derived from Aristotle, put the Church into a very difficult situation. It is forced to take absolutist position to maintain consistency with its underlying philosophical thesis.
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TEPO
Guest
Or could the purpose of original sin be to assure that the issue of Adam and Eve, or even Lucifer would never happen again… Particularly in Heaven.
What I mean is, maybe evil exists in order to force us to choose good even after experiencing the sparkling blissfulness of evil/sin. Since no man can ever esape sin, God then judges us on our desire reach goodness.
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TEPO
Guest
Or could the purpose of original sin be to assure that the issue of Adam and Eve, or even Lucifer would never happen again… Particularly in Heaven.
What I mean is, maybe evil exists in order to force us to choose good even after experiencing the sparkling blissfulness of evil/sin. Since no man can ever esape sin, God then judges us on our desire to reach goodness.
Maybe God sees our intentions aside from our abilities.
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TEPO
Guest
- Evil does not exist on its own, but is generated only by beings who have the ability to think on their own… No creature or substance in itself can be or create evil, only thought can create evil. Therefore God is not to blame for evil, since He does not control thought.
- Because of our ability to think, there is evil. God allowed it when He created Adam and Eve knowing that they would make evil, but It would have been evil on HIS part not to create them since He already came up with the idea of creating them… Since God can do no evil, He had to follow throuth with plan A. But If He had never thought to create man in the first place, then there would never have been an issue… He had to choose the good choice, which was life… Probably…
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una_ecclesia
Guest
I have a question for you. Can a person do good without free will?
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Poustinia
Guest
Yes, free will is an intrinsic good. Your question derives from an impoverished definition of free will. Most people think that the freedom to choose whatever they want is free will. The Catholic teaching of free will is the freedom to choose the good. To choose something less than the good (an evil) constitutes an abuse of the faculty of free will. Thus, by the choice of Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels to not serve God and Adam and Eve to be disobedient, evil entered into creation.
Poustinia
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4Horsemen
Guest
As finite humans, we could never comprehend that evil exists except through the Light of Divine Revelation. We are like the people in Plato’s cave born into the darkness of sin yet oblivious of the light outside until we seek for it. That is, we must seek for the perfection that is God, true Light, revealed in Jesus Christ. What makes us finally turn from darkness to Light is the invariable acceptance of our deplorable condition. The choice for “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” has led us astray–apart from the goodness of God in His essence.
That there is evil in the world is due to our rebelliousness. We tend to use the gift of free will to choose what is detrimental to our own welfare, because we see our choices as a good—at least partially. The “world, the flesh, and the devil” present evil packaged for the soothing massage of the senses. Where good is apparent, evil cannot find entrance into our hearts and minds. However, the devil tries to influence our free will to see things his way. Of course, his purpose is to win souls away from God. It’s the only choice he has if he has any free will at all.
That there is evil in the world is due to our rebelliousness. We tend to use the gift of free will to choose what is detrimental to our own welfare, because we see our choices as a good—at least partially. The “world, the flesh, and the devil” present evil packaged for the soothing massage of the senses. Where good is apparent, evil cannot find entrance into our hearts and minds. However, the devil tries to influence our free will to see things his way. Of course, his purpose is to win souls away from God. It’s the only choice he has if he has any free will at all.
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Poustinia
Guest
I just want to sum up my position in a few short words on the logical question of evil. The logical question of evil is “If God is all good then how can evil exist at all.”
Evil entered creation due to the free will choice of the angels who chose not to serve God. They could’ve caused the asteroid to land on the earth, thereby wiping out most of the life on the planet and killing the dinosaurs. Dr. Peter Kreeft in his book Angels (and Demons) in answer to question #87 says, “Occasionally they (demons) can even move matter supernaturally. This is even rarer than angelic supernatural intervention, but it happens.” pg. 114
There was evil in creation before the fall of man. Dr. Scott Hahn talks briefly about this in the series “Our Father’s Plan”. You can download it from EWTN audio library, the second episode. ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/file_index.asp?SeriesId=-306548622&pgnu=
When mankind fell from the grace of God, there were repercussions for all of creation. CCC #400 “…Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”…” vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM
Free will is an intrinsic good. Free will is the freedom to choose the good. To choose a lesser good (evil) is an abuse of the faculty of free will.
CCC# 311 “…God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it…” vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P19.HTM
Thank you all for posting your comments, they have been very helpful to me in considering the issues.
I will turn my attention to consider the evidential problem of evil which states that if God is all good then how come there is so much evil in the world.
