Consummation and the Holy family

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I see. And you say “the Pope”. That means no other Bishop or Presbyter could? Or as we have in our diocese, the Judicial Vicar.

Remember we are talking abou the dissolution of a marriage not an annulment. The pope can grant authority to bishops and they in turn could grant authority to priests.

A conjugal act in the human fashion? What other “fashion” is there between humans?

Yeah, I know it sounds weird but it means in a “normal way”. Other fashions could be what our gay brethren consider consummation.

What about someone younger not Catholic that has had kids and not got married? Is a Catholic free to marry them? If that person isn’t Married?

OK…a non Catholic with children…IF the person was never married (has children out of wedlock) The Catholic could marry that person. If the non Catholic was married and divorced, separated or whatever…the Church considers that person to still be married…so he/she would have to get an annulment before the Catholic could marry him/her.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Saint Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary did not have the Sacrament of Marriage. No one can have a valid Sacrament of Marriage without baptism, and the Sacrament of Baptism had not yet been established.

So they were married under the Old Covenant, under Jewish religious law. And that law held a couple to be married after the betrothal ceremony, prior to consummation, during which time the woman would be considered a betrothed virgin. So under that religious law, consummation was not needed for a valid marriage.

John Paul II: “while it is important for the Church to profess the virginal conception of Jesus, it is no less important to uphold Mary’s marriage to Joseph, because juridically Joseph’s fatherhood depends on it.”

 

[1ke]

I know that. But what about Catholics. Can you also get married and not have intercourse? Like the Holy Family? I always thought getting married was about intercourse and procreation by Catholics. I know she is the perpetual virgin.

Bill

A person who marries has a right to intercourse with their spouse. A couple can agree to forego relations. If either party changes their mind and asks for their marital rights, the other party is obliged to assume the conjugal life.

 

[1ke]

So under that religious law, consummation was not needed for a valid marriage.

Neither is it needed now for a valid marriage.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Neither is it needed now for a valid marriage.

You are right that, in one sense, when consent is given, the couple are validly married – that is why consummation is the marital act, not fornication. But without consummation, the marriage can be annulled. With consent and consummation, the marriage is indissoluble.

A valid marriage is ratified only, after consent and before consummation. After consent and consummation, it is ratified and consummated.

Can. 1061 §1. A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

The fullness of the Sacrament of marriage requires consent and consummation, since marriage is ordered toward procreation.

Consummation is not entirely optional, and as if there were no real difference between ratum tantum and ratum et consummatum. What would marriage be like if most marriages were never consummated? The primary purpose of marriage would be thwarted.

 

[1ke]

But without consummation, the marriage can be annulled.

Actually, no. It can be dissolved, not declared null. An important distinction.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Actually, no. It can be dissolved, not declared null. An important distinction.

Hmm. That is a good point. Agreed.

Interestingly, a valid consummated natural marriage can possibly be dissolved under the Pauline privilege.

 

[1ke]

I see. And you say “the Pope”. That means no other Bishop or Presbyter could? Or as we have in our diocese, the Judicial Vicar.

Correct. An non consummated marriage can be dissolve by the Pope. So the case must go to him.

A conjugal act in the human fashion? What other “fashion” is there between humans?

It means that both parties able to perform the act and consciously and freely engage in the act.

So, for example, if a bride were to get drunk at her reception and pass out in the honeymoon suite followed by her new husband proceeding to penetrate her while unconscious-- that would NOT be an act of consummation.

And before anyone quibbles with me, that is straight the commentary on the code of canon law.

What about someone younger not Catholic that has had kids and not got married? Is a Catholic free to marry them? If that person isn’t Married?

Yes, that has nothing to do with consummation.

 

[billcu1]

Actually, no. It can be dissolved, not declared null. An important distinction.

I see the difference now. But I wonder why the conjugal act in the Holy Family’s case was not followed? After Jesus?

Bill

 

[billcu1]

If a Catholic and a non Baptized person wish to get married it’s not going to be a sacramental marriage. But a natural one. So could the parties if they would like be married by a judge or just fill out the marriage application for a civil marriage? It’s not going to be sacramental anyway.

Bill

 

[Dorothy]

I see the difference now. But I wonder why the conjugal act in the Holy Family’s case was not followed? After Jesus?

Bill

Because that was the way God wanted it. (I don’t mean to sound terse)…Our Blessed Mother is a perpetual Virgin.

