Constant NFP frustrastions HELP!

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My DH and I have been married for almost 2 years 🙂 . We already have 2 kids (8 months and 2 years). We have been using STM NFP ever since marriage prep, but obviously it hasn’t worked the way it was portrayed to. We got pregnant with our daughter after meeting with our teaching couple and a NFP chart “expert” and were told that I was NOT ovulating. Needless to say we were trying to avoid pregnancy and made it clear with our teaching couple and the chart expert.

My current charts have DH and I end up abstaining for 23-26 days per 30-35 day cycles:confused: , this is ONLY abstaining for phase 2, I don’t really have a phase 1 😦 just really heavy menstration. We have meet with our teaching couple several times to look at my charts ( I have 6 total, I didn’t get any lactational ammenorrhea with exclusive breastfeeding) and they still don’t know what is causing my severely long phase 2. The only response I have gotten is to keep charting and it will get better. Which is SUPER frustrating. I have no idea what to currently do.🤷 I am so done with all this confusion and currently feel failed by NFP. I am really starting to consider BC of some sort, I don’t want to end up with 30 children :eek: (keep in mind I am only 22 so I have many years of apparently amazingly fertile years ahead of us). Does anyone have any advice or any ways of coping with similar situation?
Thanks
 
Dear Jones2008,

Please try to find a Creighton Model Fertility Care Practitioner near you. The method is not that different from Sympto-thermal, except that CM has specific features to address cases like yours. They can help you get to the bottom of your personal fertility pattern and help remove some of this medical mystery. Try this link: fertilitycare.org

Best of luck to you!
 
If STM does not work, get a good pro-NFP doc to give you a look over and then find a different method. You could add an ovulation detector machine even!
 
There is a book called “Fertility, Cycles & Nutrition” by Marilyn M. Shannon that might be of some help. It details how your “diet affects your menstrual cycles & fertility.” It also specifically addresses the heavy bleeding that you mentioned. I hope this might help!
 
I suggest you contact a Creighton or Marquette Model NFP instructor. Chart Creighton for 6 months and then contact the Pope Paul VI Institute www.popepaulvi.com to get to the bottom of your cycle and consult with Dr. Hilgers or one of the doctors trained in his method.

Yes, you may need to commit to an extended period of abstinence to chart consistently in the new method for several months, but if you have a serious need to avoid pregnancy it will be worthwhile to do so.

I am sure you are frustrated, but remember contraception is gravely immoral and can never be used.
 
I had a very long phase 2 when I first started charting, but in my case, that translated into an incredibly short phase 3. I had a luteal phase defect (meaning the time between ovulation and my next period was too short to sustain pregnancy). My teaching couple had no explanation as to why my phase 2 was so long, and I didn’t actually learn what my problem was called until after I found this board. Changing my diet fixed my luteal phase defect (which I also didn’t know had solved the problem until after I found CAF; I just changed my diet on my own and figured it helped my fertility).

I am surprised that your teaching couple didn’t recommend abstinence during the first 4-6 cycles of charting. Did they go over the 7 Standards of Ecological Breastfeeding with you? Exclusive nursing isn’t enough to delay fertility in most cases, but Ecological Breastfeeding typically is.

That’s awful that you haven’t been helped by your teaching couple. 😦 I hope you find helpful resources here!
 
YES - like the other have mentioned - try another method! Just because the sympto-thermal method works for others doesn’t mean it’s idea for you. Try Creighton or Marquette!
 
Truly_Beloved said:
Exclusive nursing isn’t enough to delay fertility in most cases, but Ecological Breastfeeding typically is.
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Not at all true in my case. Not at all true in my daughter-in-law’s case. Inadequate diet and nutrient depletion is what reduces and delays fertility in all women. Inadequate diet that doesn’t meet the demands of breastfeeding combined with the demands of the mother’s body very easily results in sufficient *undernourishment * and nutrient depletion of the mother to reduce or delay fertility in the mother. In the old days inadequate diet and nutrient depletion enabled the spacing of births but it is also why the home birthing ecological breastfeeding urban tenement women would routinely say that they would lose one tooth for each child. Inadequate diet and nutrient depletion not only delays fertility, but also produces nutrient deficient breast milk. If you’re an ecological breastfeeding organic gardening whole foods bread baking earth mother, you’re not going to experience much, if any, delay in your fertility from “ecological breastfeeding” because you will maintain sufficient nutrition to support your fertility.
 
