Contemplating Islam

[staffsgt7]

who abrogated it and when ?

You got to be kidding. You don’t even know your own books and Prophet?

Muslims risk apostasy if they deny abrogation in the Koran But maybe not since Muhammed said it was ok to deceive even if it meant to deny him, just as long as they won the war for him.

“None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?” Surah 2: 106

“When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not.” Surah 16:101
There are actually a couple more surahs but I can’t find them.

it your duty to proof my misleading by real proofs and facts instead of mere accusation against me
and it’s your duty to guide me if i was brainwashed

tell me what do you know about Hudaybiyah treaty

Your own Koran proves what I say. I have not met a practicing Muslim yet that likes it when an infidel, or kufar, proves what Islam is all about by quoting their own texts back at them.

So now I got to tell you the history of your own Prophet’s deceptions? Hudaybiyah set the precedent that any treaty made by Muslims thereafter could never be trusted. But most did not know Islamic history. It is basically the beginning of what we know as Hudna.

in my country and in most arab islamic countries christianity and judaism are recognized , and churches are building / repairing

i have many christians friends and nighbours . we don’t hate each other
but i know how you thinking ( offcourse i mislead you again , may be i killed two of them yesterday but i will never confess )

well , show me what you know about history of islam , and let us discuss the real knowlege

This is really hard to believe considering this article: It is a sin to build Christian churches in Egypt (Sept 2009). That page also has some links to other articles about some Churches being destroyed.

Here is a link to a story talking about the persecution going on in Egypt.

I could go on and on with examples to prove that you are only giving lip service to what you think we want to hear, and this *‘show me what you know about the history of islam and let us discuss the real knowledge’ * is just a smokescreen. It would just continue on as we are doing now - you denying it, or acting like you are ignorant of it, and I will be showing you the proof of the happenings.

Do your own web searches, and stop using your ‘halal’ search engine. It is just meant to keep you Muslims in the dark.

 

[elwill]

You got to be kidding. You don’t even know your own books and Prophet?

Muslims risk apostasy if they deny abrogation in the Koran But maybe not since Muhammed said it was ok to deceive even if it meant to deny him, just as long as they won the war for him.

please forgive me my ignorance , i told you before that i study islam from islamic sources not from those who hate islam
but i will try my best to understand your view
please , be patient with me

“None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?” Surah 2: 106

“When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not.” Surah 16:101

There are actually a couple more surahs but I can’t find them.

so , how did you knew from this verse that all peacefull verses were abrogated ?

for me i believe that Qur’an itself could be considered an abrogation of all previous scriptures.
When the Qur’an was revealed, it declared its cancellation of many of the previous ruling details that were suitable for the previous messages because they were limited to certain regions and certain people. For instance, the Torah established that people who wanted to repent from a sin was to end their life as a way of showing total repentance to Allah. When the Qur’an was revealed, it declared that repentance can be achieved without people taking their own life, but rather by doing the following: quitting the evil deed, feeling remorse over it, resolving never to repeat it, and — if the sin involved harming other people — making suitable amends for them.

Your own Koran proves what I say. I have not met a practicing Muslim yet that likes it when an infidel, or kufar, proves what Islam is all about by quoting their own texts back at them.

So now I got to tell you the history of your own Prophet’s deceptions? Hudaybiyah set the precedent that any treaty made by Muslims thereafter could never be trusted. But most did not know Islamic history. It is basically the beginning of what we know as Hudna.

but you said nothing , i wanted from you to tell me the details of this treaty before criticizing it , can you ?

This is really hard to believe considering this article: It is a sin to build Christian churches in Egypt (Sept 2009). That page also has some links to other articles about some Churches being destroyed.

Here is a link to a story talking about the persecution going on in Egypt.

I could go on and on with examples to prove that you are only giving lip service to what you think we want to hear, and this *‘show me what you know about the history of islam and let us discuss the real knowledge’ * is just a smokescreen. It would just continue on as we are doing now - you denying it, or acting like you are ignorant of it, and I will be showing you the proof of the happenings.

Do your own web searches, and stop using your ‘halal’ search engine. It is just meant to keep you Muslims in the dark.

i lives in egypt , do you ever visited it ?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

When the Qur’an was revealed, it declared its cancellation of many of the previous ruling details that were suitable for the previous messages because they were limited to certain regions and certain people.

Actually, Islam is VERY isolated to Arabic culture. Certainly it has appealed to people in the west, but the Arabic influence is still there. I still remember, when I was a Muslim convert, various Muslims attempting to get me to adopt an Arabic name, and another Muslim telling me that Arabic was the language of Paradise (which I’ve heard other Muslims say as well).

Besides this, if you study the hadith sources to find out the background behind various beliefs and traditions, you’ll find them sources to that time period. For example, Muslims lift up their pants up as a sign of humility against the rich of Mecca, who would wear long pants to show off their wealth. Likewise, one of the reasons for growing beards was to counter the “fire-worshipers”…of course, there aren’t too many of those around any way. My point here is that many of the teachings within Islam came from that region and what was going on therein.

In any case, the previous messages were not limited to only certain people or regions - Christ, after all, told His apostles to go and make disciples of all nations in the Great Commission at the end of Matthew’s gospel. That doesn’t sound like someone who wants to keep it in one place.

