Contemplating Islam

[LDNCatholic]

Hello LDN,

This is already the case. It is not about dominance , it is about separation. In my area in Egypt women would be on the Top story of the masjid while men would be in the down level . The reason the habit went in some places that women were in the back , because when going down in prostration , it is not appropriate for a woman to be infront of men .

in other mosques in cairo there are curtains wree women pray on the side.

best regards,

Meedo

Fair enough. I think that is a much better solution than sticking women behind men.

 

[tomarin]

In short, appeals to the usefulness of one language in a liturgical setting are fine. Appeals to the character, linguistic properties, “sacredness”, etc. of one language (or the culture/s associated with the native speakers of that language!) are not. There is nothing about Arabic, even Qur’anic Arabic, that makes it inherently more suitable for the offer of prayer than any other language that a Muslim might actually speak. To believe otherwise, I guess you have to be a Muslim. I am not a Muslim, so I don’t believe it.

I don’t believe Arabic is truly a sacred language either, but the fact that Muslims believe it doesn’t offend me. I rather like Arabic actually (not saying you don’t – I know you’re a language maven).

 

[dzheremi]

“Offended” is probably not the right word for how I feel about it. I think it limits God and is therefore to be rejected, so I guess it doesn’t get far enough into my theology to really offend me.

And yeah, I like Arabic plenty. I wouldn’t have just spent a year studying it if I didn’t. It really is quite beautiful.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

well, i have to ask you two questions where i actually asked before
1- what is your defination for this word " universal religion" ?
2- what do you mean by culture of arabic ? as for i think that arabic is somekind of languge not culture

I’ve actually already explained all this, in detail, within my various responses to you, so I find it ironic that you’ve just now “put your hands on the problem” (as you said in the following quote-response).

To prove that I’m not merely blowing hot air, I argued in this post:

Your long exposition on prayer is all well and good, but I don’t think it addresses the fundamental point: when one becomes part of the umma, or Muslim community, they must embrace Arabic culture to some degree.

There is a big difference, because my definition does not refer only to the language. I mean the Arabic culture entire, as I referred to earlier in this post.

Bit of a strange reaction, since I wrote that in response to your misrepresentation of my argument regarding the signs that the understanding of Islam is limited to the culture of Mohammad.

And in this post:

The argument is not what language they speak in Paradise, but using this belief within Islam as an example of the heavy Arabic presence in Islam, which again points to the question: is Islam all that inclusive, or is it really pointed towards a single culture?

I refer to more than that, obviously, if I use the generic term “Arabic culture”…

And in this post:

When Muslim “culture” is discussed, it is almost entirely in an Arabic context.

They opposed the Arabic pagan culture of that time, but the Arabic culture is well present in Islam.

And in this post:

…much of Islamic culture (dress, phrases, architecture, etc) is synonymous with Arabic culture.

I could go on, but I am limited in characters for this post. Looking on all this, I must truly wonder if you are even reading my arguments at all, or skimming them and then replying from the hip.

in my religion , it’s okey to grow your bread and it’s okey to not

Thus far, I have not seen anything that concludes it’s OK not to grow a beard. I’ve brought forth the evidence of Islamic scholars and sahih hadith sources. You’ve brought forth nothing but your own personal opinion. I think the forum can see which argument really holds weight.

i just not find my self but laughing when you consider growing of beards is practice for our faith . oh God

Did you just use God’s name in vein as an exclamation? :tsktsk:

In any case, I will get to the place of the beard in a moment.

Growing beards might be encouraged, but is not mandatory in Islam. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him had reasons for his time only, 1400 years ago, to command the Muslims to grow beards. This doesn’t mean that these reasons have to exist today.

Ah, so the commands of God and His prophet are not timeless, nor are they applicable throughout all of mankind’s history? I’ve heard atheists argue this, but never Muslims.

It is especially strange given the identification of growing a beard as fitrah and the fact that no where have I ever seen a Muslim scholar argue this. In fact…

grow the beards is from fitrah becuase shaving it is an act of revolting against the nature of man, and imitating women.

And so would a true Muslim revolt against the nature of man which God had ordained? Perhaps a Muslim would also engage in homosexual sex, since the order God ordained for mankind is nothing more than a suggestion that can be ignored - at least, if we follow your definition of fitrah.

