Contact With Baha'is and the Baha'i Faith

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Ok. So I am confused by your question as to whether Jimmy Akin has the authority to “define what constitutes Magisterium”.

That’s like asking, “Does Jimmy Akin have the authority to define what constitutes a gas station?” Sure he does. A gas station is any station that sells gas. And to the degree that what Akin says regarding a gas station being consonant with this definition, he has the authority to define it. 🤷
I guess my question is would Pope Leo agree that his bull was not part of the church magesterium?
 
I guess my question is would Pope Leo agree that his bull was not part of the church magesterium?
You are confusing terms here, smaneck. The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church. It is an entity. A people. A parallel might be to the concept of “faculty”, although, like all parallels, this will fail at some point.

A papal bull has varying degrees of authority, but it is a* product *of the Magisterium. Not “part of the church magisterium”.

Your question is similar to asking, “Would my 4th grade teacher agree that her lesson was not part of the faculty?”
 
You are confusing terms here, smaneck. The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church. It is an entity. A people.

A papal bull has varying degrees of authority, but it is a product of the Magsiterium.
Then it should constitute the kind of document you asked me for.
 
That’s like asking, “Does Jimmy Akin have the authority to define what constitutes a gas station?”
Here we are talking about an institution which supposedly carries some authority which you insists defines the teachings of Christianity. I would therefore expect that it would be the institution which would be defining the extent and nature of that authority not some Jimmy Akin, whoever he is.
 
I read. Sorry, it made no sense to me.
Really?

Here’s the cliff notes: *Ex Surge *was addressing Martin Luther’s writings.

It is not authoritative and declares nothing at all about coercion of non-Christians.
 
Here we are talking about an institution which supposedly carries some authority which you insists defines the teachings of Christianity. I would therefore expect that it would be the institution which would be defining the extent and nature of that authority not some Jimmy Akin, whoever he is.
Certainly. No one here ought to be countermanding this point. 🤷
 
So the church does not regard papal bulls as authoritative?
Some are, some aren’t.

Did you know that there’s an encyclical on Dante Alighieri? Really. :yup:

As a good, devout Catholic I could have gone my entire life without ever knowing what the Magisterial position is on Dante. 🙂

IOW: there’s lots of writings put out by the Magisterium that are not binding on Catholics.
 
Okay where I can I find their decision regarding which papal bulls are considered magesterium and which ones not?
Again, you are confusing the terms.

You are asking, “Which lessons by my 4th grade teacher are considered faculty?”

If you want to know how authoritative a papal bull is, you have to look at the language in which it is written. (Again, see the article by Jimmy Akin. I think you can understand what he is saying there, as it applies to whether something is authoritative or not. The rest of it, which you say you cannot understand, is irrelevant, as it applies to our discussion here.)

Also, you have to know the paradosis, which is the faith given once and for all, to the saints.

A good place to start would be to look at the Catechism.
 
Hello PR and Smaneck 🙂

A bull is an ecclesiastical document promulgated by a pope. The range of subjects it can address is typically quite broad such as: dispensations, excommunications, apostolic constitutions, canonizations. Nevertheless they are very limited, usually in scope, that is they are generally limited to specific ideas in a defined context. Papal bulls are never in themselves solemn definitions. They are part of mutable canon law. However they can quite often contain solemn condemnations of points judged to be detrimental to Catholic truth. Such would be authoritative - even very authoritative - for their time and in relation to the very specific heresy or such addressed, until a subsequent canon law abrogated it unless of course an infallible statement was defined (generally though the church only accepts the Marian dogmas as occassions of singular papal infallibility).

Quite apart from the subject of the authority of the Papal Bull Exsurge Domine itself, we should note what weight the Bull itself grants to the condemned articles from Luther:
“…With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth…”
There is not any solemn definition of dogma here. All it tells us is that the propisition in question, the condemnation of Martin Luther’s sentence about burning heretics being against the will of the Spirit, is among a loose set of other articles whose identity is either ‘heretical’, or ‘scandalous’, or ‘false’, or ‘offensive’ or ‘seductive of simple minds’ and for all of these reasons the pope considers the statements as a whole contrary to sound Catholic truth.