For instance, the Torah established that people who wanted to repent from a sin was to end their life as a way of showing total repentance to Allah. When the Qur’an was revealed, it declared that repentance can be achieved without people taking their own life, but rather by doing the following: quitting the evil deed, feeling remorse over it, resolving never to repeat it, and — if the sin involved harming other people — making suitable amends for them.

This is not something the Koran invented. There are rabbis who would argue that this was what Judaism taught (in fact you see evidence of this in the Old Testament, such as the repentance of David) and it is precisely what Christianity taught - in fact, that’s the exact Christian teaching behind repentance and confession.

Incidentally, where in the Torah does it say that people who repent should end their life? I don’t recall that any where.

 

[elwill]

Actually, Islam is VERY isolated to Arabic culture. Certainly it has appealed to people in the west, but the Arabic influence is still there. I still remember, when I was a Muslim convert, various Muslims attempting to get me to adopt an Arabic name, and another Muslim telling me that Arabic was the language of Paradise (which I’ve heard other Muslims say as well).

Besides this, if you study the hadith sources to find out the background behind various beliefs and traditions, you’ll find them sources to that time period. For example, Muslims lift up their pants up as a sign of humility against the rich of Mecca, who would wear long pants to show off their wealth. Likewise, one of the reasons for growing beards was to counter the “fire-worshipers”…of course, there aren’t too many of those around any way. **My point here is that many of the teachings within Islam came from that region and what was going on therein. **

In any case, the previous messages were not limited to only certain people or regions - Christ, after all, told His apostles to go and make disciples of all nations in the Great Commission at the end of Matthew’s gospel. That doesn’t sound like someone who wants to keep it in one place.

your point ?
i find it something normal that islam talking about the culture of arabs in that time within it’s teaching

This is not something the Koran invented. There are rabbis who would argue that this was what Judaism taught (in fact you see evidence of this in the Old Testament, such as the repentance of David) and it is precisely what Christianity taught - in fact, that’s the exact Christian teaching behind repentance and confession.

Incidentally, where in the Torah does it say that people who repent should end their life? I don’t recall that any where.

i don’t want to go in details with tradition of judaism , i just declared my point with an example for my understanding to this verse
my purpose was not to discuss the suicide in judaism ,

 

[Sam_777]

What would you say to a person who was contemplating Islam?
I really need some strong advice and hard facts!

Ask that person what things she/he heard about Islam that led her/him to think about it? post them and you will be provided by hard facts from Quran and hadith to judge on it.

P.S., where is your contribution to this thread, you have started it and never posted again???

 

[Sam_777]

and yet there are many westerners who are infatuated by its very public and outward display of piety.

Maybe the public and outward display of sin in the secular world had led them to see Islam that way…

For example during my last visit to a western secular country, there was an ad on the bus stop for two (almost naked) men holding each others in a sexual way, and the ad was warning about HIV.

I wonder shouldn’t that ad in the first place warn about the original sin of paraphilia…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

your point ?

You made this argument:

When the Qur’an was revealed, it declared its cancellation of many of the previous ruling details that were suitable for the previous messages because they were limited to certain regions and certain people.

I made the point that, in fact, Islam is very limited to certain regions and people because of the overemphasis on Arabic and the Arabic culture. The New Testament may have originally been written in Greek, but one does not need to be Greek to be Christian, let alone take up a Greek name. By contrast, Muslim converts are encouraged to take up Arabic names and are told such traditions as the language of Paradise is Arabic. To top all of this off, Muslims every day prostrate and bow towards Mecca, which is in Arabia and is archeologically sourced to Arabic culture and tradition. Islam is therefore very Arabic-centered.

i find it something normal that islam talking about the culture of arabs in that time within it’s teaching

The teachings of Christ are eternal, no matter what place or time you live - this is why Paul speaks of Gentiles who, though not knowing the Law, have the Law in their hearts (Rom 2:14-16). You don’t entirely have to go back to that time period to fully understand what is going on. By contrast, if Muslims grow beards because of their conflict with “fire-worshipers,” and said fire-worshipers don’t exist any more, or there are no Meccan pagans wearing dragging pantlegs, what are the purpose of those traditions? Do they not then become empty traditions? The fact is their sources go back to a certain time period, which again falls back on the flaw in your argumentation that Islam isn’t limited to a certain people or region.

i don’t want to go in details with tradition of judaism , i just declared my point with an example for my understanding to this verse
my purpose was not to discuss the suicide in judaism ,

Nevertheless you brought it up in your argument. If you make such an accusation to support your own faith, you need to be prepared to defend it. So please, quote for me the passage in the Torah that states in order to fulfill repentance you have to kill yourself.

Even if we stay to your original argument, we would still not have much. The Islamic concept of repentance which you described is no different than the Jewish or Christian concept of repentance, therefore Islam has introduced nothing new.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

What would you say to a person who was contemplating Islam?
I really need some strong advice and hard facts!

I would be curious as to why they cannot connect with God through the Christian tradition, assuming they grew up in a Christian culture, that is. Try to find out what their real motivation is.

 

[elwill]

You made this argument:

When the Qur’an was revealed, it declared its cancellation of many of the previous ruling details that were suitable for the previous messages because they were limited to certain regions and certain people.

