Constantine Invented Christianity Stupid!

[DeusVult09]

Constantine invented Christianity stupid! Or so the argument goes. Lately I have been coming across many misinformed Muslims who seem to think that Constantine invented Christianity, that nobody thought Jesus was divine or believed in the trinity before the council of Nicea in 325 AD and these beliefs were invented distortions by Constantine who wished to creator his own religion infusing pagan doctrines into Christianity distorting what Jesus and the earliest Christians believed who were all Muslims. Obviously such arguments originate in the da vinci code and in the writings of other skeptical writings. But is this correct? Is it supported by any evidence?

The answer is a conclusive no! and we have a lot of evidence to indicate otherwise which I will present to refute this misinformation and present the truth about Nicea’s role within Christianity. This post will be very long but I suggest anybody who wants to know the truth about this read it. I Will cover evidence from the Bible, early non Christian writers and Early church fathers all of which prove the deity of Christ predated Nicea.

What was the council of Nicea?

Now the first problem with this theory is that it ignores why the council of Nicea was called. It was not to invent doctrines but rather define and unify the faith in the face of a new heresy called Arianism. It was founded by Arius in the 3rd century and held that Jesus was a created being, a lesser being not equal to the father and that jesus did not always exist. He was above humanity but a far lesser deity. The prevalence of this new heresy is largely what resulted in the council of Nicea as Christianity became the official religion of the empire, what exactly it was to be defined. So for this reason there was a debate and vote on the deity of Jesus.

Skeptics claim that this vote made Jesus god but this could not be further from the truth. The vote was not on whether or not Jesus was divine but what kind of divinity he had. Skeptics claim that they were dictated to by Constantine to come up with the result that Jesus was fully divine but there is no evidence to back this up. Of the church fathers who participated over 300 voted in favor of Jesus’ full divinity and only 2 against. This is not because of Constantine pushing his weight around but rather the fact that the NT texts supported the orthodox view as well as did the earliest Christian doctrines and the teachings of the apostles. So therefore as doctrine of Jesus’ deity already existed and arianism was a new heresy that went against this the overwhelming majority found in favor of Jesus’ full deity. The early church fathers were far too independent toughened by persecution and martyrdom to give in so easily to a doctrine they didn’t agree with. Keep in mind there was no big organized church at the time. Nicea reasserted both the deity of Christ and the trinity (which had already long existed) and formulated them into the Nicene creed. It did so based on apostolic teachings. Furthermore the council of nicea was not involved in burning bibles as skeptics claim.

Here is the Nicene creed

“We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God of God light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. **Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. **And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

 

[DeusVult09]

The Biblical Evidence Against Constantine’s Invention:

I Intend to prove everything contained in the above Nicene creed including the trinity and Christ’s deity is present in the New testament which was written long before 325 AD.

In 60 AD Paul recited what was considered to be a far earlier Christian hymn by scholars in Philippians 2:5-12

“5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be exploited 7but whom emptied himself , taking the very form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

St Paul wrote in 60 Ad in Colossians 1:15-20 again in what is considered by scholars to be an early pre-Pauline hymn.

“15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”

Paul wrote in 50 AD in Romans 9:5 “Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen”

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

written by the end of the first centuryHebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

St John Wrote around 80-90 AD in John 1:1-15
“1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.”… **14 and the word became flesh and dwelt amongst us **

John 1:18 “18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.”

In John 8:58 Jesus claimed pre-existence when he said "before Abraham was, I Am”

In John 8:23 Jesus said “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.”

In John 20:28 “Thomas answered and said to Jesus my lord and my god. Jesus answered and said to him you have believed because you have seen me, blessed is he who has not seen and believes”

John 10:30-33
30 I and my Father are one.31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John of patmos wrote around 100 AD in Revelation 22:12-16 – "Behold, I am coming quickly … I** am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last**, the beginning and the end …I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things… "

II Peter 2:1 written by the end of the 1st century
“Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness **of our God and Savior Jesus Christ **have received a faith as precious as ours,”

Apart from Christ’s deity we also have the concept of the trinity in the bible.

St Matthew writing around 60 AD wrote in Matthew 28:19.“all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them **in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit **“

Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 13:14“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”

1 Peter 1:1-2 “To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to **Jesus Christ **and sprinkling by his blood”

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 “, yet **for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” **

Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; **one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father **of all who is over all and through all and in all.”

