Constantine

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Why do my non Catholic friends always start their defense of their faith by pounding on Constantine.
 
Without knowing exactly what they say, it is hard to help you.

So you’ll know, there are lots of reasons that they do this. One of the most common is that they buy into the revisionist history of people, such as the Council of Nicea created the catholic Church and all that.

Ignorance coupled with religion is tough to beat.
 
RickRis said:
Why do my non Catholic friends always start their defense of their faith by pounding on Constantine.
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It’s probably because they were taught that the Catholic Church began with Constantine.
 
RickRis said:
Why do my non Catholic friends always start their defense of their faith by pounding on Constantine.
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**Constantine was one of the greatest emperors and friend of Christianity in history. If it wasn’t for Constantine, Christianity would have never blossomed as it did in the West.

By the way, have your nonCatholic friends also erroneously told you that Constantine was a ‘pope’? **
 
I would love to know the answer to this one as well. I was trying to conduct a simple conversation about the Early Church Fathers with two anti-Catholic friends and they bring up Constantine :confused: I had to make sure that they understood that Constantine was NOT an Early Church Father. They said they knew that but that Constantine spread so much error and Christianity has pagan roots because of him. I then had to make sure that they understodd that I am speaking of the Early Church Fathers who were before Constantine’s time - specifically Polycarp and Irenaeus. I know a little about Constantine from what I’ve read in the Catholic Encyclopedia but not enough to really defend the error that they believe.
 
AttachedToSix said:
I was trying to conduct a simple conversation about the Early Church Fathers with two anti-Catholic friends and they bring up Constantine :confused: I had to make sure that they understood that Constantine was NOT an Early Church Father. They said they knew that but that Constantine spread so much error and Christianity has pagan roots because of him.

Constantine used Christianity to extend his empire, but he was also sympathetic to it. I do not know where they got the idea that he himself spread so much error in the Church since the Church was operating in councils. And did they ever identify the so-called pagan elements inherit within Catholicism?

I then had to make sure that they understood that I am speaking of the Early Church Fathers who were before Constantine’s time - specifically Polycarp and Irenaeus. I know a little about Constantine from what I’ve read in the Catholic Encyclopedia but not enough to really defend the error that they believe.

**As I said, many protestants are under the impression that Constantine ‘created’ doctrine and dogma, and that he was a pope. So much for history class! 🤷 **
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peary said:
Originally Posted by AttachedToSix
I was trying to conduct a simple conversation about the Early Church Fathers with two anti-Catholic friends and they bring up Constantine I had to make sure that they understood that Constantine was NOT an Early Church Father. They said they knew that but that Constantine spread so much error and Christianity has pagan roots because of him.
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I believe a certain amount of this may come from the fact that the church has utilized some aspects of pagan beliefs and some of the Pagan Holidays to teach the True Faith.
Christmas being at the same time as winter soltice is one instance. Many cultures had celebrations at this time and the Church chose this time for the feast of the Nativity.
Halloween, (All Hallows Eve) and All Saints day is another. If I remember right it connects to celtic beliefs re: the dead and spirits. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
As a result, of some things “Pagan” became attached. Feasting, Trick-or-treating, Christmas trees, Mistletoe, and other things have certain pagan connections that some of the reformers took issue with. Usually the Church simply used the “pagan” items as symbols of Faith. Holly became associated with the crown of thorns and the berries with Christ’s blood. Christmas trees symbolized eternal life. The feasting celebrated Love, family and Faith.

This didn’t prevent some reformers from attacking, not only the items themselves, but some of the feastdays and the Church.

Peace
James
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peary said:
Constantine used Christianity to extend his empire, but he was also sympathetic to it. I do not know where they got the idea that he himself spread so much error in the Church since the Church was operating in councils. And did they ever identify the so-called pagan elements inherit within Catholicism?
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So far, what I have gotten from them is the whole Christmas holiday is a pagan thing. They also mention how Constantine took pagan holidays and made them into Christian holidays - therefore they are really rooted in paganism. There are other things too like Church buildings being pagan and kneelers and pews. I’m sure there’s more, this is just what I’ve gotten so far.
 