Poustinia
Evil entered creation due to the free will choice of the angels who chose not to serve God. They could’ve caused the asteroid to land on the earth, thereby wiping out most of the life on the planet and killing the dinosaurs. Dr. Peter Kreeft in his book Angels (and Demons) in answer to question #87 says, “Occasionally they (demons) can even move matter supernaturally. This is even rarer than angelic supernatural intervention, but it happens.” pg. 114
There was evil in creation before the fall of man. Dr. Scott Hahn talks briefly about this in the series “Our Father’s Plan”. You can download it from EWTN audio library, the second episode. ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/file_index.asp?SeriesId=-306548622&pgnu=
When mankind fell from the grace of God, there were repercussions for all of creation. CCC #400 “…Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”…” vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM
Free will is an intrinsic good. Free will is the freedom to choose the good. To choose a lesser good (evil) is an abuse of the faculty of free will.
CCC# 311 “…God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it…” vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P19.HTM
Thank you all for posting your comments, they have been very helpful to me in considering the issues.
I will turn my attention to consider the evidential problem of evil which states that if God is all good then how come there is so much evil in the world.
Poustinia
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tonyrey
Guest
God permits evil because it is an inevitable consequence of free will. It is impossible for us to know to what extent He will permit evil but His infinite goodness ensures that it is outweighed by the love and joy in heaven and on earth. Evil contains the seeds of its own destruction.
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Poustinia
Guest
This statement is incorrect. It has already been mentioned in previous posts (#17-21) that it is possible to have free will and never choose evil. The Blessed Virgin Mary had free will and never chose evil, Jesus although he was God he was also man and had free will and never chose evil, and there are the 2/3 of the angels that have free will and chose to serve God. Evil is not an inevitable consequence of free will.
Yup! :yup:
Poustinia
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Poustinia
Guest
CCC# 311 “… He permits it (evil), however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it…” vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P19.HTM
Poustinia
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tonyrey
Guest
Evil is an inevitable consequence of free will because out of the billions of persons who have existed, exist now and will exist it is inconceivable that not one of them would choose evil…
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Poustinia
Guest
I thought that I’d list the consequences of original sin, consider its effects on humans in history up until the coming of Jesus, tackle some common objections, and then I’d consider how grace has changed the situation. This is a very ambitious project and will probably take more than one post and some time as I consider and write, and it will not be exhaustive.
CONSIDERING WHY THERE IS SO MUCH EVIL IN THE WORLD - Consequences of Original Sin
Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command.
By his sin man lost the preternatural gifts:
he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end (1.God), and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign (2.)within himself as well as (3.)between himself and other men and (4.)all creatures.
Hopefully this description paints an adequate picture of paradise and the disaster that sin caused. My major source of information on this is a section of the Catechism # 385-421. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM Much is a direct quote only rearranged to illustrate my point.
The stories of creation in the Bible :bible1: show you what happened, rather than tell you explicitly what happened. The author expected that his readers could interpret the story and understand his points. But with so much time passed since it was written, we have lost the ability to understand this style of writing and we need an interpreter.
Poustinia
CONSIDERING WHY THERE IS SO MUCH EVIL IN THE WORLD - Consequences of Original Sin
Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command.
By his sin man lost the preternatural gifts:
- Impassibility: couldn’t suffer
- Immortality: never die
- Integrity: intellect informs the will (concupiscence: will and intellect are not in harmony).
Human nature has not been totally corrupted :extrahappy: : it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence.
he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end (1.God), and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign (2.)within himself as well as (3.)between himself and other men and (4.)all creatures.- They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.
- The control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered.
- The union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.
- Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.
Death makes its entrance into human history.
Hopefully this description paints an adequate picture of paradise and the disaster that sin caused. My major source of information on this is a section of the Catechism # 385-421. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM Much is a direct quote only rearranged to illustrate my point.
The stories of creation in the Bible :bible1: show you what happened, rather than tell you explicitly what happened. The author expected that his readers could interpret the story and understand his points. But with so much time passed since it was written, we have lost the ability to understand this style of writing and we need an interpreter.
Poustinia
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Poustinia
Guest
Dear tonyrey,Evil is an inevitable consequence of free will because out of the billions of persons who have existed, exist now and will exist it is inconceivable that not one of them would choose evil…
Your statement was repeated with such certainty that it caused me to really consider deeply the possibility of its truth.
“Evil is an inevitable consequence of free will…” This statement seems to be irreconcilable with the concept of an all good God who can not create evil.
“ out of the billions of persons who have existed, exist now and will exist it is inconceivable that not one of them would choose evil…” It was hard for me to deny this evidence, that there is the probability that evil will arise out of free will.
In my first consideration of your statement, I concluded that the statement was placed out of context. The thread was about the source of evil and an all good God could never be the source of evil. I felt that the evidence of human free will causing evil was only appropriate after the discussion on the fall. The statement seemed out of place as I was considering the spiritual aspect of the cause of evil being the angels’ free will. It seemed to me that I was coming from a spiritual perspective and that you were coming from a material perspective. This for me was evidence despair in God’s goodness and of spiritual blindness due to impurity of the body.
