Consistency between OT and NT--a question

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My husband wants a persuasive answer to the following question: If the Old Testament is the inspired Word of God, the same God who authored the New Testament, then how can that good God have allowed or even ordered such evils as slavery and the slaughter of races of people (referring to those peoples in the Promised Land to be conquered by the Israelites after 40 years in the desert), etc.? I know the answer at least partly lies in that we must interpret the Old Covenant in light of the New and through Christ, but I don’t know how to answer the specific question.

I do know where the question comes from, however. He is looking for logical consistency. He was raised Catholic, left the Church early in our relationship (I converted to Catholicism later), and is now not a Christian, but rather an agnostic leaning toward materialist. Lately he has been trying to figure out how so many smart people that he knows–including me–can believe everything the Catholic Church teaches, among them that the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God and that God is All Good.

Thanks for any light you can shed on this topic. References to books to read or Catholic Answers tracts, good websites, etc. are most welcome.
 
Catholics believe a trusted teacher or messenger telling them what the truth is. This is the source of the understanding of apostolic succession from Jesus and his apostles.

Protestants believe their reasoning and thought about doctrines and scriptural passages. It is a personal or shared opinion about what truth is. Nicodemus was like a Protestant when Jesus said to him, “Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony. If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?”

Atheists have a personal or shared opinion about what truth is not; specifically, truth is not anything having to do with any God. Nicodemus came to Jesus like a Protestant, whereas an atheist would not have come to Jesus but instead would try to convince his disciples to leave Jesus.

It is only in trusting an authorized person that you have the truth that was sent by the authorizer.

Otherwise you have an opinion by someone who has no authority, either your own opinion or a shared opinion.

John Martin
 
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Hello,

Your husband is asking very reasonable questions. Richard Dawkins, probably the most popular atheist, refers to the God of the old testament as a “moral monster”. And for any atheist or critic of Christianity this is a common issue to bring into the light, which I agree should be talked about.

Paul Copan, in his book “Is God a Moral Monster? : Making sense of the Old testament God” answers each point very clearly. He dedicates three chapters on the slavery point and three chapters on the slaughter of the Canaanites. I highly recommend the book for your husband if he truly wants the answers. If not him then I think you should read it and deliver it in bite size pieces so-to-speak. But then again I can summarize it for you here if you don’t want the whole book.
 
Hi John,

When dealing with those of different views I wouldn’t recommend using an argument from authority. The person your discussing with may not acknowledge the same authority so it really comes down to debating points and seeing if they stand to reason.
 
Everything God does is done with love in mind. He made a Covenant with Abraham, promising that his descendants would be great, and that He would be with them. God desired for His people to become a great nation, but there were people who stood in the way of that- at first, the Egyptians who enslaved them and who ordered the killing of every newborn Jewish boy at one point (Exodus 1).

The interactions between Moses and the Pharaoh show that the Egyptians were not open to accepting God, not even open to allowing the Israelites to worship Him as He desired. Moses came to Pharaoh multiple times, performing great signs- but the Egyptians rejected him, just as Jesus Himself was often rejected during His ministry. They had magicians who could perform some similar feats, so they felt there was no reason for them to believe their slaves over their own religious and political leaders.

The plagues which God sent to warn them became increasingly serious, so much so that their magicians eventually could not replicate them. The Pharaoh would initially relent and grant permission for the Israelites to leave, but always turned back on his promises. Finally God allowed the angel of death to slay the first born son of every Egyptian, replicating the decree of the Pharaoh in Exodus 1. This time, Pharaoh allowed them to leave, only to change his mind after a few days and chase after them. Despite the signs which he was shown- which at one point his magicians could no longer imitate- and in spite of the great death caused by the last plague, he never relented.

The account of the Exodus should show us that God often gives people instruction of what they should do, and warns that there are grave consequences for actively rebelling. The very thing which God sought for the Israelites was freedom for His people, and Pharaoh refused to grant it. He was guilty of the things which your husband is concerned about- slavery and murder (at least attempted murder).