Truly_Beloved said:
Exclusive nursing isn’t enough to delay fertility in most cases, but Ecological Breastfeeding typically is.
Click to expand...
Not at all true in my case. Not at all true in my daughter-in-law’s case. Inadequate diet and nutrient depletion is what reduces and delays fertility in all women. Inadequate diet that doesn’t meet the demands of breastfeeding combined with the demands of the mother’s body very easily results in sufficient *undernourishment * and nutrient depletion of the mother to reduce or delay fertility in the mother. In the old days inadequate diet and nutrient depletion enabled the spacing of births but it is also why the home birthing ecological breastfeeding urban tenement women would routinely say that they would lose one tooth for each child. Inadequate diet and nutrient depletion not only delays fertility, but also produces nutrient deficient breast milk. If you’re an ecological breastfeeding organic gardening whole foods bread baking earth mother, you’re not going to experience much, if any, delay in your fertility from “ecological breastfeeding” because you will maintain sufficient nutrition to support your fertility.
 
former_Catholic said:
Not at all true in my case. Not at all true in my daughter-in-law’s case. Inadequate diet and nutrient depletion is what reduces and delays fertility in all women. Inadequate diet that doesn’t meet the demands of breastfeeding combined with the demands of the mother’s body very easily results in sufficient *undernourishment * and nutrient depletion of the mother to reduce or delay fertility in the mother. In the old days inadequate diet and nutrient depletion enabled the spacing of births but it is also why the home birthing ecological breastfeeding urban tenement women would routinely say that they would lose one tooth for each child. Inadequate diet and nutrient depletion not only delays fertility, but also produces nutrient deficient breast milk. If you’re an ecological breastfeeding organic gardening whole foods bread baking earth mother, you’re not going to experience much, if any, delay in your fertility from “ecological breastfeeding” because you will maintain sufficient nutrition to support your fertility.
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please cite your sources for this. Lactational amhorea is a real “condition” for a nursing mother, and not because of malnutrition. My mother was malnurished growing up, and I am not malnurished. I am exclusively (though not ecologically) breastfeeding my son. It delayed my cycle for 8 months. I gained weight while breastfeeding and still had my cycle delayed. I eat well and take a prenatal vitamin. But it is true it doesn’t work for everyone, (which is what she said using Typically instead of always).

Again, this is untrue, my OB has a special care for ladies still in amhorea and never mentioned anything about malnutrition. If you are going to claim such things, it would be appreciated if you could cite your sources.
 
I’m all for the Marquette Method. The Clearblue Easy Fertility Monitor actually measures the hormones in your urine. You can get them pretty cheaply on Ebay or drugstore.com. It’s nice to have this extra assurance.
 
[Q/|+:p/ l=OTE=kage_ar;6313306]If STM does not work, get a good pro-NFP doc to give you a look over and then find a different method. You could add an ovulation detector machine even!
**
I have to agree w/ this post. We use the Creighton method which is easy when I’m not breastfeeding, but when bf’ing we do have issues w/ the constant signs of fertility . We now have a fertility monitor and it works great!! It wasn’t cheap but we didn’t have to buy any add on monthly test strips, so it was a one time cost which isn’t too shabby;). If you want to know the brand, private message me and I’ll tell ya.

Also, have you heard of the Marquette method of NFP? It’s fairly new (I apologize if it’s already been mentioned on this thread), but combines cervical mucus observations w/ cross checking w/ a fertility monitor (Clear Blue Easy, I think??:confused:).
I know that what you are going thru is hard, consider it a cross in your life that will help you to attain Heaven;), don’t give up, the struggles you are dealing w/ are normal and will improve w/ time…finding a new method seems like the best thing for you to do at this point. ABC could hurt your marriage, your soul, and your body:(), I’d be trying new NFP methods if I were you. ;)**
 
jilly4ski said:
If you are going to claim such things, it would be appreciated if you could cite your sources.
Click to expand...
My source is my personal experience.
I practiced full ecological breastfeeding. I was pregnant again while still fully in a state of
lactational amenorrhea, and with symptothermal and Billings charts that NFP counselors, midwives, and physicians all concluded (in retrospect) must have indicated some sort of bizarre permanent state of “low-level pseudo fertility” that they deemed impossible to have discerned beforehand. Would a modern fertility monitor have made it possible to have discerned ovulation beforehand? I don’t know. Modern fertility monitors didn’t exist back then. There was only symptothermal and Billings. I also had 2 busloads of medical students who reviewed my case as part of their required class in medical school when that child was born. In my experience and observation, medical science tends to leave a lot of data on the floor when it doesn’t meet the preferred model, but it is interesting being written up for the medical journals as *“the anomaly.” *

“Typical” results may mean very little to an OP troubled by a non-typical cycle. They will already give her anomaly points, just for having a “non-typical” cycle (non-typical for whom?). Even at best, the Lactational Amenorrhea method of birth control only works for the first 6 months after childbirth, and even then, and perfectly practiced, 2 out of every 100 women end up pregnant nonetheless (the ones with the “anomaly” points). Children’s Hospital Boston claims Lactational Amenorrhea is very unreliable as a birth control method after 6 months: youngwomenshealth.org/lam.html
and I have my fully ecological breastfeeding co-sleeping daughter-in-law’s personal experience and a second grandchild to back that fact up, along with her 3rd now on the way.