The language does not tell us explicitly whether the propisition in question is “heretical”, “offensive” or simply “seductive of simple minds”. Clearly there are certain propisitions that the pope thought were heretical, others simply capable of wayleading Catholics and some he thought were simply offensive in nature. Obviously what is “offensive to pious ears” is a very specific, time-bound condemnation that has no authority or meaning for us today.

Therefore we can only discern for ourselves what category Leo placed the “burn heretics” condemnation under, using our sound judgement. There is are a few particularly minor condemned propisitions such as, “Ecclesiastical prelates and secular princes would not act badly if they destroyed all of the money bags of beggary”. That is obviously not a matter of doctrine.

Given that it is a single bull, not ratified by any subsequent pope, directed towards a specific person’s writings and quoting sections from them that are deemed either heretical, offensive or such else, its authority is I suppose questionable. It certainly would have been taken seriously in its day, but as for any lasting effect its language is too imprecise. It doesn’t even specify which propositions it considers to be heretical, for example. Such imprecise language is not helpful nor clear enough to be meaningfully authoritative. It rather seems more like an immediate response to an urgent contemporary issue.

Since the pope only has jurisdiction in matters concerning “faith or morals” he cannot tell a secular authority authoritatively how to deal with a religious offense. He can condemn certain things as heresies, however the papacy has never had any authority over criminal jurisdiction. Even in the inquisition people were tried for heresy, condemned and then handed over to the state. The church did not itself execute people because it had no authority to do so. Indeed in the early middle ages, before the Cathar heresy which was viewed by both popes and kings as a threat to the social order, bishops often defended the very heretics they had just condemned.

Evidence leaning towards this assessment can be gleaned from the noble actions of churchmen, such as the Bishop of Orleans who in the 1022 incident, “protected the heretics against the efforts of the mob to lynch them; the burning occurred only after the king capitulated to popular demands” . Moore references four instances – Cambrai 1077, Soissons in 1114, Liege in 1135 and Cologne in 1147 – in which the contemporary records claim that convicted heretics were “burned by the ‘people’ after being found guilty by ecclesiastical tribunals but against the wishes of the clergy” . In summation of such evidence, Kinsman holds that “deep into the twelfth century” there were many clergymen who were attempting to “moderate the vengefulness of laymen towards heretics…[the] roots of the animosity [attacks on heretics] were neither intellectual nor institutionalized: the mob needed scapegoats”.

At various times in her history the church has had different opinions on what the state should do with heretics ranging from not handing them over to the state at all and considering it a purely religious offence which was punished therefore by an ecclesiastical punishment such as penance.

It is a variable thing influenced by the time period and not a doctrine. The doctrinal element only extends to whether something is heretical or not.

Obviously people know nowadays that people should not be punished by a secular court for “heresy”. At times popes supported this contention to, whereas in response to some heresies deemed threats to society they didn’t.

There responses however, some good by our modern standards and some horrid (handing people over to state authorities knowing the state or mob would probably have them burned or executed) is not binding.
 
Hello PR and Smaneck 🙂

A bull is an ecclesiastical document promulgated by a pope. The range of subjects it can address is typically quite broad such as: dispensations, excommunications, apostolic constitutions, canonizations. Nevertheless they are very limited, usually in scope, that is they are generally limited to specific ideas in a defined context. Papal bulls are never in themselves solemn definitions. They are part of mutable canon law. However they can quite often contain solemn condemnations of points judged to be detrimental to Catholic truth. Such would be authoritative - even very authoritative - for their time and in relation to the very specific heresy or such addressed, until a subsequent canon law abrogated it unless of course an infallible statement was defined (generally though the church only accepts the Marian dogmas as occassions of singular papal infallibility).