All these texts were written long before Constantine and all affirm the same doctrines as the Nicene creed. And for those who have argued that Constantine invented these texts we even have pre-Constantine papyri from the 2nd and 3rd centuries of a substantial number of them so again this is refuted.

 

[DeusVult09]

The Neutral Testimonies:

Early non-Christian roman and Greek writers also prove these doctrines existed long before Constantine

Pliny the younger a pagan Roman Governor of Bithynia writing to the pagan Roman emperor Trajan in 106 AD wrote

“They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up”

Celsus was a greek philosopher and pagan who wrote in the 2nd century. He was possibly Christianity’s biggest critic and wrote heavily against it and even his writings state that Christians believed Jesus was god and that Jesus claimed to be god. Again this is long before Nicea in the 4th century.

“. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god. ?”

“One who was a God could neither flee nor be led away a prisoner… What great deeds did Jesus perform as God? Did he put his enemies to shame or bring to an end what was designed against him? No calamity happened even to him who condemned him… Why does he not give some manifestation of his divinity, and free himself from this reproach, and take vengeance upon those who insult both him and his Father?"

“let us resume the subject from the beginning, with a larger array of proofs. And I make no new statement, but say what has been long settled. God is good, and beautiful, and blessed, and that in the best and most beautiful degree. But if he come down among men, he must undergo a change, and a change from good to evil, from virtue to vice, from happiness to misery, and from best to worst. Who, then, would make choice of such a change? It is the nature of a mortal, indeed, to undergo change and remoulding, but of an immortal to remain the same and unaltered. God, then, could not admit of such a change.”

“Again, if God, like Jupiter in the comedy, should, on awaking from a lengthened slumber, desire to rescue the human race from evil, why did He send this Spirit of which you speak into one corner (of the earth)? He ought to have breathed it alike into many bodies, and have sent them out into all the world. Now the comic poet, to cause laughter in the theatre, wrote that Jupiter, after awakening, despatched Mercury to the Athenians and Lacedaemonians; but do not you think that you have made the Son of God more ridiculous in sending Him to the Jews?"…

Lucian of samosata a 2nd century greek satirist wrote

"**The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage **who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… It was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers from the moment they are converted and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws”

these are hostile witnesses and even they prove Jesus’ deity wasn’t invented by Constantine.

 

[DeusVult09]

The Early Church fathers:

on jesus’ diety…

early chrurch fathers writing hundreds of years before Nicea Confrim that both the trinity and diety of christ was present in early christianity.Each quote is followed by its date of composition.

Ignatius of Antioch

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides

“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Tatian the Syrian

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito of Sardis

“It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

“Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right **God and Lord **. . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth” (ibid., 3:19:1).

Clement of Alexandria

“The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things” (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

“Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, **he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his **Son” (ibid., 10:110:1).

Tertullian

“The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born” (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

“That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; **not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, **because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord” (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

“Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

Hippolytus

“Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

Hippolytus of Rome

"For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34).

Novatian

"If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God

 

[DeusVult09]

also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God" (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

“There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Arnobius

“‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’” (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).

Lactantius

“He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man” (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]).

“We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . But when we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father” (ibid., 4:28–29).

on the trinity…

The Didache

“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch

“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr

“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch

“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the TB]rinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom**” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus

“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples **the faith in one God, the Father Almighty **. . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.).

 

[DeusVult09]

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which **I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, **and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).

Origen

“For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist” (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

“No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages” (ibid.).

“**For it is the Trinity alone **which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages” (ibid.).

Hippolytus

“The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Novatian

“For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God” (Treatise on the Trinity 11 [A.D. 235]).

** In conclusion: **

all this evidence proves without a shadow of a doubt that nothing was invented by Constantine and everything agreed upon at Nicea already existed in Christianity so there was nothing for Constantine to invent. I challenge all believers in the myth of Constantine’s invention of Christianity whether Muslim, atheist , agnostic or whatever to refute this post and all my evidence.

Bye

 

[eOxy]

Just to help you to have your facts straight

Here is the -]Nicene/-] Nicene-Constantinopolean creed

“We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God of God light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. **Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. **And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father-] and the Son/-], who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

There you are now.

 

[Wesley7]

Ok, you read this information on Christianity and now what? . . .