Let’s see how one Islamic group looks at application of the Koran and fitrah as outlined by Mohammad:

“And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)! and fear God. Verily, God is severe in punishment.” (Holy Qur’an Chapter 59, Verse 7)

The fitrah is the natural inclination to worship God alone, and it includes compliance with what God and His Messenger explained to be from the characteristics of fitrah. The acts of fitrah are specific features which God has created in man and found within his natural tendency to like as well as to dislike what contradicts these acts. The great Islamic scholar al-Sayyuti said: "The best explanation of fitrah is that it is the Sunnah (way) of all of the Prophets which is in agreement with (all of) the revealed Laws, indicating that it is a response to naturally created inclinations. In the Holy Quran, Almighty God, the Most High and Exalted, has identified the pure fitrah with which He created mankind:

“So set your purpose for religion as a man upright (hanifan) by nature (fitrah) - the nature (fitrah) framed by God, in which He created mankind. There is no altering (the Laws of ) the creation of God.” (Holy Qur’an Chapter 30, Verse 30)

In this verse, God Most High also identifies the fitrah with the way of the hanifa, which means the way of Pure Monotheism as practiced by Abraham, peace be upon him. The religion of Abraham and all of the prophets, peace be upon them all, was one of the true fitrah, in which they worshipped Almight God alone without intermediaries or an incarnate “Savior”.

Since it is obligatory on Muslims to following the commands of the Prophet Muhammad, may God bless him and give him peace, as the previously mentioned verses from Qur’an clearly state, all Muslims should make every effort to comply with and maintain the characteristics of fitrah as described by God’s Messenger, may God bless him and give him peace, when he said: “Five practices are characteristics of the fitrah: circumcision, shaving the pubic hairs, cutting the mustaches short, clipping the nails and plucking the hair of the armpits.” (Reported in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.)…

…The Prophet Muhammad, may God bless him and give him peace, whom we are ordered to follow, made it clear that the Muslim male must let his beard grow… [emphasis mine]

I place this alongside Yusuf Estes, the various judges and clerics which Zaki linked to, and once again, elwill, it seems that the number of Muslim scholars on your side steadily declines. The odds do not point in your favor.

Unless, of course, you know far more about the nature God intended than Mohammad.

 

[jakasaki]

Bump ~

Very well ~ I have no idea what growing a “beard” has to do with rewards.

Please explain!

I quote you again regarding the beard.

You stated in a statement that:

Quote: elwill
**muslims will be rewarded if they did it **

 

[seraphime2008]

You’re absolutely right, this is what I have a problem with. I have that same problem with certain people (“Rastafarians”, mostly) who claim that Amharic is a sacred language, since it was spoken by their “God”, Haile Selassie. I have the same problem with the KJV-only crowd in Christianity, who believe that a particular translation is prefered by God.

If it were merely a matter of using Arabic in certain prayers, then that’s not a problem. Arab Muslims do it, Arab Christians do it. It’s fine. It makes perfect sense. The problem comes with the claim that Muslims (and, as far as I’ve seen, ONLY Muslims) make that Arabic is the LANGUAGE OF GOD, that the angels in heaven speak Arabic, etc. Apparently these views are fairly traditional to Islam, having been explained to me by a Muslim in rather simple terms: the Qur’an is the literal word of God, the Qur’an is in Arabic, therefore God speaks Arabic, and we must worship God in Arabic. Given this line of reasoning, I reject the Islamic basis for enshrining Arabic as a “sacred language” as part of my overall rejection of Islam and its claims. Since I don’t believe God is an Arab, I don’t believe that anything bad would happen if Pakistani Muslims offered their prescribed prayers in Urdu, or if Amazight Muslims recited the Qur’an in Tamazight, or Somali Muslims in Somali. That they are not allowed to do that, because apparently Islamic orthodoxy disallows them from doing it, tells me that there is more at work than some adherence to tradition as is the case in the Orthodox churches or the Latin Mass. There are theological underpinnings to this enforcement. God doesn’t listen to your “salat” if you don’t pray to Him in His language. Which just HAPPENS to be Muhammad’s language I’m sorry, but something is rotten in Mecca. Muslim claims of Arabic as the “sacred language” stink to high heaven.

And I never wrote that Islam cannot be or is not a universal religion, even as I reject its claims about Arabic as I reject basically everything else about it. It most certainly IS a universalizing religion, anyway. One of the things it makes universal is the use of Arabic by its faithful. A Muslim explanation for the use of Arabic in formal worship is precisely that it makes Islam a universal religion by the imposition of one language for all instead of however many local/national languages across the body of believers. As far as I can tell, this is purely a pragmatic concern (though, obviously, in the hands of people predisposed to believe in the “sacredness” of Arabic, it can take on religious overtones), so I have less of a problem with this point. It is qualitatively different than “this is God’s language”, “this language is pure and clear”, etc.

