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Paul_Folbrecht
Guest
Basically, I’m just not going to get into that, and that is not a cop-out.
FYI, for context, I attend TLM on Sundays and a NO during the week. (My preference for the TLM is vastly greater.)
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FYI, for context, I attend TLM on Sundays and a NO during the week. (My preference for the TLM is vastly greater.)
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RUINATION_IPA
Guest
There’s a lot of assumptions flying when it was ultimately a pretty straightforward question: Do you ever discuss this type of stuff and what kind of reactions do you get?
I don’t doubt that the gates of hell will never prevail, I don’t doubt the validity of the NO Mass etc… and I’m sure not a sedevacantist. Truth be told, I don’t worry and I’ve never lost a minute of sleep over any of this. Who could worry during the storm when Christ is in the boat? But it makes for some interesting discussions and it reinforces my decision to attend the TLM at all possible opportunity. Truly we are blessed to have a stronghold of Catholic orthodoxy found in the TLM and the Priests who offer it. As well as a few holdouts in the NO who do a wonderful job of being true lights and disciples in a time of darkness and confusion. Things are not always as confusing as they seem; we tend to make them what they are.
I don’t doubt that the gates of hell will never prevail, I don’t doubt the validity of the NO Mass etc… and I’m sure not a sedevacantist. Truth be told, I don’t worry and I’ve never lost a minute of sleep over any of this. Who could worry during the storm when Christ is in the boat? But it makes for some interesting discussions and it reinforces my decision to attend the TLM at all possible opportunity. Truly we are blessed to have a stronghold of Catholic orthodoxy found in the TLM and the Priests who offer it. As well as a few holdouts in the NO who do a wonderful job of being true lights and disciples in a time of darkness and confusion. Things are not always as confusing as they seem; we tend to make them what they are.
I’ll pass on that… I don’t find anything physically or spiritually attractive about Julia Roberts… although she’s a mediocre actress.
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SenorSalsa
Guest
:doh2:
topics like this just make me sad
topics like this just make me sad
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Daviin
Guest
Hi ,
It must be understood that the gates will not completely prevail as to eliminate the Church from existence entirely from the earth. Let us keep in mind the words of faithful St. Athanasius who was one of the few who opposed the Arian majority at his time:
It must be understood that the gates will not completely prevail as to eliminate the Church from existence entirely from the earth. Let us keep in mind the words of faithful St. Athanasius who was one of the few who opposed the Arian majority at his time:
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Paul_Folbrecht
Guest
Stray cats out in the cold winter also make me sad.
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Paul_Folbrecht
Guest
It’s unwise to breach such subjects with anything but the utmost caution.
I rather agree with all of that.
So would I. I had just felt the urge to make a silly joke to break the ice.I’ll pass on that… I don’t find anything physically or spiritually attractive about Julia Roberts… although she’s a mediocre actress.
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Paul_Folbrecht
Guest
I don’t “believe” in any “conspiracy theory” because those terms essentially imply holding definite knowledge about something that is intrinsically unknowable.
I do believe that Freemasonry has held the Catholic Church as its primary enemy since its inception, and has indeed not only attempted to infiltrate it but publicly laid out its plan to destroy the Church. This is the reason that Popes have spoken out so strongly against this element and why it remains an excommunicable offense to join a masonic organization.
(I think people in Europe tend to understand this stuff a little better, and it sounds less whacky, as over there the masonic element has been much more visible.)
I am going to quote now from an absolutely fascinating book I have just happened to read called Athanasius and the Church of Our Time by Bishop Dr. Rudolf Graber, published in 1974. This amazingly wise and prophetic book is a must read for anyone who wants to understand the some of the forces that had been striving for a council and the post-council environment.
[Note that this man does speak with the authority of a bishop. Of course this doesn’t mean he’s infallible, but if you’re going to read what I quote and then propose that the author is actually opposed to the Church (which would be a nonsensical charge, yet it is often levied against those critical of the V2 reforms), remember that you’re speaking of a bishop and perhaps think a bit about the inherent contradiction.]