JRKH said:
I believe a certain amount of this may come from the fact that the church has utilized some aspects of pagan beliefs and some of the Pagan Holidays to teach the True Faith.
Christmas being at the same time as winter soltice is one instance. Many cultures had celebrations at this time and the Church chose this time for the feast of the Nativity.
Halloween, (All Hallows Eve) and All Saints day is another. If I remember right it connects to celtic beliefs re: the dead and spirits. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
As a result, of some things “Pagan” became attached. Feasting, Trick-or-treating, Christmas trees, Mistletoe, and other things have certain pagan connections that some of the reformers took issue with. Usually the Church simply used the “pagan” items as symbols of Faith. Holly became associated with the crown of thorns and the berries with Christ’s blood. Christmas trees symbolized eternal life. The feasting celebrated Love, family and Faith.

This didn’t prevent some reformers from attacking, not only the items themselves, but some of the feastdays and the Church.

Peace
James
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Yes! This is exactly what they keep telling me. No matter how much I refute it, they really want to believe what they think.
 
AttachedToSix said:
There are other things too like Church buildings being pagan and kneelers and pews. I’m sure there’s more, this is just what I’ve gotten so far.
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Pagans invented sitting down? I better stand up.

But wait…pagans have been known on occasion to stand up…

Churches are pagan? Where do these fellas do their preaching the local supermarket?

EDIT: Just realised they can’t do that, pagans shop too.
 
JRKH said:
I believe a certain amount of this may come from the fact that the church has utilized some aspects of pagan beliefs and some of the Pagan Holidays to teach the True Faith.

I totally agree with you. If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em. As St. Paul said, “I am all things to all peoples.” In other words, when in Rome, do what the Romans do. In whatever culture one finds himself, one can always find ‘teachable’ moments in a culture’s ways that can lead that culture to Christ.

Christmas being at the same time as winter soltice is one instance. Many cultures had celebrations at this time and the Church chose this time for the feast of the Nativity.
Halloween, (All Hallows Eve) and All Saints day is another. If I remember right it connects to celtic beliefs re: the dead and spirits. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
As a result, of some things “Pagan” became attached. Feasting, Trick-or-treating, Christmas trees, Mistletoe, and other things have certain pagan connections that some of the reformers took issue with.

**Trick or treat was a Celtic celebration. All Hallow’s Eve actually was the Vigil observance for All Saints Day. The Church had eradicated any pagan tendencies associated with it but, thanks to Protestantism, the celebration of demons was resurrected because of the rejection of honoring the saints. **

**Christmas trees were Teutonic in origin, and was used as a teaching tool by the monks early on to reveal the Nativity of Christ - the star at the top of the tree symbolized the star of Bethlehem; the candles and decorations represented the firmament of the universe (stars, etc.) as everything coalesced under the tree with the Nativity - a custom we have today. **

Kissing under the mistletoe is first found associated with the Greek festival of Saturnalia and later with primitive marriage rites. Later, the eighteenth-century English credited with a certain magical appeal called a kissing ball. At Christmas time a young lady standing under a ball of mistletoe, brightly trimmed with evergreens, ribbons, and ornaments, cannot refuse to be kissed. the custom of exchanging a kiss under the mistletoe can still be found in many European countries as well as in Canada.

Usually the Church simply used the “pagan” items as symbols of Faith. Holly became associated with the crown of thorns and the berries with Christ’s blood. Christmas trees symbolized eternal life. The feasting celebrated Love, family and Faith.

This didn’t prevent some reformers from attacking, not only the items themselves, but some of the feastdays and the Church.

Peace
James
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:amen:
 
RickRis said:
Why do my non Catholic friends always start their defense of their faith by pounding on Constantine.
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Why ask us 🙂 ? We aren’t mind readers. They’re your friends, & they are the ones who should know why they say what they say 😃​

