Constantine polluted the church?

[AmandaPS]

carol marie:

What I can’t understand is why she’d have a problem with SOME of the so-called pagan, now Christian practices **(like the wafer - she said something about it being round for the sun god?) ** but not others like December 25 being Christmas which was chosen for some other pagan holiday but made into a wonderful Christan holiday where Christ is celebrated.

I wonder if she’s getting some of her information from Jack Chick. That sun god worship though is pretty par for those who claim Constantine created the Catholic Church.

Try to get her to be more specific in her objections. Anti-Catholicism has so many that unless she is, you may be left wondering what exactly it is that she finds objectionable that you’re supposed to be refuting.

 

[Sherlock]

Carol Marie,

From what you say, I wonder if your friend has been reading some Jack Chick tracts–the business about the round wafer being part of “sun god worship” or some such nonsense is classic anti-Catholicism of the type spread by Jack Chick and others. Their claims are often so off-the-wall that they’re almost funny—or would be if people like your friend wouldn’t believe them.

The article “Is Catholicism Pagan?” at Catholic.com might be helpful. Regarding the round wafer, it says: “Hislop and Chick argue that the wafers of Communion are round, just like the wafers of the sun worshippers of Baal. They don’t bother to mention that the wafers used by the same pagans were also ovals, triangles, some with edges folded over, or shaped like leaves or animals, etc. The fact that a wafer is round does not make it immoral or pagan, since even the Jews had wafers and cakes offered in the Old Testament (Gen. 18:1-8, Ex 29:1-2).”

You mentioned that your friend used to be a Catholic: I have noticed that ex-Catholics, for whatever reason, often seem to have a passionate hatred for the Church. It defies my understanding: I was a Protestant for some years before returning Home, but I don’t harbor any ill-will towards the very nice people I met then. I have noticed this to be true of other re-verts and converts as well…

Also, I should point out (regretfully), that most Catholics, especially those of us under 60 or so, have been poorly taught. Most of us don’t know our Faith the way we should—shame on our teachers, but also shame on us, as we have an individual responsibility to learn our Faith. I mention this because it’s quite likely that your friend never knew her Faith to begin with, and so was easy pickings for the kind of anti-Catholicism she has adopted. What she rejected was likely a distorted and malformed understanding of Catholicism.

God bless!

 

[GeorgeCooney]

carol marie:

When I told a friend that I was looking into the Catholic Church because I thought it was the original church Christ founded she said I’ve obviously never read up on Constantine and how he brought all kinds of pagan practices into the church and corrupted it. She said that throughout history there have always been a remnant of Chrisitans - sort of underground but that there is no “pure church” since it was messed up so early on. I am no theologian and she’s going to send me all this info so I can make an informed decision. Did Constantine mess things up? She also said something about how it was all fortold in the book of Revelation which I tried to read but it’s all Greek to me (ha- no pun intended!)

JMJ

First question: Was Jesus lying or in error when He founded His Church on the Rock (petros, Peter) and promised to be with it until the end of time? Was He lying or in error when He said that whatever was bound on earth would be bound in heaven? If Constantine cancelled all of God’s work in founding a Church, how did the protestants find out about this 1200 years later in the early 1500’s? As someone stated above, Constantine was instrumental in the calling of a Church Council (Nicaea), where the Church defined the Divinity of Christ in opposition to the heresy of Arianism. Constantine also was the first Roman emperor to give freedom to the Church and stop the persecutions.

Second question: Why do the protestants claim strict and exclusive loyalty to the Word of God in the Bible, but ignore many of the passages which clearly show their errors?

 

[hermit]

The original “polluter” was Paul, long before Constantine came along.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

hermit:

The original “polluter” was Paul, long before Constantine came along.

Care to explain that?

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[KennySe]

I chose to answer your second post instead of your opening post.
carol marie:

No, she wasn’t specific. She just said that the true faith of the Church was destroyed and all kinds of pagan practices were put into place.