There is really a ton of quotable material. I’m just going to pass on a couple notable passages.
From the chapter on ‘secret societies’:
"It is worth giving special mention to the ex-canon Roca (1830-1893)… he was ordained to the priesthood in 1858.
He was very well-versed in the occult sciences and disseminated extensive propaganda. Because of this he came into conflict with Rome. Despite being excommunicated he continued his activities, preached revolution and proclaimed the coming of the ‘divine syncharcy’ under a Pope converted to scientific Christianity’. He speaks of a new, enlightened Church influenced by the socialism of Jesus and the Apostles.
…
He declares point-blank: ‘My Christ is not the Christ of the Vatican… The new social order will therefore be founded outside of Rome, in spite of and in opposition to Rome… The new church, which might not be able to retain anything of the Scholastic doctrine and the original form of the former Church, will nevertheless receive consecration and canon jurisdiction from Rome.’ A few years ago this was still inconceivable to us, but today…?
…
With reference to the future liturgy he believes that 'the divine cult in the form directed by the liturgy, ceremonial, ritual, and regulations of the Roman Church will shortly undergo a transformation at an ecumenical council (!), which will restore to it the venerable simplicity of the golden age of the Apostles in accordance with the dictates of conscience and modern civilization… the Papacy will fail; it will die under the hallowed knife which the fathers of the last council will forge’. [The exclamation point above is Graber’s.]
Doesn’t one have to admit it’s pretty amazing that an occult apostate in the late 19th century wrote these things… in particular, using the exact same argument (restoration to ‘apostolic simplicity’) for reforming the liturgy that the liberals at the council used?
The next passage I will quote is later in the book (by the way, it’s an extremely short book - about 70 pages) about the immediate aftermath of the council. Note in the passage below that masonry was so brazen about their intents and wishes for the Church that they were published openly in public periodicals.
'In this vein the Paris journal of the Grand Orient de France [this is a masonic lodge - PF], L’Humanisme, wrote quite openly in 1968: ‘Among the pillars which collapse most easily we note the Magisterium; the infallibility, which was held to be firmly established by the First Vatican Council and which has just had to face being stormed by married people on the occasion of the publication of the encyclical Humanae Vitae; the Real Eucharistic Prescence, which the Church was able to impose of the medieval masses and which will disappear with the increasing inter-communion and inter-celebration of Catholic priests and Protestant pastors; the hallowed character of the priest, which comes from the institution of the Sacrament of Ordination and which will be replaced by a decision for the priesthood for a trial period; the differentiation between the direction-giving Church and the lower clergy, whereas from now on the directions will proceed fro the base of the pyramid up as in any democracy; the gradual disappearance of the ontological and metaphysical character of the sacraments and then the subsequent death of confession now that sin in our days has become a completely anachronistic concept handed down to us by the rigorous medieval philosophy which was in turn the heritage of Biblical pessimism.’"
About this amazing passage Bishop Graber has to say: "If in the face of these unambiguous admissions anyone still holds to the opinion that the events in the Church are marginal phenomena or transitional difficulties which will die down of their own accord in time, he is simply beyond hope."
I do believe that Freemasonry has held the Catholic Church as its primary enemy since its inception, and has indeed not only attempted to infiltrate it but publicly laid out its plan to destroy the Church. This is the reason that Popes have spoken out so strongly against this element and why it remains an excommunicable offense to join a masonic organization.
(I think people in Europe tend to understand this stuff a little better, and it sounds less whacky, as over there the masonic element has been much more visible.)
I am going to quote now from an absolutely fascinating book I have just happened to read called Athanasius and the Church of Our Time by Bishop Dr. Rudolf Graber, published in 1974. This amazingly wise and prophetic book is a must read for anyone who wants to understand the some of the forces that had been striving for a council and the post-council environment.
