Contemplating Islam

[Byzantine_Wolf]

actually byzantine wolf, elwill said that the beard is not obligatory-and the main consensus is that it is not obligatory (not fard).

I know that, reread what I was discussing. Also, please read all of what I was saying, and not just focus on the part about beards.

Although there are a few scholars who argue that it is obligatory. The hanafites believe that the beard is wajib while the other muslim groups believe that it is sunnah. (i.e: recommended but not necessary)

Saying that the shaving of the beard is “unlawful” means that keeping it is not obligatory? Furthermore, I have yet to hear an answer about my question regarding the fitrah that Mohammad himself labels it.

 

[Bushmaster78FS]

it’s not required either for the muslims to learn arabic or pray in arabic ( in the sense of prayer which you compare islam with )

One should not lose sight of the fact that in the entire Salaat there are very few passages to recite. There are first the Adhan and Iqamah (call to prayer). Then inside the service of worship there are the formulae Allahu-Akbar, Subhana rabbiyal-'azim, Subhana rabbyal-a`la, the short chapter al-Fatiha, two other short chapters, the Tashahhud, and that is all. The totality does not exceed a page of small size, and most of the words of these texts are commonly understood by the Muslim masses and have penetrated into all the languages of the Muslim countries, so much so that even a child or a beginner learns their meaning without pain and without strain.

Why do they have to be done in Arabic if not required?

 

[seraphime2008]

Very well ~ I have no idea what growing a “beard” has to do with rewards.

Please explain!

I quote you again regarding the beard.

You stated in a statement that:

The question Elwill is simple. You made a statement that muslims will be rewarded for growning a beard… BUT… will not be punished if they didn’t.

I want to know what is the reward(s) for the beard part. th

Cite sources and cite the rewards.

And perhaps I may add: the wearing of hijab or veil for muslim women, I remember some muslim women said it is obligatory, but some other said that there’s no earthy punishment for not wearing it. What is it with Muslim that they contradict
themselves that they have to explain in a great lengthy illogical line to sooth their pride?

 

[elwill]

(Part 1/2)
I have continually made it clear that I am not speaking of believers on a personal level or what they do behind closed doors - I am speaking of the ummah entire. When the Muslim world prays, it prays in Arabic.** When Muslim “culture” is discussed, it is almost entirely in an Arabic context.** Ergo, it centers upon one culture, one language: Arabic. You argue that this is a “universal religion,” but this is only universal in the sense that it filters everything into one context, which I attempted to explain in my earlier diagram comparing Christianity and Islam. Islam transforms cultures to make it universal, rather than the other way around, and does so by using the Arabic culture.

i doubt with this red statement , islam religion is discussed with every language , or may be you refere to some ocncepts as “sobhana allah or alhamdo lellah or allaho akpar and inshaa allah” !!!

by the way , you are talked hear about culture of arabic , i just not sure what do you mean by culture of arabic
to make it simple to you , you can talking with me about culture of english for example

B.W , you can’t say that islam is about culture of arabs , may be it will be more accurate to say culture of islam
their were jews arabs and christians arabs as well , so if you wanna to categorize the entire islam to be culture of arabs so you have to distinguish which kind of arabs , the arabs of phalastine or mekkah or jurdon or christian arabs or jews arabs or pagan arabs…etc .

I have to confess that I am a bit confused by what you are really arguing. You argue on the one hand that Islam isn’t centered on a specific culture, then state that Islam unites the world, and does so through Arabic. These are two conflicting thoughts

what is the meaning of universal ?
from my view , when i say that english is universal language or that the Hollywood movies are universal it means to me that most of people in the world know this language and watching these movies
when i say that michel jackson is universal singer , it will mean that most of the world hear him ( even those who don’t know english)

what is the meaning of universlal religion ? it’s a religion which have followers in almsot every place in the universe

**after all , i have to make simple comparison between your view and mine about performing of salaht****first case ,
** muslims will consist of groups in whole the world , some of them perform it in arabic , others perform it in english , others perform it it italy , etc , and those who perform it in english some of them use the version of yusuf ali and others use the version of shakir and others use the version of his own desire and some others can change the original arabic quran and perform the salaht as leader for muslims with wrong words

second case
all the universe perform salaht , in the same languge , same directions and same form

which case of them look universal to you ?

by the way , isn’t there specific language for the liturgy in catholic mass ?