She wasn’t specific because she is standing on sand. And when the wind blows, the sand will be gone.

Here’s the wind. I have it saved with my own title for it
“Pagans copied Christianity”
tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04.html

She said Constantine followed all kinds of pagan advisors and meshed it all together to make everyone happy.

Let us look at the logic of this premise.

The Christian Church, including the one that is in hiding in the capital city of Rome, is then off the “Rome’s Most Hated List” by Constantine. (true.)

[Npow the faniciful imaginative allegation]
And so Constantine meshes paganism into Christianity and the Christians do…

what? *

Where are the Bishops bemoaning this paganization of Christianity?
This is what I call “Show me the historical documentation.”)

The list of Popes from Peter to John Paul II. What did the Pope “pre-Constantine” say when Constantine made Christianity no longer a hunted religion “post-Constantine”?
The Pope ACCEPTS this paganization?

If Constantine rigged the election of the next pope, to be his (Constantine’s) puppet Pope, where are the historical documentaions of the various Bishops throughout the world bemonaing this, that the Christian Church in Rome has been compromised?

Show me the historical documentation.

Don’t show me some anti-Catholic QUACK published a book that says these wild things.

Show me the historical documentation.

Off topic:

Allegation: The Catholic Church added 7 books to the Bible.

rebuttal: What Bible, consisting of Genesis to Revelation (Apocalypse of John) did NOT include those seven books?
What historical canonical list, consisting of Genesis to revelation (Apocalypse of John) did not include those 7 books?

Show me the historical documentation.*

 

[carol_marie]

Hermit, You left us hanging… how is it that Paul was the original “polluter?”

 

[hermit]

Gerry Hunter:

Care to explain that?

Blessings,

Gerry

I’m surprised you need an explanation; the subject of whether Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus or if he preached his own version of the gospel has been debated ad infinitum.

I belong to the school of thought that Paul preached his own version and incorporated many pagan beliefs in order to attract gentile converts.

 

[Fidelis]

hermit:

I
I belong to the school of thought that Paul preached his own version and incorporated many pagan beliefs in order to attract gentile converts.

Such as …?

 

[RNRobert]

boppysbud:

Carol Marie, your’e friend’s use of the term “remnant” and bringing up the Canards about Constantine, lead me to strongly suspect the s/he is a member of the Seventh Day Adventist sect.

They love to bring up lies about Constantine and supposedly “pagan” influences on the church. The SDAs beleive that they and they alone are God’s “one true remnant church”. They also like to spread lies about the church being the “whore of Babylon” and the Pope the “sign of the beast”.

I would take your friend’s advice with a huge fistful of salt.

If you aren’t careful you could find yourself RE-baptised into “prophetesse’s” EG White’s SDA church worshipping on the Jewish sabbath, observing all the Jewish Old Testament laws including being forbidden to eat shrimp or bacon. No more make up for you, no jewelry either.

I almost got suckered into joining them. I read their National Sunday Law (it says the RCC is the Whore of Babylon, and Sunday worship the Mark of the Beast) and sent off for the book they offered that showed which was the ‘true church’ (they hadn’t identified themselves as SDA yet). I received a copy of Ellen White;s The Great Controversy and they had me going until they started talking about William Miller. Miller had predicted the Second Coming in 1843, and when that didn’t pan out, 1844 (some of his followers started the SDA church in 1860). At this point I heard a loud WHOOOSHING sound (their credibility going out the window! :whacky: ) and chucked all both books. Unfortunately it left me with a strong anti-Catholic bias that took me two or three years to overcome…:nope:

 

[hermit]

Fidelis:

Such as …?

Why not do some research? You might learn something.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

hermit:

I’m surprised you need an explanation; the subject of whether Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus or if he preached his own version of the gospel has been debated ad infinitum.

I belong to the school of thought that Paul preached his own version and incorporated many pagan beliefs in order to attract gentile converts.