I made the point that,** in fact, Islam is very limited to certain regions **and people because of the overemphasis on Arabic and the Arabic culture. The New Testament may have originally been written in Greek, but one does not need to be Greek to be Christian, let alone take up a Greek name. By contrast, Muslim converts are encouraged to take up Arabic names and are told such traditions as the language of Paradise is Arabic. To top all of this off, Muslims every day prostrate and bow towards Mecca, which is in Arabia and is archeologically sourced to Arabic culture and tradition. Islam is therefore very Arabic-centered.

in fact your point not compatible with reality
in reality islam exist in all the world , the arabs and nonarabs
not all muslims are arabs nor all of them speak arabic

The teachings of Christ are eternal, no matter what place or time you live - this is why Paul speaks of Gentiles who, though not knowing the Law, have the Law in their hearts (Rom 2:14-16). You don’t entirely have to go back to that time period to fully understand what is going on. By contrast, if Muslims grow beards because of their conflict with “fire-worshipers,” and said fire-worshipers don’t exist any more, or there are no Meccan pagans wearing dragging pantlegs, what are the purpose of those traditions? Do they not then become empty traditions? The fact is their sources go back to a certain time period, which again falls back on the flaw in your argumentation that Islam isn’t limited to a certain people or region.

i’m still don’t understand your point
which kind of teaching you are talking about ? is it growing the bread and wearing dragging pent legs ?

for your information i don’t grow my bread nor do i wear dragging pantlegs . and i consider my self muslim , and muslims consider me muslim and scholars of islam consider me muslim
who told you that it’s necessery for muslims to grow thier bread and wearing dragging pentlegs !!!

Nevertheless you brought it up in your argument. If you make such an accusation to support your own faith, you need to be prepared to defend it. So please, quote for me the passage in the Torah that states in order to fulfill repentance you have to kill yourself.

Even if we stay to your original argument, we would still not have much. The Islamic concept of repentance which you described is no different than the Jewish or Christian concept of repentance, therefore Islam has introduced nothing new.

may be i was wrong in giving this example . afterall , it wasn’t my main aim to talking about judaism , i just talking about my understnading for the verses of ABROGATION to be talking about revelation of quran with reference to previous revelations
and i have no problem if islam add nothing to judaism according to repentence . repentence was mere example for another issue i’m talking about
if you have objections about this example i can give you others if you want , but don’t change my main argument

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

in fact your point not compatible with reality
in reality islam exist in all the world , the arabs and nonarabs
not all muslims are arabs nor all of them speak arabic

You have both missed my point and ignored my argumentation, because I admitted that Muslims were worldwide and that non-Arabs were Muslim. When you ignore what a person says, it is no wonder that it seems to be “not compatible with reality.”

Christianity started in a certain region, and the New Testament was written in Greek, but no Christian is limited to these points. Let me use Orthodoxy as an example: even though the gospels and New Testament were written in Greek, and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was likewise originally written in Greek…there is no requirement to be Greek. An Orthodox, even a Greek Orthodox, isn’t required to adopt a Greek name, and there is no requirement to perform the liturgy in a specific language outside the culture of the locals. For example, the Japanese Orthodox perform their liturgy entirely in Japanese. The Chinese Orthodox do it entirely in Koran. The African Orthodox do it in the language of the local population. Even here, where Orthodoxy is largely an immigrant population, many churches do their liturgy partially in English.

Now please inform me, is there anywhere in the world where, when Muslims begin their daily prostrations and prayers together in the mosque, that they read aloud the Koran in their local language? Are there any mosques where they, as a group, pray entirely in English? Are there any mosques where they pray entirely in French? Are there any mosques in China where they pray entirely in Chinese? Of course not. The focus is entirely on Arabic.

Again, review the faith. Converts regularly adopt or are stressed to adopt Arabic names. There is a belief that Arabic is the language of Paradise. The Koran itself added “Ishmael” to the list of “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” when there is no evidence of this anywhere elsewhere. Ishmael, in fact, is the one stated to have been almost sacrificed by Abraham, not Isaac. Why? Ishmael was the father of the Arabs. And I again note that Muslims everywhere bow towards the Kaba in Mecca - in Arabia. When you take the shahada at conversion you can say it in your local language…but then you have to say it in Arabic.

Again, you cannot deny the heavy influence of Arabic in Islam - in fact, it is dominant.

i’m still don’t understand your point
which kind of teaching you are talking about ? is it growing the bread and wearing dragging pent legs ?

for your information i don’t grow my bread nor do i wear dragging pantlegs . and i consider my self muslim , and muslims consider me muslim and scholars of islam consider me muslim
who told you that it’s necessery for muslims to grow thier bread and wearing dragging pentlegs !!!

Again, I don’t think you are reading much of what I write, because I never said Muslims wear dragging pantlegs - I said they lift their pants up because the Meccan pagans dragged their pantlegs. That is why, upon entering a mosque, the majority of Muslims roll up their pants above their ankles, even though there are obviously no rich Meccan pagans doing that any more.

And if you don’t grow your beard…you disrespect your prophet. And who told me that it’s necessary for Muslims to grow their beards? Mohammad did.