After I had prayed I felt inspired with a resolve to confront this problem and request that you go to confession before posting on this thread again, and to please make sure that you are in the state of grace when posting on this thread in the future.
Yet, I was inspired also to consider how I’d word my post. I wanted to talk about how creation hadn’t reached perfection and then… I stumbled upon a glaring conflict:
“…God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.” CCC 310. I’m sure you are familiar with this teaching, because your statement seems to presuppose it.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that God created physical evil and even death!!!
This is in conflict with the revealed truth that God is all good and can not create something less than the good.This means that the spiritual blindness in your statement doesn’t originate with you. It originates with the theologians who engineered this innovation that God created evil!
The fact that this inconsistency has been promoted unhindered as a truth that must be believed as a matter of faith is a scandal of enormous proportions. It means that those who hold and teach the Catholic faith are responsible for this spiritual distortion and for the acts which rendered them blind to it.
It is not surprising to me that there is a problem with atheism if this is the fodder which is fed to them.
“…Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.” CCC 2125. :tsktsk:
For me this inconsistency is only another among others which I have encountered in the teachings of the Church. It doesn’t constitute a crisis of faith for me. It only indicates a crisis in theology and the moral conduct of believers.
I stand by my original post as a solution to the problem of evil which suggests that: the free will choice of Satan and 1/3 of the angels not to serve God is the source of any physical evil before the fall of man because demons can move matter supernaturally. And not because God created physical evil!
Catholic theology would do well to analyze just what “a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection” actually means, before it declares that God is the source of evil!
My explanation of the cause of evil in the world is only an explicit statement of truths which have been implicitly believed in the Church’s Tradition, not an innovation contrary to faith. And so I launch these ideas and rebuke into the electronic ether of the internet through the vehicle of CAF under an alias. Thy kingdom come!
I will prayerfully consider whether I will or won’t continue to post on this thread.
Thank-you to all who have posted here, your comments have been very helpful for me to consider these ideas.
:thankyou:
Poustinia
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tonyrey
Guest
Dear Poustinia,
It is not irreconcilable because God does not create our choices. He has given us the power to make them and He is not responsible for what we choose to do…
“ out of the billions of persons who have existed, exist now and will exist it is inconceivable that not one of them would choose evil…” It was hard for me to deny this evidence, that there is the probability that evil will arise out of free will.
The fall would not have occurred unless free will already existed. Otherwise God would be responsible for creating persons who were destined to fall - and therefore directly responsible for evil.
You attribute the cause of all evil to the angels’ free will but it is no less spiritual to attribute it to human free will. In both cases it is a gift from God.
Nothing could be further from the truth:
- I don’t regard the body as impure because like everything else it is a gift from God.
- It is impossible to despair in God’s goodness if you believe, as I do, that His infinite love for us was revealed beyond all doubt by the Passion and Death of Jesus on the Cross.
- Spiritual blindness has nothing to do with impurity of the body but stems from pride and selfishness.
I appreciate your concern but I do not believe you are entitled to decide whether another person is in a state of grace.
There is a vast difference between moral evil - for which persons are responsible - and physical evil - which has physical causes. Since God is perfect in every respect His creatures are necessarily imperfect in some respects. That is not their fault but the result of their limitations.The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that God created physical evil and even death!!!
I think you are mistaken in your view that they are spiritually blind. We tend to regard pain and death as evil but pain is a defense mechanism and death is the natural end of life in this world.
You are entitled to your opinion but I believe you are mistaken.The fact that this inconsistency has been promoted unhindered as a truth that must be believed as a matter of faith is a scandal of enormous proportions. It means that those who hold and teach the Catholic faith are responsible for this spiritual distortion and for the acts which rendered them blind to it.
It is not surprising to me that there is a problem with atheism if this is the fodder which is fed to them.
I agree that the moral conduct of believers is a stumbling block but not that the basic teachings of the Church are inconsistent. If they were they would not have survived for two thousand years.
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Poustinia
Guest
I wish to thank-you :thankyou: tonyrey for responding to my post.
Poustinia
You misunderstand the term “impurity of body”. It means sexual sins like adultery, fornication, masturbation, etc.
Sexual sins are manifestations of pride and selfishness and thus spiritual blindness is a result of sexual sins.
I didn’t decide. I simply am able to perceive the evidence.
This is the heart of our dispute.
- Your position is that physical evil has its source in physical existence. This is supported by the Catechism of the Catholic Church #310. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P19.HTM
- My position is that physical evil is a result of the fall of the angel and of man. It is consistent with Catholic teaching, with the exception of what is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church #310.
My point is that the teaching that God created physical evil is an innovation and not a teaching that has survived 2000 years.
Poustinia
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tonyrey
Guest
I am reduced to silence!
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