It is for a specific people - the Muslims. I don’t mean that Muslims are the sole speakers of Arabic, but that Islam uses Arabic exclusively. Again, point to me one mosque that performs their prayers in French or reads the Koranic passages together in Japanese, or anything similar. I am not talking about individual believers.

we consider our salaht to be special conversation with God directly , and we prefere to perform it in the words of God itself , and the words of God itself revealed only in arabic , so that we prefer that our leader in salaht sould perform it in arabic instead of works of men .

In that case, God gave the Muslims an imperfect revelation, and one that is not part of a true universal religion, because in order to know the “original Word” revealed to us and experience the “mystical journey,” one has to know Arabic. By contrast, when someone translates John 1:1 from the original Koine Greek - whether it be into English, Thai, or Swahili - it means the exact same thing, and the Christians reading it in that language can comprehend it’s meaning.

how it differ than any other case , it’s the same with the bible , one have to know aramic to tranlate it to greek , and some hav to know greek to translate it to english and others have to know english to translate the bible into the other languges

i don’t recall any scripture to be revealed in multilanguages , if you consider quran not perfect becuase it was revealed in arabic only , so it’s the same with all other religions , except that all other religion havn’t the original

and if you say that god gave the muslims an imperfect religion , then where is the revelation which God gave to you in the first place ?

Only the King James Only Christians argue that you need a specific text to truly understand the Word of God, but the truth is that God’s word is universal and speaks to us all, no matter what language. Why? God is the author of all languages. That is a universal religion, because it comes from a universal God.

i agree with you

41-44 And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said: Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arabian! Say: It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place.

Seven dialects of Arabic. Again, a command regarding a specific language. Don’t forget what originally got us on this topic:

my dear , this is the command from God to mohammed (pbuh) to teach his people the quran in 7 dialect , it’s not the mission of the preophet to translate the words of God , his mission was to transmit the words of God as it is , beside the people of prophet are arabs , what is the languge you suggesting for arab prophet to recite quran with for arabs

B.W , this command is from God to his prophet (pbuh)

 

[elwill]

When the Qur’an was revealed, it declared its cancellation of many of the previous ruling details that were suitable for the previous messages because they were limited to certain regions and certain people. [emphasis mine]

yes , that’s right . but what is your point ?

I’ve shown that Gabriel commanded the Koran to be recited in various dialects of Arabic, which you confess as well. You’ve also admitted that the Islamic faith has signs of the original Arabic culture of that time. It doesn’t seem that when the Koran was revealed that it wasn’t “limited to certain regions and certain people” - it seemed to be fine-tuned and marketed to the Arabs.

should i apologize becuase god didn’t revealed his words in english and other languges to his arab prophet ?

Then how do they know the “original Word” of Allah, and experience the “mystical journey” you mentioned earlier? After all, you admitted that “any translation would be a human work and human word” that can “scarcely serve the purpose” of the “mystical journey.” Why would a Muslim convert want to miss out?

as you said , it’s “mystical journy” , so you can ask those muslims who don’t know arabic how they feel within thier arabic salaht .

I never used the word “imposed,” but Muslim converts are encouraged to do so at a level that can be considered peer pressure. I experienced this firsthand with my conversion, and I knew other converts personally who did as well. I even had Muslim coworkers telling me I should pick a Muslim name, and Muslims I hardly knew trying to give me websites to pick one.

well , you can say to your coworker that it’s okey to keep his name

They opposed the Arabic pagan culture of that time, but the Arabic culture is well present in Islam. Otherwise, they would not have added Ishmael into the list of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Ishmael would not figure so prominently.

do you know how many times quran talked about Issac and jacob and moses and in which mannar and respect !! , they are mentioned even more than Ismael himself

 

[Bushmaster78FS]

by the way , isn’t there specific language for the liturgy in catholic mass ?