Narrated Nafi’:
Ibn Umar said, The Prophet said, ‘Do the opposite of what the pagans do. Keep the beards and cut the moustaches short.’ Whenever Ibn 'Umar performed the Hajj or 'Umra, he used to hold his beard with his hand and cut whatever moustaches. Ibn Umar used to cut his moustache so short that the whiteness of his skin (above the upper lip) was visible, and he used to cut (the hair) between his moustaches and his beard. [Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 780]

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Cut the moustaches short and leave the beard (as it is).” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 781]

Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow. [Sahih Muslim Book 002, Number 0498]

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and grow beard, and thus act against the fire-worshippers. [Sahih Muslim Book 002, Number 0501; emphasis mine]

'A’isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be npon him) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one’s private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. [Sahih Muslim Book 002, Number 0502; emphasis mine]

Even modern Muslim scholars support the growth of beards. Yusuf Estes, when asked whether or not Muslims had to grow beards, jokingly responded, “No, that’s not true…the women don’t have to grow beards.”

may be i was wrong in giving this example . afterall , it wasn’t my main aim to talking about judaism , i just talking about my understnading for the verses of ABROGATION to be talking about revelation of quran with reference to previous revelations

In that case, before arguing with Christians or Jews on comparative religion, it might be best to fully understand what those religions teach

 

[jakasaki]

You have both missed my point and ignored my argumentation, because I admitted that Muslims were worldwide and that non-Arabs were Muslim. When you ignore what a person says, it is no wonder that it seems to be “not compatible with reality.”

Christianity started in a certain region, and the New Testament was written in Greek, but no Christian is limited to these points. Let me use Orthodoxy as an example: even though the gospels and New Testament were written in Greek, and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was likewise originally written in Greek…there is no requirement to be Greek. An Orthodox, even a Greek Orthodox, isn’t required to adopt a Greek name, and there is no requirement to perform the liturgy in a specific language outside the culture of the locals. For example, the Japanese Orthodox perform their liturgy entirely in Japanese. The Chinese Orthodox do it entirely in Koran. The African Orthodox do it in the language of the local population. Even here, where

Now please inform me, is there anywhere in the world where, when Muslims begin their daily prostrations and prayers together in the mosque, that they read aloud the Koran in their local language? Are there any mosques where they, as a group, pray entirely in English? Are there any mosques where they pray entirely in French? Are there any mosques in China where they pray entirely in Chinese? Of course not. The focus is entirely on Arabic.

Again, review the faith. Converts regularly adopt or are stressed to adopt Arabic names. There is a belief that Arabic is the language of Paradise. The Koran itself added “Ishmael” to the list of “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” when there is no evidence of this anywhere elsewhere. Ishmael, in fact, is the one stated to have been almost sacrificed by Abraham, not Isaac. Why? Ishmael was the father of the Arabs. And I again note that Muslims everywhere bow towards the Kaba in Mecca - in Arabia. When you take the shahada at conversion you can say it in your local language…but then you have to say it in Arabic.

Again, you cannot deny the heavy influence of Arabic in Islam - in fact, it is dominant.

Again, I don’t think you are reading much of what I write, because I never said Muslims wear dragging pantlegs - I said they lift their pants up because the Meccan pagans dragged their pantlegs. That is why, upon entering a mosque, the majority of Muslims roll up their pants above their ankles, even though there are obviously no rich Meccan pagans doing that any more.

And if you don’t grow your beard…you disrespect your prophet. And who told me that it’s necessary for Muslims to grow their beards? Mohammad did.

Narrated Nafi’:
Ibn Umar said, The Prophet said, ‘Do the opposite of what the pagans do. Keep the beards and cut the moustaches short.’ Whenever Ibn 'Umar performed the Hajj or 'Umra, he used to hold his beard with his hand and cut whatever moustaches. Ibn Umar used to cut his moustache so short that the whiteness of his skin (above the upper lip) was visible, and he used to cut (the hair) between his moustaches and his beard. [Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 780]

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Cut the moustaches short and leave the beard (as it is).” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 781]

Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow. [Sahih Muslim Book 002, Number 0498]

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and grow beard, and thus act against the fire-worshippers. [Sahih Muslim Book 002, Number 0501; emphasis mine]

'A’isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be npon him) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one’s private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. [Sahih Muslim Book 002, Number 0502; emphasis mine]

Even modern Muslim scholars support the growth of beards. Yusuf Estes, when asked whether or not Muslims had to grow beards, jokingly responded, “No, that’s not true…the women don’t have to grow beards.”

In that case, before arguing with Christians or Jews on comparative religion, it might be best to fully understand what those religions teach

BW - I looks like you didn’t finish your thought process with the below quote…

Even here, where

Excellent post BW, excellent!!!

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

BW - I looks like you didn’t finish your thought process with the below quote…

Oops. Fixed it. Thanks

 

[jakasaki]

Oops. Fixed it. Thanks

Happy Sunday my dear friend!

 

[elwill]

You have both missed my point and ignored my argumentation, because I admitted that Muslims were worldwide and that non-Arabs were Muslim. When you ignore what a person says, it is no wonder that it seems to be “not compatible with reality.”

first of all , i hope if we based our argument with respect and confidence , i didn’t mean to ignore anything . may be i misunderstand you . my culture , language , religion and my rational is differ than you .
don’t ever make assumptions that i tried to mislead or lie or ignore , i realy do my best to understand your view even before responding to you .