[Note that this man does speak with the authority of a bishop. Of course this doesn’t mean he’s infallible, but if you’re going to read what I quote and then propose that the author is actually opposed to the Church (which would be a nonsensical charge, yet it is often levied against those critical of the V2 reforms), remember that you’re speaking of a bishop and perhaps think a bit about the inherent contradiction.]
There is really a ton of quotable material. I’m just going to pass on a couple notable passages.
From the chapter on ‘secret societies’:
"It is worth giving special mention to the ex-canon Roca (1830-1893)… he was ordained to the priesthood in 1858.
He was very well-versed in the occult sciences and disseminated extensive propaganda. Because of this he came into conflict with Rome. Despite being excommunicated he continued his activities, preached revolution and proclaimed the coming of the ‘divine syncharcy’ under a Pope converted to scientific Christianity’. He speaks of a new, enlightened Church influenced by the socialism of Jesus and the Apostles.
…
He declares point-blank: ‘My Christ is not the Christ of the Vatican… The new social order will therefore be founded outside of Rome, in spite of and in opposition to Rome… The new church, which might not be able to retain anything of the Scholastic doctrine and the original form of the former Church, will nevertheless receive consecration and canon jurisdiction from Rome.’ A few years ago this was still inconceivable to us, but today…?
…
With reference to the future liturgy he believes that 'the divine cult in the form directed by the liturgy, ceremonial, ritual, and regulations of the Roman Church will shortly undergo a transformation at an ecumenical council (!), which will restore to it the venerable simplicity of the golden age of the Apostles in accordance with the dictates of conscience and modern civilization… the Papacy will fail; it will die under the hallowed knife which the fathers of the last council will forge’. [The exclamation point above is Graber’s.]
Doesn’t one have to admit it’s pretty amazing that an occult apostate in the late 19th century wrote these things… in particular, using the exact same argument (restoration to ‘apostolic simplicity’) for reforming the liturgy that the liberals at the council used?
The next passage I will quote is later in the book (by the way, it’s an extremely short book - about 70 pages) about the immediate aftermath of the council. Note in the passage below that masonry was so brazen about their intents and wishes for the Church that they were published openly in public periodicals.
'In this vein the Paris journal of the Grand Orient de France [this is a masonic lodge - PF], L’Humanisme, wrote quite openly in 1968: ‘Among the pillars which collapse most easily we note the Magisterium; the infallibility, which was held to be firmly established by the First Vatican Council and which has just had to face being stormed by married people on the occasion of the publication of the encyclical Humanae Vitae; the Real Eucharistic Prescence, which the Church was able to impose of the medieval masses and which will disappear with the increasing inter-communion and inter-celebration of Catholic priests and Protestant pastors; the hallowed character of the priest, which comes from the institution of the Sacrament of Ordination and which will be replaced by a decision for the priesthood for a trial period; the differentiation between the direction-giving Church and the lower clergy, whereas from now on the directions will proceed fro the base of the pyramid up as in any democracy; the gradual disappearance of the ontological and metaphysical character of the sacraments and then the subsequent death of confession now that sin in our days has become a completely anachronistic concept handed down to us by the rigorous medieval philosophy which was in turn the heritage of Biblical pessimism.’"
About this amazing passage Bishop Graber has to say: "If in the face of these unambiguous admissions anyone still holds to the opinion that the events in the Church are marginal phenomena or transitional difficulties which will die down of their own accord in time, he is simply beyond hope."
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Paul_Folbrecht
Guest
[Continued from last post.]
And now the final quote I’ll provide, a few paragraphs after the above:
“And now we have come to the climax and can only hope that the full significance of the following quotation from L’Humanisme may be recognized: ‘When the traditional structures collapse, all that remains will follow. The Church did not foresee that it would be contested in this way and it is no longer anything like prepared to absorb and assimilate this revolutionary spirit… It is not the scaffold that is awaiting the Pope, it is the rise of the local churches organizing themselves democratically, rejecting the dividing line between clergy and laymen, creating their own dogma and living in complete autonomy of Rome.’”