No language requirement. For the authenticity I love to attend liturgy that is in Greek, however both RCC and EO have their liturgies, all in English, or any other language desired.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

(Part 1/2)

i doubt with this red statement , islam religion is discussed with every language , or may be you refere to some ocncepts as “sobhana allah or alhamdo lellah or allaho akpar and inshaa allah” !!!

First off, calm down. There is no reward on CAF for using the most exclamation marks, neither does using the most punctuation make your argument any more right.

Now, I will repeat what I seem to have repeated many times already: I am not discussing what an individual Muslim might speak or individually pray him, but what the backbone of that faith is, and what the ummah prays together with as a religion entire - this is Arabic. It is the essence of the faith and its worship that I am speaking of, and what its worship methods are for the entire community. I don’t know how much more clear I can make this, I am pretty certain everyone else on the forum can understand my point.

their were jews arabs and christians arabs as well , so if you wanna to categorize the entire islam to be culture of arabs so you have to distinguish which kind of arabs , the arabs of phalastine or mekkah or jurdon or christian arabs or jews arabs or pagan arabs…etc .

I’ve made it clear that this wasn’t what I was speaking about. I stated that not all Arabs are Muslims, and I stated that there are non-Arab Muslims. To go off on this tangent is simply nonsensical. Again, I wonder if there is a language barrier or if you are simply feigning ignorance.

what is the meaning of universal ?
from my view , when i say…which case of them look universal to you ?

Again, you do not seem to be grasping my point. I’m not talking about individual believers and what language they speak at home or read the Koran in their past time, I’m speaking about Islam entire and its very essence as a community and, more importantly, as the ummah. A universal religion is one that speaks to the hearts of all men and allows them to speak to God from their heart, no matter what language and culture. God did not create Arabic only, He was the author of all languages. It makes sense, then, that all languages could be served to spread His word.

After all, at Pentecost, when the Apostles spoke, they spoke the language of all men, and all men present could understand them in their own languages. This was a gift granted by God to the apostles so that they may spread His Word - He didn’t limit them to one specific language.

by the way , isn’t there specific language for the liturgy in catholic mass ?

I’m not Roman Catholic, therefore that is of no consequence to me. However, as Bushmaster pointed out, the services are often done partially or entirely in the local language. In fact, I brought this up earlier in this argument. I mentioned that Japanese Orthodox services do the liturgy in Japanese, African Orthodox do the liturgy in various local languages, etc etc etc.

With all due respect, are you truly reading my arguments?

we consider our salaht to be special conversation with God directly , and we prefere to perform it in the words of God itself , and the words of God itself revealed only in arabic , so that we prefer that our leader in salaht sould perform it in arabic instead of works of men . [emphasis mine]

I thank you AGAIN for confessing that Islam is centered on a specific people, language and culture by declaring Arabic to be the words of God. It seems I do not have to argue here because you prove my point over and over.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

(Part 2/2)

how it differ than any other case , it’s the same with the bible , one have to know aramic to tranlate it to greek , and some hav to know greek to translate it to english and others have to know english to translate the bible into the other languges

To further study the grammar and exegesis, yes, but it is not a requirement. This is not part of a follower’s “mystical journey,” and we do not consider Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew any kind of “language of God.” That is my point: there is no importance on the language other than the fact that it is the original language. A person is not required to know that language to reach some higher level - otherwise, God would have limited Himself.

i don’t recall any scripture to be revealed in multilanguages , if you consider quran not perfect becuase it was revealed in arabic only , so it’s the same with all other religions , except that all other religion havn’t the original

Argument based on presupposition. No where is it required for scripture to be revealed in one language. And again, the issue is not the language itself, but the importance placed on that language. I don’t know how many times I have to explain this.

yes , that’s right . but what is your point ?

Stop quote-mining. I answered that question in the next quote-block. If you are going to enter debate, do so honestly.

should i apologize becuase god didn’t revealed his words in english and other languges to his arab prophet ?