Christianity started in a certain region, and the New Testament was written in Greek, but no Christian is limited to these points. Let me use Orthodoxy as an example: even though the gospels and New Testament were written in Greek, and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was likewise originally written in Greek…there is no requirement to be Greek. An Orthodox, even a Greek Orthodox, isn’t required to adopt a Greek name, and there is no requirement to perform the liturgy in a specific language outside the culture of the locals.

you made excellent comparisons here to describe your point for me , and i really appreciate that , thank you
but let me repeat your words with my religion
massage of mohammed (pbuh) started in a certain region , and the quran was written in arabic , but no muslims is limited to these points . let me use sunni as an example : even though the quran were written in arabic , …there is no requirement to read it in arabic ( except within salah , and i will talk about that later ) . and it isn’t required to adopt a arabic name, and there is no requirement to perform the liturgy in a specific language outside the culture of the locals ( again except with salah ) .

**is your all problem with islam that we perform our salaht with the original language of our revelation ? **

Now please inform me, is there anywhere in the world where, when Muslims begin their daily prostrations and prayers together in the mosque, that they read aloud the Koran in their local language? Are there any mosques where they, as a group, pray entirely in English? Are there any mosques where they pray entirely in French? Are there any mosques in China where they pray entirely in Chinese? Of course not. The focus is entirely on Arabic.

let us recall first that a clear distinction is to be made between prayer, in the sense of supplication (Duaa'), and the prayer in the sense of the service of worship (Salaat), in so far as Duaa’ is concerned – i.e., the prayer in general and outside the formal way of worshiping Allah, the tête-à-tête with the Lord (munajaat)-- nobody has ever raised the slightest objection to the liberty of the individual to address one’s need, one’s petitions to the Lord in any language and in any physical posture one prefers. It is purely personal and private affair and concerns the relations of the individual creature directly with the Creator.
and this is the prayer where you can compare with other religions

The Salaat [prayer], on the contrary, is a collective and public affair, where the needs and requirements of other companions of the congregation are evidently to be taken into consideration. It is pointedly to bring into relief that the Salaat is in principle and preferably to be performed in common along with others (congregation): the Salaat individually and in isolation is only tolerated and never recommended, the preference going to the congregational service. Let us see now more closely the diverse aspects of this collective and public act which is performed in the company of others.

Had Islam been a regional, racial or national religion, one would certainly have employed the current language of the region, of the race, of the nation. But quite different are the requirements of a universal religion, whose members speak hundreds of regional languages – of which each is incomprehensible to all the rest of the human groups – belonging to all the races and inhabitants of all the regions of the earth. Our life today is getting more and more cosmopolitan, and practically every town has Muslims belonging to several linguistic groups, both from among the permanent residents and the travelers in transit, and has to take into consideration the aspect of courtesy and hospitality to strangers. Supposing an Englishman goes to China and knows not a word of its language, and supposing he hears in the street something like “chen chu chih shan”, evidently he would not understand what is meant by that; and if it is the regional translation of the well-known call to prayer, the Allahu Akbar, he would fail to perceive it and would miss the weekly prayer on Friday, or the congregational prayer of the moment.

So a universal religion requires certain basic things to be common to all the faithful. The call to prayer and the formulae to be recited in the act of worship evidently constitute part of such fundamental and basic elements of the practice of the cult.

One cannot neglect the psychological aspect of human beings who have at times petty prejudices of xenophobia. Occasions would arise daily when political (national) or even personal and individual frictions would induce, for instance, an Englishman not to participate in the Salaat led in French or Russian or some other language. Arabic, as the language of the Qur’an and the Hadith, has a respect and a halo in the minds of every Muslim, and one employs it not as the language of the Arabs but as the language of the Prophet Muhammad, the language of the Mothers of the Faithful, the language Allah Himself has chosen for revealing His latest Word for us.

There is another aspect of the question which is no less important. In fact no translation ever replaces the original. There are for instance, **nowadays numerous translations of the Holy Qur’an in English (as also in practically every language of the world), **yet every now and then there are new and unceasing attempts to produce another translation, thinking that the older ones are partly defective. This is true not only of English but of every language of the world, and true also of the translation of any and every work. Should one utilize a defective thing or the perfect one, the translation or the original?

Let us recall in this connection that practically no religion, excepting Islam, possesses today integrally the original of the Revelation on which it is based, the original teaching of its founder: It is the translation, or at best fragments, of which dispose the Christian, Jewish, and other communities. How fortunate the Muslims are that they form an exception, and possess integrally the original text of the Revelation, the Holy Qur’an!

continued

 

[elwill]

Again, review the faith. Converts regularly adopt or are stressed to adopt Arabic names. There is a belief that Arabic is the language of Paradise. The Koran itself added “Ishmael” to the list of “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” when there is no evidence of this anywhere elsewhere. Ishmael, in fact, is the one stated to have been almost sacrificed by Abraham, not Isaac. Why? Ishmael was the father of the Arabs. And I again note that Muslims everywhere bow towards the Kaba in Mecca - in Arabia. When you take the shahada at conversion you can say it in your local language…but then you have to say it in Arabic.