 
AttachedToSix said:
I would love to know the answer to this one as well. I was trying to conduct a simple conversation about the Early Church Fathers with two anti-Catholic friends and they bring up Constantine :confused: I had to make sure that they understood that Constantine was NOT an Early Church Father. They said they knew that but that Constantine spread so much error and Christianity has pagan roots because of him. I then had to make sure that they understodd that I am speaking of the Early Church Fathers who were before Constantine’s time - specifically Polycarp and Irenaeus. I know a little about Constantine from what I’ve read in the Catholic Encyclopedia but not enough to really defend the error that they believe.
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Constantine was never a Catholic Pope. Constantine won his victory over a rivalry to the throne, in the sign of the Cross, and united the eastern western Roman empires under his authority. Because he learned that the Catholics lived by the sign of the cross, Constantine lifted the persecution of the Catholic church under the “Edict of Milan”. The underground Catholic church surfaced and began to collect all her underground teachings and writings and began the course of putting the liturgical books of worship together, to which we call the “Holy Bible”. This era is in the 300’s-400’s a.d. Much took place during this freedom of this open christian practice of the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Constantine, moved his capital from the west “Rome” to the east “Constantinople”, where he built his new city and ruled from there, and left the Pope in Rome to rule the Catholic church.

Because Constantine ruled in the province of the Eastern Catholic church, a pride was established, because Constantine gave favors and advantages to the eastern Catholic church. Thus the Eastern Catholic church looks to Constantine as a Saint, and the Roman Catholic church only looks to Constantine as a good man who lifted the persecution of Christians.

You will find in this era, many eastern saints who acknowledged the Roman Catholic Pope as one with the authority of Peter.

Peace
 
Other’s will correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Constantine ask for the early councils, or at least the first one at Nicea? You know, the ones where the Canon of the Bible was set?
If I recall correctly, Constantine wanted to have a consistant set of books and asked the Church to codify this.
If this is the case, then your fundamentalist friends have a problem. For if Constantine poluuted the Church and we can’t trust the stuff from Constantine’s time on because it is infested with paganism, then how can they trust the Bible which was codified at that time?

Peace
James
 
peary said:
**Constantine was one of the greatest emperors and friend of Christianity in history. If it wasn’t for Constantine, Christianity would have never blossomed as it did in the West. **

**By the way, have your nonCatholic friends also erroneously told you that Constantine was a ‘pope’? **
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There was a Pope Constantine - from 708 to 715.​

Constantine, King & Martyr, is different again - he’s a 10th-century Scottish King. The Nestorian prince of the name is Chinese, & should on no account be confused with any of the 10 Roman & Byzantine Emperors who were among the successors of the fourth-century Christian Emperor - IIRC, Constantine XI (1448-53) is counted as a martyr in some Catholic Rites.

If that’s confusing, there are innumerable Johns 🙂

Whoever influenced Jack Chick to set this story going had probably heard of both the Pope & the Emperor, & mistook them for the same person.

As for Constantine’s effect on the Church - I think he harmed it enormously, no doubt with the best of intentions; as is often the way. The Church is still in the throes of recovering from what it became 😦
 
JRKH said:
Other’s will correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Constantine ask for the early councils, or at least the first one at Nicea? You know, the ones where the Canon of the Bible was set?
If I recall correctly, Constantine wanted to have a consistant set of books and asked the Church to codify this.
If this is the case, then your fundamentalist friends have a problem. For if Constantine poluuted the Church and we can’t trust the stuff from Constantine’s time on because it is infested with paganism, then how can they trust the Bible which was codified at that time?

Peace
James
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None of the 20 canons of Nicea I - which the Emperor did indeed convoke - is, or provides, a list of the canonical books. Here they are:​

 
AttachedToSix said:
Yes! This is exactly what they keep telling me. No matter how much I refute it, they really want to believe what they think.
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What I think is key to this time period, is that Constantine help keep the peace, for the Catholic church to hash out the many heresies and heretics that were infecting the true teachings from the Apostles. Thus we have many councils being held. Secondly Constantine never converted to Christianity due to his High office of Priest over Pagan Rome. Although he did recieve baptism by an Arian Bishop on his death bed.

As far as holidays, Constantine freed up the priests to celebrate Mass on Sunday, which they were already doing since the apostles on the first day. Sunday was also a day for Pagans. Constantine favored the Christians and allowed the Priests to receive donations, and were not restricted to have a civil job. This day was also recognized by Pagan Rome.

I dont find Constantine excercising his authority to influence the Pope and councils to pagan ways. Although in the east, many heresies did arise to which the Catholic church councils settled the matters, not Constantine. Let it be known though that Constantine did have influence on some Bishops in the eastern church, that did not make an impact on such decisions on faith and morals.
 
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