 

[1ke]

So could the parties if they would like be married by a judge or just fill out the marriage application for a civil marriage?
Bill

No. If they did so, it would be an invalid attempt at marriage and the Catholic would not be able to receive the sacraments.

If they wanted to be married by someone other than a Catholic priest or deacon (outside Catholic form), they would need to get a dispensation form from their bishop, and then they could validly marry via a civil ceremony.

 

[billcu1]

No. If they did so, it would be an invalid attempt at marriage and the Catholic would not be able to receive the sacraments.

If they wanted to be married by someone other than a Catholic priest or deacon (outside Catholic form), they would need to get a dispensation form from their bishop, and then they could validly marry via a civil ceremony.

So being married by a minister that doesn’t believes in proper baptism would make an invalid marriage too? Say one of these “Jesus name” or “Name of God” ministers that baptize that way? Would a priest or Bishop not dispense with the formalities for one of those ministers? I guess applications and Judges are out. But your not going to have a marriage sacrament either if the non-Catholic party isn’t baptized right?

Bill

 

[davidv]

So being married by a minister that doesn’t believes in proper baptism would make an invalid marriage too? Say one of these “Jesus name” or “Name of God” ministers that baptize that way? Would a priest or Bishop not dispense with the formalities for one of those ministers? I guess applications and Judges are out. But your not going to have a marriage sacrament either if the non-Catholic party isn’t baptized right?

Bill

1. What the minister believes has no bearing on whether a valid marriage occurs.
2. Without dispensation, a Catholic who attempts a civil marriage is not married.

 

[billcu1]

1. What the minister believes has no bearing on whether a valid marriage occurs.
2. Without dispensation, a Catholic who attempts a civil marriage is not married.

Why is it not permitted to have a civil marriage by Judge or another way if the marriage isn’t going to be a Sacrament? I’m not rejecting anything I’m only curious as to why? Does the Church not trust Judges or the parties filing out a marriage application? What can a priest do if one of the parties isn’t baptized?

Bill

 

[davidv]

Why is it not permitted to have a civil marriage by Judge or another way if the marriage isn’t going to be a Sacrament?

A Catholic is under the authority of the Church. The Church has defined the requirements that a Catholic must follow to be validly married. Catholics are expected to enter into sacramental marriages. If they intend to enter into a non-sacramental marriage they must get permission to do so. If the permission is not requested, or is denied, there can be no marriage.

I’m not rejecting anything I’m only curious as to why? Does the Church not trust Judges or the parties filing out a marriage application?

Why do you think it is a matter of trust?

What can a priest do if one of the parties isn’t baptized?

Bill

The priest must inform the couple that they must petition the bishop for a dispensation.

 

[billcu1]

A Catholic is under the authority of the Church. The Church has defined the requirements that a Catholic must follow to be validly married. Catholics are expected to enter into sacramental marriages. If they intend to enter into a non-sacramental marriage they must get permission to do so. If the permission is not requested, or is denied, there can be no marriage.

Why do you think it is a matter of trust?

The priest must inform the couple that they must petition the bishop for a dispensation.

And the bishop will (or can) allow a minister that is protestant and doesn’t believe as the church to marry the individuals; but not a civil Judge? I don’t quite see why? Seems like trust to me? A sacramental marriage I understand needs to be done by the church.

Bill

 

[Dorothy]

billcu1,

It’s all about obedience to the legitimate God-given authority of the Church. There is good reason for all the rules.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[davidv]

And the bishop will (or can) allow a minister that is protestant and doesn’t believe as the church to marry the individuals; but not a civil Judge? I don’t quite see why? Seems like trust to me? A sacramental marriage I understand needs to be done by the church.

Bill

It appears that you are operating under the false understanding that the minister/judge is the marriage official. This is not true. The couple are the officials of a marriage.

1623 According to Latin tradition, the spouses as ministers of Christ’s grace mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the tradition of the Eastern Churches, the priests (bishops or presbyters) are witnesses to the mutual consent given by the spouses,124 but for the validity of the sacrament their blessing is also necessary.125

 

[1ke]

So being married by a minister that doesn’t believes in proper baptism would make an invalid marriage too?

No.

I don’t know how you got that from what I posted. Please explain.

But your not going to have a marriage sacrament either if the non-Catholic party isn’t baptized right?

Bill

You will have a valid natural marriage.