Again, you cannot deny the heavy influence of Arabic in Islam - in fact, it is dominant.

actually , it’s not obligatory for converters to adopt arabic names , they choose to change it by themselfs

and offcourse i don’t deny the influence of arabic in islam .
in that fact i prefere to say : the influence of islam in arabic language
big difference

Again, I don’t think you are reading much of what I write, because I never said Muslims wear dragging pantlegs - I said they lift their pants up because the Meccan pagans dragged their pantlegs. That is why, upon entering a mosque, the majority of Muslims roll up their pants above their ankles, even though there are obviously no rich Meccan pagans doing that any more.

pointless point , let us discuss worthy things please

And if you don’t grow your beard…you disrespect your prophet. And who told me that it’s necessary for Muslims to grow their beards? Mohammad did.

so tell me how this recommendation meant to you that islam limited to specific region or time ?
i think that even in our modern time , anyone can grow his bread in every place in the world , even the priests and the rabbis are growing their beards !

Even modern Muslim scholars support the growth of beards. Yusuf Estes, when asked whether or not Muslims had to grow beards, jokingly responded, “No, that’s not true…the women don’t have to grow beards.”

yes offcourse they support it , i support it
but it’s not requirement of the faith or the religion , it’s just recommended , muslims will be rewarded if they did it but will not punished if they didn’t

In that case, before arguing with Christians or Jews on comparative religion, it might be best to fully understand what those religions teach

okey

 

[jakasaki]

Quote: elwill:

yes offcourse they support it , i support it
but it’s not requirement of the faith or the religion , it’s just recommended , **muslims will be rewarded if they did **it but will not punished if they didn’t

Note above bold:

What rewards does a beard offer?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

you made excellent comparisons here to describe your point for me , and i really appreciate that , thank you
but let me repeat your words with my religion
massage of mohammed (pbuh) started in a certain region , and the quran was written in arabic , but no muslims is limited to these points . let me use sunni as an example : even though the quran were written in arabic , …there is no requirement to read it in arabic ( except within salah , and i will talk about that later ) . and it isn’t required to adopt a arabic name, and there is no requirement to perform the liturgy in a specific language outside the culture of the locals ( again except with salah ) .

**is your all problem with islam that we perform our salaht with the original language of our revelation ? **

I have no problem with preserving a text in it’s original language any more than I would want to preserve Luther’s writings in the original German or Musashi Miyamoto’s in the original Japanese. The difference is how far this Arabic influence goes, and if it goes so far as to say that you perform your salat in that language, then yes, I do have a problem, and you must confess that Arabic therefore has a domineering control on the Islamic faith.

Your long exposition on prayer is all well and good, but I don’t think it addresses the fundamental point: when one becomes part of the umma, or Muslim community, they must embrace Arabic culture to some degree. One cannot deny this in any way, shape or form. Non-Arabs can join Islam if they so please, and can say their prayers in their own language privately, or read the Koran in their local language, but as part of the umma they must surrender to Arabic in one fashion or another.

You also essentially confess many things to me. You confess, for example, that Arabic language has a primacy in Islam, and that this is all part of a “universal religion.” This admits that Islam is rooted in and Arabic and that Arabic is the root of Islam - that’s not a true universal religion, neither is it a sign that Islam isn’t singled out towards a specific culture or language. In fact, it is contradictory to your argument that Islam doesn’t embrace “a regional, racial or national religion,” nor employ “the current language of the region, of the race, of the nation” - in fact you admit that Islam employs Arabic extensively.

You therefore prove my point that while one can hear the same Christian liturgy performed in many languages worldwide with the same theology and meanings, one is limited to Arabic when going to the mosque and praying as a community. This contradicts the very argument that Judaism and Christianity were confined to one people and Islam to all, when Christianity is open to all cultures and Islam filters the various cultures through Arabic.

actually , it’s not obligatory for converters to adopt arabic names , they choose to change it by themselfs

They choose to under encouragement, and if they are told Arabic is the language of Paradise, how could they refuse? Especially since when they go to Mecca they have to prove they are Muslims - one of the easiest way to do this is to adopt a Muslim name, as many converts find out. Many more do so because they have to in order to feel “officially” Muslim.

Again, there is nothing similar in Christianity. An Arab who converts to Christianity can maintain their Arabic name, and are not pressured to lose it.

and offcourse i don’t deny the influence of arabic in islam .
in that fact i prefere to say : the influence of islam in arabic language
big difference

There is a big difference, because my definition does not refer only to the language. I mean the Arabic culture entire, as I referred to earlier in this post.

pointless point , let us discuss worthy things please

Bit of a strange reaction, since I wrote that in response to your misrepresentation of my argument regarding the signs that the understanding of Islam is limited to the culture of Mohammad. Of course it’s “pointless point,” because it was a side thought. Singling it out and acting as if I’m detracting from the argument is borderline quote-mining.

so tell me how this recommendation meant to you that islam limited to specific region or time ?