Quite apart from the subject of the authority of the Papal Bull Exsurge Domine itself, we should note what weight the Bull itself grants to the condemned articles from Luther:

There is not any solemn definition of dogma here. All it tells us is that the propisition in question, the condemnation of Martin Luther’s sentence about burning heretics being against the will of the Spirit, is among a loose set of other articles whose identity is either ‘heretical’, por ‘scandalous’, or ‘false’, or ‘offensive’ or ‘seductive of simple minds’ and for all of these reasons the pope considers the statements as a whole contrary to sound Catholic truth.

The language does not tell us explicitly whether the propisition in question is “heretical”, “offensive” or simply “seductive of simple minds”. Clearly there are certain propisitions that the pope thought were heretical, others simply capable of wayleading Catholics and some he thought were simply offensive in nature. Obviously what is “offensive to pious ears” is a very specific, time-bound condemnation that has no authority or meaning for us today.

Therefore we can only discern for ourselves what category Leo placed the “burn heretics” condemnation under, using our sound judgement. There is are a few particularly minor condemned propisitions such as, “Ecclesiastical prelates and secular princes would not act badly if they destroyed all of the money bags of beggary”. That is obviously not a matter of doctrine.

Given that it is a single bull, not ratified by any subsequent pope, directed towards a specific person’s writings and quoting sections from them that are deemed either heretical, offensive or such else, its authority is I suppose questionable. It certainly would have been taken seriously in its day, but as for any lasting effect its language is too imprecise. It doesn’t even specify which propositions it considers to be heretical, for example. Such imprecise language is not helpful nor clear enough to be meaningfully authoritative. It rather seems more like an immediate response to an urgent contemporary issue.

Since the pope only has jurisdiction in matters concerning “faith or morals” he cannot tell a secular authority authoritatively how to deal with a religious offense. He can condemn certain things as heresies, however the papacy has never had any authority over criminal jurisdiction. Even in the inquisition people were tried for heresy, condemned and then handed over to the state. The church did not itself execute people because it had no authority to do so. Indeed in the early middle ages, before the Cathar heresy which was viewed by both popes and kings as a threat to the social order, bishops often defended the very heretics they had just condemned.

Evidence leaning towards this assessment can be gleaned from the noble actions of churchmen, such as the Bishop of Orleans who in the 1022 incident, “protected the heretics against the efforts of the mob to lynch them; the burning occurred only after the king capitulated to popular demands” . Moore references four instances – Cambrai 1077, Soissons in 1114, Liege in 1135 and Cologne in 1147 – in which the contemporary records claim that convicted heretics were “burned by the ‘people’ after being found guilty by ecclesiastical tribunals but against the wishes of the clergy” . In summation of such evidence, Kinsman holds that “deep into the twelfth century” there were many clergymen who were attempting to “moderate the vengefulness of laymen towards heretics…[the] roots of the animosity [attacks on heretics] were neither intellectual nor institutionalized: the mob needed scapegoats”.

At various times in her history the church has had different opinions on what the state should do with heretics ranging from not handing them over to the state at all and considering it a purely religious offence which was punished therefore by an ecclesiastical punishment such as penance.

It is a variable thing influenced by the time period and not a doctrine. The doctrinal element only extends to whether something is heretical or not.

Obviously people know nowadays that people should not be punished by a secular court for “heresy”. At times popes supported this contention to, whereas in response to some heresies deemed threats to society they didn’t.

There responses however, some good by our modern standards and some horrid (handing people over to state authorities knowing the state or mob would probably have them burned or executed) is not binding.
👍

That is precisely what Jimmy Akin says in the linked article.
 
👍

That is precisely what Jimmy Akin says in the linked article.
I didn’t read the article (I’m not really one for reading apologists) however all I can say to Jimmy then is a big 👍 and that we think alike.