What can this show us? It can show us that God cares intensely for His people, and He will do whatever it takes (in a manner of speaking) to ensure that He keeps the promises He makes with His people.
 
Look up Trent horn’s book Hard sayings.

Check out his previous shows on Catholic answers about the book.
 
There are a lot of resources mentioned here in precious comments. I think the comprehensive answer must include that God is first a God of mercy, from the beginning offering Adam and Eve the opportunity to eternal life.

The threat from God was, if they ate of the forbidden tree they would surely die. So, this threat hangs there throughout scripture. I suspect that if you researched the origins of the people in Canaan, you would find that they rejected God or turned away from God., with the consequences that God had threatened.

The Israelites did not come from Egypt into vacant land, but they were instructed to destroy those kingdoms who worshiped other gods, etc. Of course, everybody dies, but God chooses the time and the place. I’d entertain a more logical reason, but from what I read the people are slaughtered to rid the land of idolaters. This is punishment for them and an object lesson for the Israelites, who learn that God is serious.

Does that divine justice make God “bad”? The impression may be so, but the Bible is telling us that it is not so.

There are several levels of this discussion. On a more abstract level, God is demonstrating the consequences of sin – for the Israelites and for us. Part of the problem is that the Bible might be exaggerating in places, not to deceive, but for emphasis. God gave the Jews the law, so that they would know what to do and what not to do, to maintain possession of their land. As time went on, this was projected forward into the afterlife.

The book of Job has a lot of death in it, which lays out the problem of evil. Why did God allow Job’s family to perish in disaster – just to teach him a lesson? Aside from justice, there’s the issue of humility, to accept God’s will, which we pray for in the Lord’s Prayer.

At another level, questions such as these inspire us to seek God.
 
I have never heard a convincing argument as to why the God of the OT is so radically different than the character that Jesus possessed. A lot of the arguments take the form of: “God didn’t create evil, people created evil” “Bad things happen to good people, but God can do good with the worst circumstances” etc, etc, etc.

None of this addresses the fact that the God of the OT constantly, consistently ordered His chosen people to kill every single person that got in their way of the land He was giving them. Every man, woman and child. Even their animals. People rightfully ask, “What kind of ‘loving’ God would do this?”

I have been reading the OT. I am now up to 2 Ezra. At one point God said He would “put a lying spirit in the mouths” of the king’s prophets to make them all tell lies to the king, which lead to the king’s death.

You have to ask yourself, “What ever happened to ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’ and ‘Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness’?” God is killing people directly and ordering His own people to murder left and right in addition to overriding people’s free will by making them tell lies. He violates His own laws!

I think when the OT prophets received a message from “God”, it may not always have been from God, but from their own barbaric imaginations.

The New Testament is the Christian scriptures. The OT is the Jewish scriptures. There is a reason why we are not Jews. Your husband would be wise to stick with the NT and take the OT with a grain of salt, instead of trying to justify why the God of the OT seems so angry all the time.
 
@BoomerangToo
Cool. 👍☺️

But how do you interpret the book of revelation ? 🤔

I understand it can be difficult to understand why God did certain things in the OT but while Jesus is love …

Revelation 19:11-16 New International Version (NIV)​

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast​

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[[a](BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 71 languages and 225 versions.? Revelation 19:11-16 New International Version (NIV)

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast​

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.
Doesn’t Jesus reaffirm the OT?
 
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You don’t have to respond to me. I don’t want to hijack the OP’s subject.

☺️ my pm is open though should you like to pm me. (Which ya don’t have to):grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
 
vincent10395 said:
When dealing with those of different views I wouldn’t recommend using an argument from authority. The person your discussing with may not acknowledge the same authority so it really comes down to debating points and seeing if they stand to reason
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John_Martin said:
It is only in trusting an authorized person that you have the truth that was sent by the authorizer.