I thank you for inadvertently admitting that it is correct that Mohammad commanded the growing of beards and that it is indeed requested by him. Backtracking by admitting that it is a “suggestion” nonetheless hides the fact that it is a suggestion by the prophet of Islam. It is also worth noting that Mohammad clearly identifies this as fitrah, or “the original healthy constitution of the nature of humans as created by God.” (source)

yes offcourse they support it , i support it
but it’s not requirement of the faith or the religion , it’s just recommended , muslims will be rewarded if they did it but will not punished if they didn’t

Again, is fitra just “recommended?” I never knew that God’s plan for human nature was debatable.

I must admit I am confused by your line of argumentation: you argue first that Muslims don’t have to grow beards, and even state that scholars agree with your position, and demand angrily to know where I heard that. When I quote various sahih hadith sources and even one popular Muslim scholar on the subject, you suddenly say, “Oh, well, of course scholars support growing a beard…so do I.” Yusuf Estes, incidentally, does not treat growing a beard as “suggestion” - I am not attempting to appeal to Dr. Estes as authority, but making it clear, if you are going to accept him as a source, what he says.

 

[elwill]

I have no problem with preserving a text in it’s original language any more than I would want to preserve Luther’s writings in the original German or Musashi Miyamoto’s in the original Japanese. The difference is how far this Arabic influence goes, and if it goes so far as to say that you perform your salat in that language, then yes, I do have a problem, and you must confess that Arabic therefore has a domineering control on the Islamic faith.

what is the kind of problem you have ?

Your long exposition on prayer is all well and good, but I don’t think it addresses the fundamental point: when one becomes part of the umma, or Muslim community, they must embrace Arabic culture to some degree. One cannot deny this in any way, shape or form. Non-Arabs can join Islam if they so please, and can say their prayers in their own language privately, or read the Koran in their local language, but as part of the umma they must surrender to Arabic in one fashion or another.

yes offcourse , when it come to be part of the ummah , there must be something unite the ummah
that’s why i said that slaht is kind of worship which performed by group with one leader/Imam , this group sometimes arrives to thousands of muslims , so that the languge of prayer must to be unite and must to be in agreement with all . can you suggest any other languge than the original one could be acceptable by the followers of islam !!!

You also essentially confess many things to me. You confess, for example, that Arabic language has a primacy in Islam, and that this is all part of a “universal religion.” This admits that Islam is rooted in and Arabic and that Arabic is the root of Islam - that’s not a true universal religion, neither is it a sign that Islam isn’t singled out towards a specific culture or language. In fact, it is contradictory to your argument that Islam doesn’t embrace “a regional, racial or national religion,” nor employ “the current language of the region, of the race, of the nation” - in fact you admit that Islam employs Arabic extensively.

i really can’t understand your logic , which other languge which should to be root of islam ? it’s the languge of quran and it’s the languge of our prophet and the languge of all of his companions
i’m sure that if aramic languge still alive , and if the aramic gospeles are between your hands , surley the languge of jesus will be rooted within christians as well

You therefore prove my point that while one can hear the same Christian liturgy performed in many languages worldwide with the same theology and meanings, one is limited to Arabic when going to the mosque and praying as a community. This contradicts the very argument that Judaism and Christianity were confined to one people and Islam to all, when Christianity is open to all cultures and Islam filters the various cultures through Arabic.

which kind of prayer are you make comparisons with ?
is it in the sense of supplication (Du`aa’), or in the sense of the service of worship (Salaat) .?

They choose to under encouragement, and if they are told Arabic is the language of Paradise, how could they refuse? Especially since when they go to Mecca they have to prove they are Muslims - one of the easiest way to do this is to adopt a Muslim name, as many converts find out. Many more do so because they have to in order to feel “officially” Muslim.

sorry B.W . sometimes their are some issues i find to be silly to argue about , for me i just care to enter the paradise , but the languge in it dosn’t mattar
or may be you think that if i didn’t learn arabic , then i never get to paradise ?

with regard to traveling to mekkah , i think they recognize the riligion from the name of the religion in passport not from the name of the person

Again, there is nothing similar in Christianity. An Arab who converts to Christianity can maintain their Arabic name, and are not pressured to lose it.

the same in islam

There is a big difference, because my definition does not refer only to the language. I mean the Arabic culture entire, as I referred to earlier in this post.

how is that ? do you refere to growing beard ?
i never knew that something like that was limited to specific region as arabs actually !!!
or may be you mean something else ?

I thank you for inadvertently admitting that it is correct that Mohammad commanded the growing of beards and that it is indeed requested by him. Backtracking by admitting that it is a “suggestion” nonetheless hides the fact that it is a suggestion by the prophet of Islam. It is also worth noting that Mohammad clearly identifies this as fitrah, or “the original healthy constitution of the nature of humans as created by God.” (source)

don’t thank me , i tell you what i believe honestly
but i’m still with my words , it is not something obligatory in islam to grow your beards
fr example it’s obligatory upon a muslim to perform 5 salaht in the day , but the prophet recommended his follower to perform additions slaht as “sunnah” , muslim not obligated to perform these extra requests but whoever performed them will be rewarded

I must admit I am confused by your line of argumentation: you argue first that Muslims don’t have to grow beards, and even state that scholars agree with your position, and demand angrily to know where I heard that. When I quote various sahih hadith sources and even one popular Muslim scholar on the subject, you suddenly say, “Oh, well, of course scholars support growing a beard…so do I.” Yusuf Estes, incidentally, does not treat growing a beard as “suggestion” - I am not attempting to appeal to Dr. Estes as authority, but making it clear, if you are going to accept him as a source, what he says.

it is something good and recommended to grow it , but it’s not one of the requests , basics or pillars of islam

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

what is the kind of problem you have ?