The words “the subject of whether … or …” in your response leaves me to wonder the basis for the surprise you express. :ehh:

It seems, on the showing of your statement, that you do not belong to a Christian school of thought. St. Paul was an Apostle, and Apostles didn’t do what you suggest St. Paul might have. :yup:

Not only that, but he DIDN’T, and I’ve done my research.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[naprous]

Poor Constantine got a bad rap for a lot of things he never did…

The Donation of Constantine, which supposedly grants sovereignty and most of Western Europe to the pope, is one of these things he didn’t do – but people still bring it up. The document known as the Donation is an 8th-century document crafted by the papal curia in an attempt to gain more power. It was debunked in the fifteenth century by Lorenzo Valla, a great Humanist.

I have often heard the remnant idea from Cathars, including modern ones. It’s an old idea, but not very persuasive!

Naprous

 

[KennySe]

hermit:

I belong to the school of thought that Paul preached his own version and incorporated many pagan beliefs in order to attract gentile converts.

Then your “school of thought” does not believe that the Epistles written by St. Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

And what ARE the books of your school’s Bible?

Does your “school” have a name?

 

[Fidelis]

hermit:

Why not do some research? You might learn something.

In other words, you don’t have any evidence that won’t be ripped to shreds and laughed out of this forum. I suspected as much.

 

[copland]

I used to buy the idea of the Catholic Church invented by Constantine before I studied the Apostolic Fathers such as St. Clement, St. Polycarp, and St. Ignatius. But protestants are never taught hardly anything at all about any Church history that goes back before the reformation. The only early Church they think existed was the one in Acts. They don;t realize that the Early Church has been the Catholic Church.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

copland:

I used to buy the idea of the Catholic Church invented by Constantine before I studied the Apostolic Fathers such as St. Clement, St. Polycarp, and St. Ignatius. But protestants are never taught hardly anything at all about any Church history that goes back before the reformation. The only early Church they think existed was the one in Acts. They don;t realize that the Early Church has been the Catholic Church.

And even at that, extreme Protestants would have to disown that church.

Acts 2:
[41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
[42] And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
[43] And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
[44] And all who believed were together and had all things in common;
[45] and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need.
[46] And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts,
[47] praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

No mention of bible study, but devotion to the apostles’ teaching – what we know as Tradition, and also to the breaking of the bread, the Eucharist. Hardly fits their history pattern. Even what they claim to be the “early church” doesn’t fit the pattern they desire it to have.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Ghosty]

Another important fact is that Constantine and his children were Arian heretics themselves. If Constantine had so much power over the Church, why isn’t the Church Arian today? His children actually persecuted the Church, and yet the Church survived them just like all previous attacks. Instead, the Church flatly rejected Constantine’s theological views.

 

[SCTA-1]

Ghosty:

Another important fact is that Constantine and his children were Arian heretics themselves. If Constantine had so much power over the Church, why isn’t the Church Arian today? His children actually persecuted the Church, and yet the Church survived them just like all previous attacks. Instead, the Church flatly rejected Constantine’s theological views.

If Constantine was an Arian heretic,why did he order all Arian books burned and had Arius exiled? The Eastern church regards him as a Saint.So much for a heretic.Correct me if I’m wrong.Thank you.

 

[DuMaurier]

Arius openly triumphed; but as he went about in parade, the evening before this event was to take place, he expired from a sudden disorder, which Catholics could not help regarding as a judgment of heaven, due to the bishop’s prayers. His death, however, did not stay the plague. Constantine now favoured none but Arians; he was baptized in his last moments by the shifty prelate of Nicomedia; and he bequeathed to his three sons (337) an empire torn by dissensions which his ignorance and weakness had aggravated.
Constantius, who nominally governed the East, was himself the puppet of his empress and the palace-ministers. He obeyed the Eusebian faction; his spiritual director, Valens, Bishop of Mursa, did what in him lay to infect Italy and the West with Arian dogmas.

newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm