Conspiracies and power structures

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fons_vitae

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How do you debate with people who believe that a malevolent organization or power structure predetermines everything? The organizations and structures I have in mind particularly are:
  • The Patriarchy (for feminists of the non-Christian variety)
  • King Capital (for Marxists)
  • Religion (for atheists)
  • The Liberal Agenda (for Republicans)
  • The State (for ardent Libertarians–I’ve been there)
Even before religious considerations, I find this belief disturbing because it seems to negate free will. Any thoughts?
 
Well, I don’t know how you debate them. Mainly because I’m one of these sorts of people you get to debate.

I actually believe and take comfort in the idea that the Catholic Church is the largest voice standing against a New World Order. As I have read it, the NWO seeks to establish its own religion. It wants to make its own laws allowing (and even encouraging) abortion, marijuana usage, eugenics, and all kinds of other unsavoury things the Catholic Church will never, ever support. (This includes, of course, outsourcing to China and South America, as well as other societal injustices which we Catholics really ought to address more often since Catholic Social Teaching stands directly opposed to all of these injustices. But I digress.)

Now I admire the ultra-sternness and rigidity of the Orthodox Christians and some of the Protestants. I really do. But no Protestant nor Orthodox group is unified enough to stand against the world. Only in Catholicism is there found a bulwark strong enough and loud enough to protest against a New World Order founded on the culture of death. Instead of standing as Baptists, Anglicans, Church of God members, ETC., we MUST put our differences aside as Christians and in some way or another come together as one faith and defy the world.

I think we Christians in the US should form a Christian centralist political party, adopting the charitable intentions and the Christian culture of stewardship of the (more intelligent) Democrats and the economic prowess and Christian culture of life of the (more intelligent) Republicans. And maybe our neighbours in Europe could form some similar coalition (if there are any Christians left there 🤷).

And mind this post comes with the TarkanAttila certificate of non-commitment to any of the words above. I am just kicking some ideas around, OK? I can’t verify any of them as anyone’s beliefs, not even my own, only as my own suppositions.
 
TarkanAttila said:
Well, I don’t know how you debate them. Mainly because I’m one of these sorts of people you get to debate.

I actually believe and take comfort in the idea that the Catholic Church is the largest voice standing against a New World Order. As I have read it, the NWO seeks to establish its own religion. It wants to make its own laws allowing (and even encouraging) abortion, marijuana usage, eugenics, and all kinds of other unsavoury things the Catholic Church will never, ever support. (This includes, of course, outsourcing to China and South America, as well as other societal injustices which we Catholics really ought to address more often since Catholic Social Teaching stands directly opposed to all of these injustices. But I digress.)

Now I admire the ultra-sternness and rigidity of the Orthodox Christians and some of the Protestants. I really do. But no Protestant nor Orthodox group is unified enough to stand against the world. Only in Catholicism is there found a bulwark strong enough and loud enough to protest against a New World Order founded on the culture of death. Instead of standing as Baptists, Anglicans, Church of God members, ETC., we MUST put our differences aside as Christians and in some way or another come together as one faith and defy the world.

I think we Christians in the US should form a Christian centralist political party, adopting the charitable intentions and the Christian culture of stewardship of the (more intelligent) Democrats and the economic prowess and Christian culture of life of the (more intelligent) Republicans. And maybe our neighbours in Europe could form some similar coalition (if there are any Christians left there 🤷).

And mind this post comes with the TarkanAttila certificate of non-commitment to any of the words above. I am just kicking some ideas around, OK? I can’t verify any of them as anyone’s beliefs, not even my own, only as my own suppositions.
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But you don’t think that this NWO predetermines everything, do you?
 
NJJMBVB said:
But you don’t think that this NWO predetermines everything, do you?
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Yeah, I’m talking in particular about those who would despair because the NWO has conquered the Church or some such nonsense. Just believing that a worldly order or kosmos exists is pretty standard fare for Christians of all stripes–I doubt we’d debate, Tarkan 🙂 .
 
bump
Sorry, this thing wasn’t bumping on the Philosophy page.
 
fons_vitae said:
How do you debate with people who believe that a malevolent organization or power structure predetermines everything? The organizations and structures I have in mind particularly are:
  • The Patriarchy (for feminists of the non-Christian variety)
  • King Capital (for Marxists)
  • Religion (for atheists)
  • The Liberal Agenda (for Republicans)
  • The State (for ardent Libertarians–I’ve been there)
Even before religious considerations, I find this belief disturbing because it seems to negate free will. Any thoughts?
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Free will means I am at least partially responsible for what happens to me. It’s much more comforting to have a theory that blames it on someone else.😉
 
fons_vitae said:
Yeah, I’m talking in particular about those who would despair because the NWO has conquered the Church or some such nonsense. Just believing that a worldly order or kosmos exists is pretty standard fare for Christians of all stripes–I doubt we’d debate, Tarkan 🙂 .
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Oh, I’m sure the Church’ll ride it out in the end… we’ll always be around…

…but I can’t help but feel just a little worried - or fearful - about what lies ahead in the dark times that are coming.

Maybe I am a little afraid Christianity will dissolve altogether… like the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Norse.

Maybe I’m more worried that I’ll lose faith if the Church loses its power. 😦
 
TarkanAttila said:
Oh, I’m sure the Church’ll ride it out in the end… we’ll always be around…

…but I can’t help but feel just a little worried - or fearful - about what lies ahead in the dark times that are coming.

Maybe I am a little afraid Christianity will dissolve altogether… like the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Norse.

Maybe I’m more worried that I’ll lose faith if the Church loses its power. 😦
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The truth of Christianity is not reflected in the number of Christians… 🙂
 
And to be honest, I have a distrust of anyone who tries to tell me what I should believe, Catholic or not, because it’s like they’re recruiting or something, just trying to get me to be another vote for whatever cause they are supporting. Know what I mean?

Even if the person trying to convert you genuinely believes that what they believe will be superior to whatever you believe now (the way Dawkins and Hitchens believe about religion for instance)… I dunno.

I want to believe SOMETHING is right… but there’s evidence pointing in all different directions. There’s mudslingers on all sides. Ridiculers on all sides. People who will point out the facts and tell you you are wrong because of them on all sides. And while miracles in a mundane world are convincing, and Pascal’s wager is also compelling, I can’t help but feel that belief based on either of those two things (or both) is hollow.

There’s people all around me telling me who’s right, and who’s wrong, but both have good arguments, and both have first class bullsh****s. Both sides have personal anecdotes supporting their respective positions. I dunno which way to go, or what to believe. I dunno who’s right, and who’s wrong. Could civilization get on as it has for centuries without believing in God? Or does religion shape and hold together the fragile state of being we call civilization? Something I’m missing? I dunno!

I imagine we will find out how civilization fares with atheist principles and socialism dominating in 20, 50 years (in Europe, anyway). I pray the plans of Dawkins and Hitchens today turn as sour as they see the past 2000 years of Christianity. In many ways, what with Marxism and Communism, atheism’s already proven to be as much a hazard to humanity as the fiefdoms, kingdoms, and empires of the last two milleniums. But the European Union seems to be trending differently… Hm…

My problem extends far more deeply than politics or world events. It’s a question of the very stuff that makes the world, human society, and civilization tick.

I can’t even trust myself. How do I know I’m hearing God and not something else? After all, there ARE hundreds of different denominations of Protestants out there that got to where they got by trusting they were hearing God and doing His will. And to some degree they’re all off of the mark, right?
 
TarkanAttila said:
I want to believe SOMETHING is right… but there’s evidence pointing in all different directions.
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You can’t help believe stuff, and I’d favor the quiet beliefs of most people whether they be theists, atheists, liberals, republicans or whatever.

It’s old now, but listen to John Lennon’s Whatever Gets You Through The Night (lyrics here). There’s nothing new under the sun so we can’t help but join clubs in our beliefs. Lennon’s thesis seems to be follow your own nose, and no club is worth your time if you have to be seduced into joining or threatened into staying. “Do it wrong or do it right 'salright, 'salright” is kind of liberating. We all get things wrong and get forgiven. Or at least, that’s what my club tells me, yours too I think. 🙂
I can’t even trust myself.
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Oh yes you can. Evidence comes in many forms. The thing is to go with your own experience and avoid being manipulated by anyone with a closed mind and cold heart – the one who says “they” are out to get you, people are basically evil, God has no plan, you must be über-rational, join now or else you’re doomed, etc.

"May the long time sun shine upon you, all love surround you, and the pure light within you guide your way on.” – traditional Irish, also a mantra for some Sikhs. Not sure which club invented the blessing, but it’s a cool philosophy. :cool:
 
You can doubt whatever you want, but if you’re looking for the truth, it’s going to take a little effort.

Of course there are power structures that guide events. And many of them are out in the open. You just have to be wealthy enough to come in contact with them. I’m not saying they always announce their intentions but seeing the plan unfold isn’t too difficult. All you have to do is get control of the media and you’re mostly done. Just convince people you’re right while distracting them with endless streams of nonsense like celebrities and computer games so they don’t think things through. And convince them that there are no absolute truths, it’s all just shades of grey.

All a conspiracy actually is is a small group of people planning and then acting in secret. Happens all the time.

Just be careful with your time and money.

God bless,
Ed
 
I can’t stand the lyrics for Whatever Gets You Through the Night. When I first heard them, I was like, What?

“Be it wrong or be it right
It’s alright, alright.”

Nope. Not in my book.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
You can doubt whatever you want, but if you’re looking for the truth, it’s going to take a little effort.
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Easy, tiger. I’ve pursued the truth with a vengeance for as long as I can remember… heck, that’s why I intend to be confirmed in the Church. That being said, however, my family has become so obsessed with NWO, CFR, and Federal Reserve conspiracies that it has left them a little deranged. I don’t deny that there are people at the top without the best things in mind for us. But what do you suggest we do? Do They have a headquarters we can storm? A bunker we can bust? And if They control all media, how can you find the truth? All this just leads to paranoia and madness if you follow it to the end. Be wary, yes; go mad, no.
 
fons_vitae said:
Easy, tiger. I’ve pursued the truth with a vengeance for as long as I can remember… heck, that’s why I intend to be confirmed in the Church. That being said, however, my family has become so obsessed with NWO, CFR, and Federal Reserve conspiracies that it has left them a little deranged. I don’t deny that there are people at the top without the best things in mind for us. But what do you suggest we do? Do They have a headquarters we can storm? A bunker we can bust? And if They control all media, how can you find the truth? All this just leads to paranoia and madness if you follow it to the end. Be wary, yes; go mad, no.
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I’m not suggesting going to any extremes, but if your mind is only filled with the latest about Britney, Brad and whoever, then when something does come up that requires a little thinking, you will not know what to do. The actual function of the Federal Reserve is unknown to most people. During the Kennedy Administration, the President attempted to abolish the money we use today, called a Federal Reserve Note and replace it with a United States Note. That way, money would be backed by actual metal held by the United States and the Federal Reserve could not charge the government interest. I saw the United States Notes in circulation. You can get them on the collector’s market.

People generally don’t know what the World Bank or International Monetary Fund do either. No, you don’t have to storm anything, but you should be informed about what’s happening around you. It only takes one person armed with the truth to expose something that is hurting people around the world. The so-called housing crisis was partly caused by individuals who falsely overvalued homes. Investigations are ongoing.

The media is controlled in the sense that it presents fluff and the latest murders, robberies and scandals without much depth. There is good information out there but it must be looked for. Not everyone is going to join the FBI or become an investigator, but a few will. We should encourage people to actually become knowledgable about something as opposed to having a 2 minute understanding of it from a sound bite they heard somewhere or a fragment of a wikipedia entry. All I’m saying is that we should be educated.

To put it another way, we should be good citizens and engage our government, as opposed to becoming passive to abuses of power even at the local level.

God bless,
Ed
 
inocente said:
It’s an argument against scrupulosity and beating yourself up.
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I wish I could believe that. Around that time, John Lennon had become another person. I can’t say with certainty that Yoko Ono helped turn his thinking in a new direction but it had turned. That song is about restless nihilism. About desperation. It was not about inner peace, but about being out of control and without direction.

Instead of singing about happiness, it was “hey, just do whatever, man, ya know? If you gotta get wasted to keep the demons away, do it. If you gotta get high, or just have sex with your girlfriend, as long as it keeps you from feeling alone and depressed, just do it.”

Mr. Lennon went from She Loves You to Whatever Gets You Through The Night, a song about dysfunctional living.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
To put it another way, we should be good citizens and engage our government, as opposed to becoming passive to abuses of power even at the local level.
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Again, small-l libertarian here, former big-L Libertarian. I’m suspicious enough. 😃
 
edwest2 said:
I wish I could believe that.
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I guess few pop stars will end up as saints, and I like the audacity of the lyrics.

We all reap what we sow, and I think that applies not just to outward behavior but also to the way we see the world. If we want to be naive then we’ll see everyone through rose tinted glasses, and if we want to see conspiracies we’ll inevitably see self-confirming evidence everywhere. We don’t have enough time or resources to personally research absolutely everything, and so our attitude is paramount in how we interpret the evidence at hand.
 
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