Is that another stunner, or what? Remember that this was written by a masonic organization in Europe in 1968.
I will now submit to you that the predictions/wishes of this writer have largely come to pass - with one very important caveat: The Magisterium was not destroyed, and the liturgy was not destroyed, and the Papacy was not destroyed, not to the extent or in the manner of the plan laid out, because the Holy Spirit would not allow such things to come to pass.
So, though the Magisterium exists and does not teach error, its affects have been so watered-down by various elements that it and its teachings are inconsequential to a majority of the world’s Catholics.
While the ‘unbloody Sacrifice offered in every nation’ continues to be offered daily, it is blasphemed regularly in various ways, and, again, the majority of Catholics do not understand or believe in the core doctrine of the Real Presence, and do not understand the theology of the Mass as the making present of Calvary.
While the Papacy exists as it was established by Christ, with the Pope as the very Vicar of Christ on Earth, this is absolutely in spite of the widespread disobedience and teaching of many of the world’s bishops in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, who behaved as though the Pope were merely another bishop, a peer rather than their absolute superior.
For those who would scoff at these conclusions, what do you make of the quotations and the uncanny parallels with the (completely unprecedented) changes we’ve seen in the Church?
And now the final quote I’ll provide, a few paragraphs after the above:
“And now we have come to the climax and can only hope that the full significance of the following quotation from L’Humanisme may be recognized: ‘When the traditional structures collapse, all that remains will follow. The Church did not foresee that it would be contested in this way and it is no longer anything like prepared to absorb and assimilate this revolutionary spirit… It is not the scaffold that is awaiting the Pope, it is the rise of the local churches organizing themselves democratically, rejecting the dividing line between clergy and laymen, creating their own dogma and living in complete autonomy of Rome.’”
Is that another stunner, or what? Remember that this was written by a masonic organization in Europe in 1968.
I will now submit to you that the predictions/wishes of this writer have largely come to pass - with one very important caveat: The Magisterium was not destroyed, and the liturgy was not destroyed, and the Papacy was not destroyed, not to the extent or in the manner of the plan laid out, because the Holy Spirit would not allow such things to come to pass.
So, though the Magisterium exists and does not teach error, its affects have been so watered-down by various elements that it and its teachings are inconsequential to a majority of the world’s Catholics.
While the ‘unbloody Sacrifice offered in every nation’ continues to be offered daily, it is blasphemed regularly in various ways, and, again, the majority of Catholics do not understand or believe in the core doctrine of the Real Presence, and do not understand the theology of the Mass as the making present of Calvary.
While the Papacy exists as it was established by Christ, with the Pope as the very Vicar of Christ on Earth, this is absolutely in spite of the widespread disobedience and teaching of many of the world’s bishops in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, who behaved as though the Pope were merely another bishop, a peer rather than their absolute superior.
For those who would scoff at these conclusions, what do you make of the quotations and the uncanny parallels with the (completely unprecedented) changes we’ve seen in the Church?
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una_fides
Guest
We can thank the “dialogue” with non-Catholic “christians” for disobedience to the pope. The more “respect” is shown for the Eastern Orthodox Churches and protestant churches, the more and more that the clergy are accepting their arguments concerning the nature of the papacy and are rejecting the papacy themselves. They are becoming more and more autonomous. Such is the appeal of protestantism to human pride of one thinking he know better than the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth, which was established on Christ and built up upon the rock of Peter, the first pope. The Church is currently in a state of anarchy and rebellion, and the bishops are in too many occasions disobeying the pope as if he were merely there equal (i.e. schism, sounds like Eastern Orthodox theology to me…).