Are you serious? Because…well…I explained why in my that quote. This reminds me of when I wrote a long post of my opinion on a subject, then planten asked why I felt that way about said subject, as if my entire post didn’t exist.

yes offcourse , when it come to be part of the ummah , there must be something unite the ummah

What should unite the umma is their worship of the true God, not a culture or language. Again, to use Christianity as an example, if I walked into a Russian Orthodox church, I could still participate in the services, take communion, and pray with everyone else despite cultural differences. It is because both Greek and Russian are under the same umbrella of Orthodoxy and, more importantly, both worship Christ our Lord and our God.

I’m sorry, but you continually contradict your argument that Islam is not set to a specific people or language when you continually admit that the heart of Islam is Arabic.

can you suggest any other languge than the original one could be acceptable by the followers of islam !!!

Yes. The language of the local people. Why should Allah be disgusted if French Muslims pray in French? Would they do it any less sincerely? The Lord’s Prayer may be written in Greek, but someone from Thailand can say it just as sincerely and passionately if they say it in Thai. Allah should not have a problem hearing the Koran recited in a different language.

Then again, Allah Himself commanded that the Koran be recited in Arabic:

Ubayy b. Ka’b reported that the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said: Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur’an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur’an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur’an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur’an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right. [Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 1789]

Unless Allah’s “commands” are actually “suggestions,” this doesn’t sound like a God who wants to be all-inclusive in regards to local populations. It sounds like a rather pro-Arabic God. God never commanded the Torah to be read in Hebrew or the New Testament in Greek.

i really can’t understand your logic , which other languge which should to be root of islam ? it’s the languge of quran and it’s the languge of our prophet and the languge of all of his companions
i’m sure that if aramic languge still alive , and if the aramic gospeles are between your hands , surley the languge of jesus will be rooted within christians as well

Yes, the Bible is written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, but these are not considered foundations for Christian worship or understanding of God. No one is required to be Greek or Hebrew to become Christian, let alone are they expected to learn it. Again, a faithful Japanese Christian who says the Lord’s Prayer in Japanese is just as justified as a faithful Christian scholar who happens to know it in the original Koine Greek.

Incidentally, Aramaic is still alive, and spoken in many parts of the Middle East. In large numbers? No. But dead? Not at all.

sorry B.W . sometimes their are some issues i find to be silly to argue about , for me i just care to enter the paradise , but the languge in it dosn’t mattar
or may be you think that if i didn’t learn arabic , then i never get to paradise ?

I don’t think that, but it’s clear many Muslims do

The argument is not what language they speak in Paradise, but using this belief within Islam as an example of the heavy Arabic presence in Islam, which again points to the question: is Islam all that inclusive, or is it really pointed towards a single culture?

with regard to traveling to mekkah , i think they recognize the riligion from the name of the religion in passport not from the name of the person

Americans do not put our religion on our passports. In fact, how many nations actually do? If they did, I would truly worry about the priorities of said nation, and why they would care what religion their followers are.

the same in islam

Incorrect, if such a large number of Muslim converts change their names to something Arabic and there exists within Islam such a large crowd of people who regularly encourage converts to pick up Muslim names. Nothing is heard of that is even similar in Christianity.

how is that ? do you refere to growing beard ?
i never knew that something like that was limited to specific region as arabs actually !!!
or may be you mean something else ?

I refer to more than that, obviously, if I use the generic term “Arabic culture,” and have, during the course of my entire post, spoken in regards to Arabic language and thinking. Do not misrepresent my words.

don’t thank me , i tell you what i believe honestly
but i’m still with my words , it is not something obligatory in islam to grow your beards
fr example it’s obligatory upon a muslim to perform 5 salaht in the day , but the prophet recommended his follower to perform additions slaht as “sunnah” , muslim not obligated to perform these extra requests but whoever performed them will be rewarded

You seem to have missed my point in that post, so I’ll ask this question: is a fitrah, or “the original healthy constitution of the nature of humans as created by God,” just a suggestion and not obligatory in the slightest? Furthermore, how can you make the statement that you agree with Yusuf Estes when he would disagree with you?

it is something good and recommended to grow it , but it’s not one of the requests , basics or pillars of islam

There are many things which are not the Five Pillars of Islam, but are still commanded of us or are expected of us. Unless Islam is strictly limited to five regulations. Also, the statements of Mohammad are there, and you cannot deny them.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I made a little model to further illustrate my point, maybe it will get my stance across a bit better.

img21.imageshack.us/img21/2424/religionandcultures.jpg

Both religions can go out into the world, but they treat the world differently. Christianity, from it’s foundation in certain languages, spreads out into the entire world as per Christ’s command at the Great Commission to make disciples of all nations. Islam, on the other hand, filters the world through the lens of Arabic, in particular the Arabic culture of Mohammad’s time. The presence of non-Arab converts does not necessarily denote a universal faith in terms of not singling out any cultures or languages. We must look into the deeper structure of the worship services and traditions.