Nutritional deficiency easily causes amenorrhea in all women, with or without childbirth and breastfeeding being involved, and weight gain and prenatal vitamins are no guarantee that nutritional deficiencies are not present. Weight gain in itself can be an indication of nutritional deficiency. You can easily look it up in any medical textbook you’ve got on hand, or for more information try this citation:
Heinig MJ, Nommsen-Rivers LA, Peerson JM, Dewey KG. Factors related to duration of postpartum amenorrhoea among USA women with prolonged lactation. J Biosoc Sci 1994;26:517–27…
 
I’d echo everyone else’s suggestions to find a different method. I might be wrong in saying this, but I’m pretty sure that most women can find more ‘useable’ days using Creighton vs. STM. Creighton certainly does typically have more experienced, well-trained instructors in the medical field to offer, as well.

More than switching your method, maybe trying to shift your attitude regarding NFP would bring you some peace, too. I know you’re 22 and have 2 kids already, and feel like you’re really early on in marriage and don’t feel like you can handle a huge family, but NFP isn’t just Church-approved birth control. It’s a holistic way that involves discerning constantly what God’s plan is for our families and responsibly working with Him in growing our families. What NFP recognizes is that we are not the ones in ultimate “control” of our fertility–God is. NFP involves trusting God, even in this area. Without that point of view in mind, it can become really easy to feel overwhelmed or failed by the method, and to ultimately turn to the sinful, easy way out.

I don’t mean to lecture…I’m also young (23) and married for less than 2 years, but we’re dealing with the opposite NFP problem: infertility. You never know what the future may bring or what God has in store, but we all are called just to trust that He won’t give us more than we can handle.
 
former_Catholic said:
My source is my personal experience.
I practiced full ecological breastfeeding. I was pregnant again while still fully in a state of
lactational amenorrhea, and with symptothermal and Billings charts that NFP counselors, midwives, and physicians all concluded (in retrospect) must have indicated some sort of bizarre permanent state of “low-level pseudo fertility” that they deemed impossible to have discerned beforehand. Would a modern fertility monitor have made it possible to have discerned ovulation beforehand? I don’t know. Modern fertility monitors didn’t exist back then. There was only symptothermal and Billings. I also had 2 busloads of medical students who reviewed my case as part of their required class in medical school when that child was born. In my experience and observation, medical science tends to leave a lot of data on the floor when it doesn’t meet the preferred model, but it is interesting being written up for the medical journals as *“the anomaly.” *

“Typical” results may mean very little to an OP troubled by a non-typical cycle. They will already give her anomaly points, just for having a “non-typical” cycle (non-typical for whom?). Even at best, the Lactational Amenorrhea method of birth control only works for the first 6 months after childbirth, and even then, and perfectly practiced, 2 out of every 100 women end up pregnant nonetheless (the ones with the “anomaly” points). Children’s Hospital Boston claims Lactational Amenorrhea is very unreliable as a birth control method after 6 months: youngwomenshealth.org/lam.html
and I have my fully ecological breastfeeding co-sleeping daughter-in-law’s personal experience and a second grandchild to back that fact up, along with her 3rd now on the way.

Nutritional deficiency easily causes amenorrhea in all women, with or without childbirth and breastfeeding being involved, and weight gain and prenatal vitamins are no guarantee that nutritional deficiencies are not present. Weight gain in itself can be an indication of nutritional deficiency. You can easily look it up in any medical textbook you’ve got on hand, or for more information try this citation:
Heinig MJ, Nommsen-Rivers LA, Peerson JM, Dewey KG. Factors related to duration of postpartum amenorrhoea among USA women with prolonged lactation. J Biosoc Sci 1994;26:517–27…
Click to expand...
Nobody was saying that every woman will experience amenorrhea during breastfeeding, only that “typically” a women will, if she ecologically breastfeeds until 6 months.
Indeed malnutrition will lead to amenorrhea in many women breastfeeding or not, but it is not the only reason. Extreme stress can lead to amenorrhea in some women, as breastfeeding MAY also lead to amenorrhea. I was only disagreeing with your last statement that implied one would only experience amenorrhea because of malnutrition.
 
former Catholic, by your logic nutritional deficiency should lead to high rates of infertility in starving, 3rd world countries. But in fact, the opposite is true. From an evolutionary point of view, if large portions of a population were dying out, you would need higher rates of fertility.