You are avoiding giving any real answer. As I said several times before, the issue is not what the original language and culture means, the issue is what the emphasis on that language and culture is. Again, if you are going to argue Islam isn’t “limited to certain regions and certain people,” you can’t argue that Islam unites the world through Arabic or that in order to hear the word of God a Muslim has to know Arabic - that is an inconsistent argument.

as you said , it’s “mystical journy” , so you can ask those muslims who don’t know arabic how they feel within thier arabic salaht .

I did not say it was a “mystical journey.” Those were your own words, and I was quoting them. You essentially contradicted yourself. You said it isn’t mandatory for a Muslim convert to know Arabic, then in the same post stated that in order to truly know God and experience their “mystical journey” they had to know Arabic. If a King James Only Christian states that you can’t save with anything other than the KJV, then obviously a person has to know English in order to be saved (some KJV-Only Christians, in fact, have confessed this). The difference is that while the KJV-Only Christians are seen as an extreme sect, such statements as what you made regarding Muslim converts and their journey to God appear to be standard in Islam.

Which, again, calls into question whether Islam is truly “universal” in the sense that it brings men of all cultures together, or if it merely filters those men through the culture of Arabic.

well , you can say to your coworker that it’s okey to keep his name

I’m a Christian now, so it is of no consequence. Why? Because no such pressure to change names exists in Christianity. Even when I started attending Greek Orthodox services, I never once had anyone tell me I should change my name to something Greek.

do you know how many times quran talked about Issac and jacob and moses and in which mannar and respect !! , they are mentioned even more than Ismael himself

That is of no consequence when they change the wording that has existed for almost 5000 years or so. God was always the God of “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” not “Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael and Jacob.” This combination doesn’t come along until the advent of Islam. This doesn’t touch on the fact that Islam uses Ishmael much much more than is true to the original story of Abraham’s life. Why? Because the Arabs are the descendants of the Ishmaelites, and because, as I pointed out before, Islam seemed to have been marketed towards them.

By the by, you’re still avoiding this question so I’m bringing it up again:

***Is a fitrah, or “the original healthy constitution of the nature of humans as created by God,” just a suggestion and not obligatory in the slightest? Mohammad declared the growing of beards to be a fitrah, and it seems painfully clear by the definition of the teaching that it’s more than a “suggestion.” ***

 

[dzheremi]

Boy oh boy, what a turn this thread has taken!

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Islam is Arab imperialism. It’s not ONLY that, but that is a presupposition of it, for sure. And spare us all the quoting of Muhammad’s last sermon where he supposedly said that an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab. It is held by Muslims that “ALLAH” is the PROPER NAME of God! And not “proper” in the sense of being in keeping with morality or custom or anything like that, but the proper name in the way that David or Janet or Charbel are proper names. How does this not qualify as Arab imperialism, when you say that God’s name is “Allah”?* Is it just a coincidence that this happens to be the Arabic term for “God”? (or at least it is among Christian Arabs; for Muslims it is apparently something else)

Face the facts: Islam took the concept of a universal God and a universal religion and shrank it down to fit Muhammad’s time and his people, and every people that were converted to his religion have been forced, by the internal structure of the religion itself, to adopt the Muslim mindset that says that God is not “I AM” (as He Himself says He is in the Bible), but “Allah”, and that Arabic is God’s language, as recorded in His recitation, which is of course in Arabic as well, so that the people that it was intended for (Arabs) would understand it and believe it.

*A side note: Someone asked an American convert Muslim here why she calls God “Allah” when that is not a proper name, and she responded by quoting the Qur’an in the original Arabic: “Qul huwa Allah!” (say he is “Allah”)

Once again: Islam is Arab imperialism, at its very core!