 

[bridgeforsale]

Constantine invented Christianity stupid! Or so the argument goes. Lately I have been coming across many misinformed Muslims who seem to think that Constantine invented Christianity, that nobody thought Jesus was divine or believed in the trinity before the council of Nicea in 325 AD and these beliefs were invented distortions by Constantine who wished to creator his own religion infusing pagan doctrines into Christianity distorting what Jesus and the earliest Christians believed who were all Muslims. Obviously such arguments originate in the da vinci code and in the writings of other skeptical writings. But is this correct? Is it supported by any evidence?

speaking at least for religious skeptics, I don’t know of anyone who seriously contends Constantine invented Christianity (I’ve never heard of any scholar who says this or even holds it out as a reasonable possibility). I imagine this is a very “fringe” view (held by people who could not have studied the history involved here).

 

[GeorgeSword]

speaking at least for religious skeptics, I don’t know of anyone who seriously contends Constantine invented Christianity (I’ve never heard of any scholar who says this or even holds it out as a reasonable possibility). I imagine this is a very “fringe” view (held by people who could not have studied the history involved here).

Many Protestants seem to believe he invented Catholicism.

 

[plato3]

Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire after the reign of Constantine…he only tolerated it.

 

[bridgeforsale]

Many Protestants seem to believe he invented Catholicism.

I think this is a fringe view among certain protestants – but I could be wrong (frankly I doubt any serious protestant theologian, who gives a darn about intellectual integrity, would say such a thing).

Italy was a hot bed of Christian activity long before Constantine (and moreover by the fourth century the church was already well established). There might be an argument that certain things changed when the CC became the state church of the Roman Empire (so much should be obvious). But the tenor of these arguments is usually ugly, and results from blind zealotry (and a desire to demean, out of a view that they hold the “one true” proper and pure belief system, inherent in religiosity generally speaking).

I’d think if this bogus claim were remotely possible the first people to raise it & enlighten the world would be skeptics (and I’ve never heard guys like Dawkins or Hitchens advocate this theory).

Nonetheless, it’s not true … the end!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I think this is a fringe view among certain protestants – but I could be wrong (frankly I doubt any serious protestant theologian, who gives a darn about intellectual integrity, would say such a thing).

I have heard lay SDA’s and LDS lay persons make this claim of Constantine either inventing Catholicism or interjecting his pagan ways into Catholicism. These claims were made right here in the forums. Now whether or not they got this teaching from their founders or bible instructors who claim to an intellectual historical integrity remains to be seen. But I am an eyewitness to these arguments made against the Catholic church. In fact I have heard them in my own community from JW’s who have introduced Constantines pagan history influenced Catholicism. This view is out there, and it makes an impact upon the lost sheep who get led astray. Believe me the learned protestants who know the truth about Catholic history in Constantines time; are not doing anything to correct these false allegations about Catholicism, in there lays the problem.

My hat goes off to the OP:thumbsup: who makes a very valid presentation to refute this false view that Constantine invented or influenced his pagan ways into Catholic Teachings. If one was not aware of the history of the Church, one can get confused about Constantine, when he moved his capital to Constantinople in the East. Which resulted in the Eastern Catholic Church making Constantine a Saint, whereby the Western (Roman) Catholic Church recognized Constantine as a good man who lifted the persecution of the Catholic Popes and Bishops and making martyrs of Catholic Christians.

When you got the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church making a Pagan Emperor Constantine a Saint? (later baptised) you can see how confusion can occurr when non catholics and uninformed protestants who shoot from the hip in their historical rhetoric against the Popes and the Roman Catholic Church as becoming pagan is false.

Just a perspective

 

[eOxy]

In this case, you should report me to mods, and they should ban me, so the OP can have the point proved with the basis on historical fallacy.

 

[Publisher]

speaking at least for religious skeptics, I don’t know of anyone who seriously contends Constantine invented Christianity (I’ve never heard of any scholar who says this or even holds it out as a reasonable possibility). I imagine this is a very “fringe” view (held by people who could not have studied the history involved here).

It was under Constantine that the largest group of the people called Christians consolidated into a single body which actually held some political power…thus supressing all other Christian groups…edicts were given against all competing theological systems even as far as exile and pain of death…the persecuted became the persecutors.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=eOxy;6064196]In this case, you should report me to mods, and they should ban me, so the OP can have the point proved with the basis on historical fallacy.