I do think many women misunderstant ecological breastfeeding. You have to do all of the steps INCLUDING THE NAP which many women skip. I do most of ecological breastfeeding, but I skip naps often and every once in awhile will have my DH watch the baby for 3-4 hours (if their temperament allows) so that I can go skiing or maybe attend a business meeting. So, even though I do MOST of ecological breastfeeding most of the time (co-sleeping, frequent feedings, no pacifier, etc), I do not rely on it for child spacing. And because I know I violate some of the rules, I do not claim to use it. Many women claim to use it (but don’t always follow the rules) and then when they get pregnant blame eco breastfeeding.
 
former_Catholic said:
If you’re an ecological breastfeeding organic gardening whole foods bread baking earth mother, you’re not going to experience much, if any, delay in your fertility from “ecological breastfeeding” because you will maintain sufficient nutrition to support your fertility.
Click to expand...
Well, then, I’d like to introduce myself as an exception to your rule. :tiphat:

(Okay, so I don’t eat bread – homemade or store bought.)

I only brought up Ecological Breastfeeding because the original poster said she nursed exclusively and it didn’t delay her fertility. 🤷 A mom who exclusively nurses, yet uses pacifiers, spends time away from her baby, has a child who sleeps more than 4 hours at a time, and/or utilizes separate sleeping space (among lots of other things) has the same statistical early return of fertility as a formula feeding mother. Doing any of those things, even once, constitutes “abandoning the method” – Just like breaking the rules of any other method of NFP. Does that mean that a one-time slip could cause fertility to return? No, but one-time slips of using NFP to avoid pregnancy don’t always result in a baby, either.

Let us not forget, in addition to malnourishment, that hormones play a key role in a woman’s fertility. A healthy, well-nourished woman can certainly have a condition where her body does not cycle. The two conditions, where this is most likely to occur and that I am most familiar with, are pregnancy and ecologically nursing. Hormones released during pregnancy and ecological breastfeeding are highly likely to halt a woman’s periods and ovulation, and this is the biological norm. Nursing is an extension of pregnancy, and many of the same hormones are present with both conditions. Do some women continue to have periods while pregnant? Sure. Have women been known to ovulate during pregnancy? Absolutely (it’s incredibly rare, but it has happened). Does this mean that these women were super-nourished, moreso than the rest of the pregnant population? I don’t believe so; I simply think that their hormones weren’t doing what “typical” pregnancy hormones do, and their bodies reflected that.

Ecological Breastfeeding is just as valid as any other form of NFP. Will the method work for every single mother on this Earth? Probably not. But in most cases, it is my belief that when any method of NFP fails, it is usually because the person/couple did not strictly adhere to the laws of any particular method. Are there exceptions to this rule, where people scrupulously follow the rules and manage to have an NFP “failure”? Sure, but I think those cases are rare.
 
First off, I would like to thank everyone for all the advice that has been posted 😃 I appreciate the support, I currently feel like I don’t have hardly any support. DH is frustrated and has no idea how to help me, also 95% of our friends only support ABC (which made me start to think maybe something was wrong with us for using nfp and getting pregnant with our daugther while trying to avoid AND completely follwing all the instruction that we had recieved from the chart expert and our teaching couple).

To clear up a few things, I never claimed to ECO BF our daugther, I was only able to nap with her during the first 2 weeks that my DH was on leave. Other than that my son (who was less than 2) never was on the same napping schedule and I couldn’t leave him unsupervised, that would be a diaster 😉 . She was, however, exclusively BF. She never received any pacifiers or bottles, she co-slept with us (and still does), only recently (within the last 2-3 weeks) started eating any type of food and didn’t leave until she was 4 months old, to finish my last semester of school (other than that she was with me 24/7 in the baby sling). My fertility returned at 8 weeks postpartum. I increased my nursing to dry up the mucus, which didn’t make any difference. 😦 IDK if it makes any difference that she was born at 36 weeks gestation or that she was jaundice and on home phototherapy??? I have multiple friends (in the same situation as I am) who did the exact same thing with BF exclusively and still have not had ANY return of fertility :confused: Which is crazy because we have the same schedule and babies a month apart, but babies were all earlier.

As for my charts before we got pregnant with our daughter, they weren’t any better than my current charts are. I meet with our teaching couple then and sent my charts to the chart expert at headquaters. We followed everything that they told us, although NONE of the 3 signs (cervix, mucus, temp) ever followed any expected pattern (or even correlated), not even for postpartum. We have taken 5 nfp classes(3 normal and 2 postpartum) and read through all the books. We have even read the fertility and nutrition book, CCL art of breastfeeding book, CCL postpartum guide and normal fertility guide and the breastfeeding and natural child spacing book. Nothing that we have tried, has made a difference. I don’t think that it is something that we are doing, since our teaching couple (who is probably sick of hearing from us :p) can’t figure it out either. When my fertility returned this time, we were told that i was not ovulating again, this time I refused to believe it.

I will look into another nfp method, but not convinced that I want to spend more money. We have already spendt approx $250 for classes, books and charts 🤷 Is it really worth it? How much did the other methods cost for learning and getting the materials?
Thanks
 
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