My contention basically is that for something to be authoritative or solemn, doctrinally, it has to first fall under the umbrella of “faith and morals” and secondly it has to be precise. This is especially important when dealing with infallible statements. I believe that one of the documents of Vatican I addressed the issue of precision, although it escapes my mind at the minute.

You can’t have an authoritative statement that is ambiguous, vague or imprecise and the condemnation of the propisitions doesn’t specify which is heretical and which isn’t and so therefore it is impecise which renders it unauthoritative outwith a mere time-bound disciplinary sense.

The “offensive to pious ears” is a case in point. This makes no claim to being doctrinal, since what is “offensive to pious ears” in one period isn’t in another and that isn’t even doctrinal anyway.

I should add also that the documents I referenced were also papal bulls, in fact a single bull that had been ratified as a charter of Jewish rights by nearly every pope since Callixtus II in 1120.

Read:
Sicut Judaeis (the “Constitution for the Jews”) was a papal bull setting out the official position of the papacy regarding the treatment of Jews.

The first bull was issued in about 1120 by Calixtus II and was intended to protect Jews who suffered during the First Crusade, during which over five thousand Jews were slaughtered in Europe. The words “Sicut Judaeis” (“and thus to the Jews”) were first used by Pope Pope Gregory I (590-604) in a letter addressed to the Bishop of Naples. Even then the Pope emphasized that Jews were entitled to “enjoy their lawful liberty.”[1]

The bull was reaffirmed by many popes including Alexander III, Celestine III (1191-1198), Innocent III (1199), Honorius III (1216), Gregory IX (1235), Innocent IV (1246), Alexander IV (1255), Urban IV (1262), Gregory X (1272 & 1274), Nicholas III, Martin IV (1281), Honorius IV (1285-1287), Nicholas IV (1288-92), Clement VI (1348), Urban V (1365), Boniface IX (1389), Martin V (1422), and Nicholas V (1447).[2]

The bull forbade, besides other things, Christians from coercing Jews to convert, or to harm them, or to take their property, or to disturb the celebration of their festivals, or to interfere with their cemeteries, on pain of excommunication
The article in question - “burn heretics” - is a single, condemned propisition in a bull that is not even the pope’s words but a quote from Luther’s writings, and I do not believe it was ratified by any subsequent popes like the bull above, unless Susan could find evidence to the contrary that would make it more authoritative like the above…? 🤷
 
I didn’t read the article (I’m not really one for reading apologists) however all I can say to Jimmy then is a big 👍 and that we think alike.
Reminds me of a story I heard from a famous priest:

There was a husband who did not want to attend this priest’s talk, at his wife’s urging: “He isn’t going to say anything new”, the husband sniffed.

The priest responded, “Yes, and may God help me if I ever say anything new! I try never to say anything new. I just repeat the kerygma, that which was given once for all, to the saints.”

Indeed.
 
Pope Alexander III (papacy length: 1159-1181) is the author of the oldest fully extant version of the bull concerning Jewish rights. Excerpts from the translation of the bull follows:
“[The Jews] ought to suffer no prejudice. We, out of the meekness of Christian piety, and in keeping in the footprints of Our predecessors of happy memory, the Roman Pontiffs Calixtus, Eugene, Alexander, Clement, admit their petition, and We grant them the buckler of Our protection. For We make the law that no Christian compel them, unwilling or refusing, by violence to come to baptism. But, if any one of them should spontaneously, and for the sake of the faith, fly to the Christians, once his choice has become evident, let him be made a Christian without any calumny. Indeed, he is not considered to possess the true faith of Christianity who is not recognized to have come to Christian baptism, not spontaneously, but unwillingly. Too, no Christian ought to presume…to injure their persons, or with violence to take their property, or to change the good customs which they have had until now in whatever region they inhabit. Besides, in the celebration of their own festivities, no one ought disturb them in any way, with clubs or stones, nor ought any one try to require from them or to extort from them services they do not owe, except for those they have been accustomed from times past to perform. …We decree… that no one ought to dare mutilate or diminish a Jewish cemetery, nor, in order to get money, to exhume bodies once they have been buried. If anyone, however, shall attempt, the tenor of this degree once known, to go against it…let him be punished by the vengeance of excommunication, unless he correct his presumption by making equivalent satisfaction”
As you can see Alexander III appeals to already established legal precedent from his predecessors, demonstrating that what he is promulgating is a consistent, authoritative teaching of the magisterium in relation to humane treatment of Jews. It is completely precise also, having the exact same rights codified as in the previous bulls and his successors bulls relating to Jews reproduced the exact same rights.