For interested parties on all sides, I suggest a read through Anwar Sheikh’s 1998 treatise “ISLAM: The Arab imperialism”

 

[elwill]

(Part 1/2)
Now, I will repeat what I seem to have repeated many times already: I am not discussing what an individual Muslim might speak or individually pray him, but what the backbone of that faith is, and what the ummah prays together with as a religion entire - this is Arabic. It is the essence of the faith and its worship that I am speaking of, and what its worship methods are for the entire community. I don’t know how much more clear I can make this, I am pretty certain everyone else on the forum can understand my point.

yes i realize that your problem is with the arabic language to be official languge of our religion , and that using this languge in our worship does mean for you that the religion isn’t universal , right ?

but for me , It is a remarkable phenomenon that many religions of the world, or major branches of them, hold on to a language as dear to them. We cannot think of the Jewish religion without Hebrew. Islam holds Arabic as sacred to the Qur’an. Classical Hinduism considers Sanskrit its official language. Buddhism has its sacred texts in Pali.

The Roman Rite has Latin as its official language. The typical editions of its liturgical books are to this day issued in Latin.

most of people welcome the Mass celebrated sometimes in Latin. while they no nothing in latin .

The Council also required that seminarians “should acquire a command of Latin which will enable them to understand and use the source material of so many sciences and the documents of the Church as well” (Optatam Totius, n. 13).

in the end i will quote to you the openion of christians themselfs regarding to the importance of using latin languge in their public prayer

The translation of liturgical texts from the Latin original to the various vernaculars is a very important consideration in the prayer life of the Church. It is a question, not of private prayer, but of the public prayer offered by holy Mother Church,with Christ as the Head.
The Latin texts have been prepared with great care as to sound doctrine, exact wording “free from all ideological influence and otherwise endowed with those qualities by which the sacred mysteries of salvation and the indefectible faith of the Church are efficaciously transmitted by means of human language to prayer, and worthy worship is offered to God the Most High” (Liturgiam Authenticam, n. 3).

I thank you AGAIN for confessing that Islam is centered on a specific people, language and culture by declaring Arabic to be the words of God. It seems I do not have to argue here because you prove my point over and over.

yes , offcourse i confess that God revealed his words to mohammed in the arabic langage , as i’m sure either that when God spoke to mosas he used only the hebrew languge
are you know any religion have origanl sacred books revealed to the same prophet in two languges ?

you believe that jesus is God himself , right ?
how many languges did he used in his discusions with his people ? did he ever spoke arabic to them ? if he didn’t , is that means that he didn’t knew it , or sound of logic will say that he used only the languge of his people so that they can understand him !!!

this is what happend with islam , the prophet is from arabs , his people speaks arabic , so that the words of God to him was in arabic language
whatever , arabs themselfs starts to translate the arabic words of God to other languges , these translations is just translation for the words of God and not the words of God himself .
it dosn’t mean that God didn’t know but arabic , but it happened that he choose this languge and choose this prophet for this last massage

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

but for me , It is a remarkable phenomenon that many religions of the world, or major branches of them, hold on to a language as dear to them. We cannot think of the Jewish religion without Hebrew. Islam holds Arabic as sacred to the Qur’an. Classical Hinduism considers Sanskrit its official language. Buddhism has its sacred texts in Pali.

The Roman Rite has Latin as its official language. The typical editions of its liturgical books are to this day issued in Latin.

This is all irrelevant to the matter at hand, as I already said I am not Roman Catholic - neither am I Hindu, Jewish, or Buddhist. It’s also a non-sequitor, as if to say, “Well other religions have an official language, so we can too!” It doesn’t help your original case. It’s also a hasty generalization - you cannot quote the opinion of a Roman Catholic document and declare it to be the opinion of all Christians - Protestants and Orthodox would have something to say about that. In fact, it is misrepresenting Christian opinion.

As for the rest of your post (which practically ignores most of my responses in my previous posts), I reiterate for perhaps the fifth time now that I am not attacking the presence of a different language in a religion, let alone that the original documents are in a different or specific language. It is no matter to me that Mohammad spoke the Koran in Arabic any more than Moses spoke the original Torah in Hebrew. What matters to me is the importance on the language and what that means for the faithful. That is the point I am trying to make, and it is this point that is being danced around.