I think that all Catholics need to be confronted with the teachings of the Church concerning the nature of the Church being such that it must on a whole be accepted or reject and that there can be no middle ground. Let the liberals leave! It’s time to purge the Church of non-Catholics who flaunt their own versions of what they think Catholicism to be. The faithful are sick of receiving watered down theology. We want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; please help us God!
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pnewton
Guest
No. I totally and utterly reject any notion of the mason conspiracy of infiltrating the Catholic Church. I have heard and read all those that have made such claims and find them thin indeed. I, like puzzleannie, will exercise my faith in God and His church. Should such an attempt be made, it would come to naught.
Finally, my reason for rejecting these ideas comes the people I have come across that believe these ideas. I have known Christians as both Protestant and a Catholic. There are those who exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit and those who do not. These conspiracist that I have encountered do not meet the “light of Christ” test. While this is somewhat subjective, in a complex world, sometimes it is all we have.
Finally, my reason for rejecting these ideas comes the people I have come across that believe these ideas. I have known Christians as both Protestant and a Catholic. There are those who exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit and those who do not. These conspiracist that I have encountered do not meet the “light of Christ” test. While this is somewhat subjective, in a complex world, sometimes it is all we have.
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Paul_Folbrecht
Guest
So, does your disbelief in ‘conspiracy theories’ extend to the public masonic writings themselves that spoke of the ‘changes’ they were working for in the Church?
And the bishops and Popes who called them out?
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Pax_et_Caritas
Guest
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pnewton
Guest
My eyes are not crossed, I did not laugh, nor did I ridicule. Do you find it so difficult to deal with those who disagree with you that you must belittle them?
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Pax_et_Caritas
Guest
I was only having a little fun with you.
Now, if I responded the way you did above, you would probably have made some kind of comment about the SSPX supporters being bitter and unable to take a joke.
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pnewton
Guest
SSPX? I think you have the wrong thread. This one is on sedevacantist and conspiracy theorists.
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Paul_Folbrecht
Guest
Uh, it’s on the latter topic, as you can see from the title.
The two have nothing to do with each other.
Nice try!
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una_fides
Guest
I don’t see where in the OP anything sedevacantist is mentioned, though I’m sure they share some of the same ideas. Perhaps this may be why you reacted as you did to the idea of infiltration, since many sedevacantists use this as an argument as part of their agenda to discredit the current hierarchy. I accept the pope as legitimate and the bishops, but I also know from experience and from simply reading the writings of priests and bishops who are currently a part of the Church structure that there are many who claim to be part of the fold who are ravenous wolves spreading errors and who oppose the Catholic Church by opposing what she teaches and by spreading their modernist ideas. I have witnessed RCIA classes being told to NOT go to regular confession whatever they do and that they only need to go if their life gets completely off track as a sort of counseling session since the priest was of the opinion that no one could ever actually commit a mortal sin. I have witnessed the same priest tell people that it should not disturb anyone’s faith if they actually found the real body of Jesus Christ since we don’t know if he was bodily raised from the dead or just “spiritually” raised. I’ve heard the people this priest has influenced give attempted historical arguments to deny the virgin birth of Christ. He’s supported socialism. The list goes on… I just happened to be “lucky enough” to pick the nearby parish. I now almost exclusively attend Traditional Latin Masses so I am not in contact with such priests and such parishes or I would have many more examples to give I’m sure.
We also know as a historical fact that over a thousand Communists were helped to become Catholic priests and such was testified before Congress. I do not doubt that Communists and Freemasons have infiltrated the Church, to what degree I do not know, but I’m sure they are there and are doing their best to support their liberal ideas in attempt to pass them off as “the spirit of Vatican II”
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pnewton
Guest
I apologize. That was a very big mistake on my part.
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Paul_Folbrecht
Guest
Reading of your posts over a long period of time suggests that you’re a reasonable guy.
Unfortunately, to some degree this ‘infiltration’ being discussed is virtually a matter of fact.
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