There is nothing akin to this in Exsurge Domine. Pope Leo X does not appeal to any precedent of a former pope regarding “burning heretics” because there is none, he simply quoting from Martin Luther’s writings. This is because he is dealing with a specific and new “heresy” that he is responding to with urgency and he simply wants to do everything in his power to get people to stop reading Luther’s writings and to get Luther to recant his views.
 
Smaneck are you telling me the bahai faith does not deny Jesus is God? That you accept Jesus Christ as the eternal Logos of God the father who created the world and is due worship? And the reason why I think the idea of eternal creatures is absurd is that it makes God not the source of everything. These eternal Manifestations have existed with since the beginning, so in which way could they possibly reflect the devine If they are not the cause of the divine? If God did not design them with such an intention? To say that your prophet is eternal seems to me to make him equal with God.

Now as for the quran I argue indirectly from several passages that the bahai and the Muslims must consider the Nicene church or one of the churches in the tradition of the Nicene church to be the true Christians.

Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.” S. 3:55

O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, “Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the Disciples, “We are Allah’s helpers!” then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. S. 61:14

Now the implication is clear, there would be a group of followers of Jesus who would prevail to the end of days. Or at least till the time of Muhammad and we msut ask who prevailed? Was it the Heteroousians? Those who said the son is of a different substance than the father? Or was it the Homoouisians who say to this day the son is of the same substance. In fact quranic interpreters have pointed to the Roman empire which was Nicene fully by the fifth century as proof of these prophecies. No such group other than the Nicene Christians prevailed or became prominent. This is a problem for bahai and Muslims. Also a problem for Bahai I might add is the day of resurrection mentioned, since bahai do not believe in a day of resurrection even in the metaphorical sense in which the word resurrection is stripped of its meaning and becomes some inner experience. There will also be a need for eternal manifestations and we will never all experience what the apostles experienced. Though that’s a minor point.

As for me not understanding the quran I think that fits on the Bahai foot, just much as the Islamic foot. You cannot deny the random way in which the quran is composed. It jumps from context to context and you are reliant on the hadith traditions to explain certain things. Like the verse of abrogation, that Allah reveals certain things and then abrogates them with something similar or better. This is in the context according to the traditions of the prophet talking to some Christians who questioned him on the word of God and Muhammad quite frankly did not have an answer and thus we have this verse coming down.

Now Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and liars, but did he demean their inherent value by calling them the worst of all creatures? No he didn’t and even so you must also dismiss Christ for calling men sons of Satan. Now in terms of the verse you have posted it seems you have a contradiction which can only be solved by the above mention of abrogation and Im willing to bet that Surah 98 came later after unsuccessful efforts to convert Jews and Christians. Either way we have a contradiction nd a contradiction cannot be true.

Also in denying that the Christians were ever the worst of all creatures you are denying the quran. This isn’t a rhetorical thing, the context of surah I would argue, because its so short and it actually has a theme to it. Is that Allah has revealed things to Muhammad the Christians have rejected those things and we are the worst of creatures. Now who are the best of creatures according to allah? They are the muslims, not the bahai, not the jews not the Chrisitans, the muslims are the best of all creatures because they have listened to Muhammad. You have a clear teaching of inferiority of people. Not a call to repentance, to be humble as Jesus did to the Pharisees. Jesus did not demean their inherent value by saying they were the worst of all Creatures. Muhammad and Allah did.
 
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