The fact remains that you argued this:

When the Qur’an was revealed, it declared its cancellation of many of the previous ruling details that were suitable for the previous messages because they were limited to certain regions and certain people.

In the course of this debate you have made these statements:

can you suggest any other languge than the original one [Arabic] could be acceptable by the followers of islam !!!

The journey unto the Lord is of course the ultimate goal that every soul aspires to reach. The original Word has been revealed in Arabic: any translation would be a human work and human word, and this can scarcely serve the purpose of this mystical journey.

we consider our salaht to be special conversation with God directly , and we prefere to perform it in the words of God itself , and the words of God itself revealed only in arabic , so that we prefer that our leader in salaht sould perform it in arabic instead of works of men .

arabs themselfs starts to translate the arabic words of God to other languges , these translations is just translation for the words of God and not the words of God himself .

It seems painfully clear that Islam is therefore limited to a certain people and regions: Arabic and Arabia. I put this together with the fact that much of Islam’s teachings stem from the Arabia of that time period (which you’ve admitted) and the fact that much of Islamic culture (dress, phrases, architecture, etc) is synonymous with Arabic culture. You can continue to argue that there are non-Arabic Muslims, but even Judaism (which you’ve argued is similar to this case) has members who are not ethnic Jews (a good friend of mine recently converted to Judaism, and she hasn’t any Semitic blood in her). Distracting to Judaism, however, does not hide the inherent cultural specification found in Islam. It is not a true universal religion because, as I argued before, it filters everything through Arabic. Yes, it is limited to a specific region and people - now those people have gone out and attempted to mold the world to their method of understanding with the culture of the region.

Incidentally, you’re blatantly avoiding this question, so I’m giving it yet again:

***Is a fitrah, or “the original healthy constitution of the nature of humans as created by God,” just a suggestion and not obligatory in the slightest? Mohammad declared the growing of beards to be a fitrah, and it seems painfully clear by the definition of the teaching that it’s more than a “suggestion.” ***

 

[dzheremi]

Comparisons to the Latin rite would be inappropriate even if BW were a Roman Catholic. Heck, I am a RC and I’m not buying this BS. The use of Latin within the Roman rite is a matter of historical tradition and fidelity to it on the part of those who maintain it (in the so-called “Extraordinary Form” of the Mass), not of theological consequence (“filioque” dispute notwithstanding… ) and certainly not necessary to embrace in order to be Catholic. In fact, quite the opposite is regularly spearheaded by those in the Eastern Catholic Churches who recognize the need to “de-latinize” their liturgies, thereby consciously discarding what pretty much everybody now recognizes were harmful and extremely misguided attempts to institute a false uniformity across the Church. The modern RCC supports this effort.

Tell me, then…if it is all the same as in Islam…which part of Islam can I look to for “de-Arabization”? Is there anyone to support such an idea? I don’t think so!

 

[seraphime2008]

yes i realize that your problem is with the arabic language to be official languge of our religion , and that using this languge in our worship does mean for you that the religion isn’t universal , right ?

but for me , It is a remarkable phenomenon that many religions of the world, or major branches of them, hold on to a language as dear to them. We cannot think of the Jewish religion without Hebrew. Islam holds Arabic as sacred to the Qur’an. Classical Hinduism considers Sanskrit its official language. Buddhism has its sacred texts in Pali.

The Roman Rite has Latin as its official language. The typical editions of its liturgical books are to this day issued in Latin.

most of people welcome the Mass celebrated sometimes in Latin. while they no nothing in latin .