I think you should quit while your ahead; you have changed another’s post by changing the topic to a translation of the “Credo” preference and practice. There’s no problem in stating your position here, but to change another posters comments, makes communicating with you here unwelcome. I hope this is not a common practice of yours?

Originally Posted by DeusVult09
Here is the Nicene creed

Quote:
eOXY
Here is the Nicene Nicene-Constantinopolean creed

Question to you eOXY? Can you explain to me and others why your Orthodox Church made the Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine a Saint in your Church community? So that when ever your Saint Constantine is being used to refute the Popes and the Catholic faith in the West, how would you defend your Saint Constantine in the Orthodox Church?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It was under Constantine that the largest group of the people called Christians consolidated into a single body which actually held some political power…thus supressing all other Christian groups…edicts were given against all competing theological systems even as far as exile and pain of death…the persecuted became the persecutors.

Can you name the other Christians groups that Constantine supressed? Iam familiar with the Edict of Milan which freed up Christians from persecution, could you enlighten me with the names of the other Edicts as given to persecute or exile all other Christians or theologies?

To my knowledge the only other Christians became heretics and apostates from the Eastern (Orthodox) Church, where Constantine eventualy moved his capital to the East in Constantinople. If you know of another Christian group or edicts in this time of history, I would be interested in your references;

 

[eOxy]

Question to you eOXY? Can you explain to me and others why your Orthodox Church made the Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine a Saint in your Church

He was baptized at the deathbed, that is an undisputed historical fact.

So that when ever your Saint Constantine is being used to refute the Popes and the Catholic faith in the West, how would you defend your Saint Constantine in the Orthodox Church?

Sorry, I am absolutely not aware of any merit of Constantine regarding the “disputes with the West”, apart from the fact that “Donations of Constantine” are forgery.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=eOxy;6064315]He was baptized at the deathbed, that is an undisputed historical fact.

Sorry, I am absolutely not aware of any merit of Constantine regarding the “disputes with the West”, apart from the fact that “Donations of Constantine” are forgery.

I know same old Orthodoxy do not want anything to do with the western heretics or heresy’s of Protestantism. I asked in Charity, how do you come to making the Baptised at his death bed Roman Emperor Constantine a Saint? Or do you deny in recognizing the Roman Emperor as a Saint?

 

[bridgeforsale]

It was under Constantine that the largest group of the people called Christians consolidated into a single body which actually held some political power…thus supressing all other Christian groups…edicts were given against all competing theological systems even as far as exile and pain of death…the persecuted became the persecutors.

I guess the only fair response I can give is it seems reasonable to believe the church (which grew into the Catholic Church) was fairly unified as early as the second century, with some exceptions. But virtually all protestants today (including those who believe they’re in greater accord with first century Christians as compared to others) wouldn’t agree with the small Christian splinter groups that “actually” existed in the first or second century (such as Gnostics).

Perhaps Quakers are an exception to this, but as far as I know you guys grew out of Wesleyan theology, and while some of your worship rituals or techniques may have unique features, as far as I know you’re hardly Gnostics (however, I’m not well acquainted with the particulars of the Quaker denomination, so if I’m wrong I’m glad to be corrected).

There were a variety of, as the CC describes, “heresies” in the early church. For the most there’s no protestant denomination who has turned back to those long abandoned concepts. The only groups, as I see it, who can find accord with these early Christians, are the few Nestorian churches in Iran, Monophysitism is still kicking (still very much alive in Egyptian and middle eastern Christianity), and Socianism (an offshoot of Arianism) that denies the “lordship” of Jesus (i.e. Jehovah’s Witnesses still adhere to this view, Unitarians also adhered to this view, although its unclear whether they remain “Christian” – or at least by any reasonable definition … since their union with the Universalists they’ve essentially abandoned strict dogma, for instance you’re invited to join if you’re an atheist or Hindu and may expect no compulsion to adopt any particular point of view).

Protestants today are in general accord with most of the doctrines enumerated by the seven Ecumenical Councils (exceptions are the Second Council of Nicea is generally rejected by all protestants, save Anglicans, and many have serious problems with the declaration of Mary as Theotokos, or “God Bearer” by the Council of Ephesus).