Otherwise you have an opinion by someone who has no authority, either your own opinion or a shared opinion.
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OP, since you said your husband is Catholic, I spoke of Aurhority.
Vincent10395 gave examples of opinions and shared opinions -
Dawkins would be the atheist, and
Paul Copan would be the Protestant, who will “debate points” and “appeal to reason” as suggesting that reason and its opinion is trustworthy.

And for Catholic authority, in another post Trent Horn was listed; he is one who would champion Apostolic Aurhority rather than write from his reasonings and opinions. And the Catechism of the Catholic Church from another post was authored by Apostolic Authority.

John Martin
 
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@convert_mother

God wants to save our souls rather than our bodies until we reach heaven safely

Wisdom 12:1 For your immortal spirit is in all things.2 Therefore you correct little by little those who trespass,and you remind and warn them of the things through which they sin,so that they may be freed from wickedness and put their trust in you, O Lord.

The Sins of the Canaanites​

3 Those who lived long ago in your holy land 4 you hated for their detestable practices,their works of sorcery and unholy rites,5 their merciless slaughter of children,and their sacrificial feasting on human flesh and blood.These initiates from the midst of a heathen cult,6 these parents who murder helpless lives,you willed to destroy by the hands of our ancestors,7 so that the land most precious of all to you might receive a worthy colony of the servants of God.8 But even these you spared, since they were but mortals,and sent wasps as forerunners of your army to destroy them little by little,
9 though you were not unable to give the ungodly into the hands of the righteous in battle,or to destroy them at one blow by dread wild animals or your stern word.10 But judging them little by little you gave them an opportunity to repent,though you were not unaware that their origin was evil
and their wickedness inborn,and that their way of thinking would never change.11 For they were an accursed race from the beginning,and it was not through fear of anyone that you left them unpunished for their sins.

God Is Sovereign​

12 For who will say, “What have you done?”or will resist your judgment?Who will accuse you for the destruction of nations that you made?Or who will come before you to plead as an advocate for the unrighteous?13 For neither is there any god besides you, whose care is for all people,to whom you should prove that you have not judged unjustly;14 nor can any king or monarch confront you about those whom you have punished.15 You are righteous and you rule all things righteously,deeming it alien to your power to condemn anyone who does not deserve to be punished.16 For your strength is the source of righteousness,and your sovereignty over all causes you to spare all.17 For you show your strength when people doubt the completeness of your power,and you rebuke any insolence among those who know it.18 Although you are sovereign in strength, you judge with mildness,and with great forbearance you govern us;for you have power to act whenever you choose.

### God’s Lessons for Israel

19 Through such works you have taught your people that the righteous must be kind,and you have filled your children with good hope,because you give repentance for sins.20 For if you punished with such great care and indulgence the enemies of your servants and those deserving of death,granting them time and opportunity to give up their wickedness,21 with what strictness you have judged your children,to whose ancestors you gave oaths and covenants full of good promises!22 So while chastening us you scourge our enemies ten thousand times more,so that, when we judge, we may meditate upon your goodness,and when we are judged, we may expect mercy.
 
Continuation…

### The Punishment of the Egyptians

23 Therefore those who lived unrighteously, in a life of folly,you tormented through their own abominations.24 For they went far astray on the paths of error,accepting as gods those animals that even their enemies despised;they were deceived like foolish infants.25 Therefore, as though to children who cannot reason,you sent your judgment to mock them.26 But those who have not heeded the warning of mild rebukes will experience the deserved judgment of God.
27 For when in their suffering they became incensed at those creatures that they had thought to be gods, being punished by means of them,they saw and recognized as the true God the one whom they had before refused to know.Therefore the utmost condemnation came upon them.
 
c1949 said:
The Israelites did not come from Egypt into vacant land, but they were instructed to destroy those kingdoms who worshiped other gods, etc
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I wonder why God didn’t do the “destroying” Himself when he did it directly in many other cases. Why implicate and traumatize others to do this deed?
 
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