The Council also required that seminarians “should acquire a command of Latin which will enable them to understand and use the source material of so many sciences and the documents of the Church as well” (Optatam Totius, n. 13).

in the end i will quote to you the openion of christians themselfs regarding to the importance of using latin languge in their public prayer

The translation of liturgical texts from the Latin original to the various vernaculars is a very important consideration in the prayer life of the Church. It is a question, not of private prayer, but of the public prayer offered by holy Mother Church,with Christ as the Head.
The Latin texts have been prepared with great care as to sound doctrine, exact wording “free from all ideological influence and otherwise endowed with those qualities by which the sacred mysteries of salvation and the indefectible faith of the Church are efficaciously transmitted by means of human language to prayer, and worthy worship is offered to God the Most High” (Liturgiam Authenticam, n. 3).

yes , offcourse i confess that God revealed his words to mohammed in the arabic langage , as i’m sure either that when God spoke to mosas he used only the hebrew languge
are you know any religion have origanl sacred books revealed to the same prophet in two languges ?

you believe that jesus is God himself , right ?
how many languges did he used in his discusions with his people ? did he ever spoke arabic to them ? if he didn’t , is that means that he didn’t knew it , or sound of logic will say that he used only the languge of his people so that they can understand him !!!

this is what happend with islam , the prophet is from arabs , his people speaks arabic , so that the words of God to him was in arabic language
whatever , arabs themselfs starts to translate the arabic words of God to other languges , these translations is just translation for the words of God and not the words of God himself .
it dosn’t mean that God didn’t know but arabic , but it happened that he choose this languge and choose this prophet for this last massage

:banghead: :whacky: :yawn:

 

[dzheremi]

Hahaha. I missed the part where he said “most know nothing in Latin”. What are all those people at Latin mass reading in their missals, then? It’s not comic books, I’ll tell you that much! I would guess that even the average O.F.-going Catholic probably has working knowledge of the Latin used in popular hymns and prayers…sayyyy, a bit like the average (non-Arab) Muslim’s knowledge of Arabic!

Crucem sanctam subiit, qui infernum confregit…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

In addition to my last post, something else I don’t think I’ve received an answer for: if you believe there’s a reward for growing a beard, why don’t you grow one?

 

[seraphime2008]

In addition to my last post, something else I don’t think I’ve received an answer for: if you believe there’s a reward for growing a beard, why don’t you grow one?

He…he…perhaps with beards, u’ll be easily recognized by Muhammad whre as when u dont grow one, u have to speak Arabic to him to be recognized.

 

[tomarin]

Once again: Islam is Arab imperialism, at its very core!

Utter nonsense. You might as well say that Catholicism is Roman imperialism.

 

[dzheremi]

Some indeed DO say that, with the phenomenon of Latinization in mind as evidence. I’m not sure I entirely disagree with them, in so far as that specific reasoning is concerned. Again, if you can show some effort at “de-Arabization” as being acceptable within mainstream Islam, then I might change my tune. As it is, I know plenty of Somali, Amazight, Kurdish and other non-Arab (ex-)Muslims who would actually agree on the existence of culturally imperialistic tendencies within Islam, though they obviously would not phrase it in such blunt terms (though I dunno…some traditoinally Muslim people are VERY anti-Arab, to the point of reasserting their identities via atheism).

 

[tomarin]

He…he…perhaps with beards, u’ll be easily recognized by Muhammad whre as when u dont grow one, u have to speak Arabic to him to be recognized.

There’s a fine line between disagreeing with another religion and mocking it. I think you’re way over that line.

 

[tomarin]

Some indeed DO say that, with the phenomenon of Latinization in mind as evidence. I’m not sure I entirely disagree with them, in so far as that specific reasoning is concerned. Again, if you can show some effort at “de-Arabization” as being acceptable within mainstream Islam, then I might change my tune. As it is, I know plenty of Somali, Amazight, Kurdish and other non-Arab (ex-)Muslims who would actually agree with the imperialist tendencies within Islam, though they obviously would not phrase it in such blunt terms (though I dunno…some traditoinally Muslim people are VERY anti-Arab, to the point of reasserting their identities via atheism).

Islam ceased to be a strictly Arab affair after the conquest and reverse cultural assimilation of Persia, sometime in the 7th century I think? Since then it has spread to any number of geographic areas/culture zones in which it has adapted to those cultural conditions (and been enriched by so doing). These multiple peripheries and cultural zones are largely autonomous of the Arabic heartland, which is why I feel defaming Islam as “Arab imperialism” is somewhat out of touch with reality.