In short, appeals to the usefulness of one language in a liturgical setting are fine. Appeals to the character, linguistic properties, “sacredness”, etc. of one language (or the culture/s associated with the native speakers of that language!) are not. There is nothing about Arabic, even Qur’anic Arabic, that makes it inherently more suitable for the offer of prayer than any other language that a Muslim might actually speak. To believe otherwise, I guess you have to be a Muslim. I am not a Muslim, so I don’t believe it.

Very well said. I too always found myself flabbergasted when my muslim friends said that Arabic is the official language of God! As if God needs identity associated with his creatures…!

 

[antonabe]

A person who is contemplating Islam if he or she is now a Christian is not a convinced believer in Jesus Christ,If a person reads the new Testament,all four versions I cannot imagine how he or she is contemplating Islam unless it is for purposes of marriage.The way of life as defined in detail by Jesus Chrst his death and resurrection is the only way for Salvation and eternal Glory.Followers of Islam are themselves presently confused some kill in the name of God others deprive people of basic human rights.In Malaysia a woman was sentenced to be caned for drinking a glass of Beer last week.In Pakistan Catholics are killed for practising their religion by extremists.In such a scenario in the present context considering the degree of violence by extremists cannot imagine a practising and convinced Christian contemplating Islam.

 

[sedonaman]

You’re absolutely right, this is what I have a problem with. I have that same problem with certain people (“Rastafarians”, mostly) who claim that Amharic is a sacred language, since it was spoken by their “God”, Haile Selassie. I have the same problem with the KJV-only crowd in Christianity, who believe that a particular translation is prefered by God.
… tells me that there is more at work than some adherence to tradition as is the case in the Orthodox churches or the Latin Mass.

I strongly suspect it has something to do with Muslims being “the best of peoples,” which is a play on the human desire to consider one’s self superior than those outside his own group. This shows up in many cultures. How many primitive tribes name themselves something like “The People” and the other tribe over the hill “Sons of the She Dog”? In short, it’s self-validation through bigotry. If this isn’t the case, and Allah can do anything, why can’t he understand prayers in all languages?

 

[tomarin]

I strongly suspect it has something to do with Muslims being “the best of peoples,” which is a play on the human desire to consider one’s self superior than those outside his own group. This shows up in many cultures. How many primitive tribes name themselves something like “The People” and the other tribe over the hill “Sons of the She Dog”? In short, it’s self-validation through bigotry. If this isn’t the case, and Allah can do anything, why can’t he understand prayers in all languages?

Do they really think he can’t understand prayers in other languages?

 

[Dee123]

you know !
if your country be invaded and attacked from other nations , be sure that the muslims in your country will be the first ones who will fight to prevent you and themselfs , and they will do that becuase of the violence in quran which in fact recommending muslims to be brave and to fight for the sake of defense

hence , all of you will hope if there are no christians shouting saying " love you enemy and give them the other cheek"

peace

Do you really believe this? Wasn’t it muslims who caused 9/11? Do Muslims really fight against Muslim? Give me one example of this…

 

[sedonaman]

Do they really think he can’t understand prayers in other languages?

Or maybe he doesn’t listen to them. Otherwise, why this obsession with Arabic other than bigotry? What would others say about Christianity if Christians claimed that English was God’s language? Why, the PC police would go ballistic.

 

[Dee123]

Yeah I’ll resend god-willing but probably not today.

wasalam

but i didn’t say muslims in my example , i just said another nation

i just wanna to tell you that our religion and our quran is talking about every aspect in our life , it contain instructions in the time of war and it contain instructions in the time of peace
however we have to follow the intstructions of God if the war imposed upon us
but be sure that i agree with you that in the situation of war we will not give our enemy our cheek

Why are the Muslims killing Christians in Pakistan? Why are Muslims in Nigeria killing Christians? Why are Muslims killing the Christians in the Sudan? Tell me, why did Muslims attack the U.S.A. in 9/11?
Give me one example where Christians or any other people attacked a Muslim nation first…

 

[antonabe]

Muslims are killing Catholics in Pakistan because a law called the law of blasphemy exists.Everything a Catholic does or a Christian does such as public prayer and worship can be made out to be Blasphemy.A Christian Boy fell in love with a muslim girl and the Muslim extremists killed not only the Boy but many others and burnt the Church.The Catholic Church in Pakistan is begging of the International community to take this up with the UN and get this law of Blasphemy repealed as it has become an instrument of death to Christians.

 

[tomarin]

Or maybe he doesn’t listen to them. Otherwise, why this obsession with Arabic other than bigotry? What would others say about Christianity if Christians claimed that English was God’s language? Why, the PC police would go ballistic.

I think they regard it as a holy language because the Quran was revealed in Arabic. That’s about all I know about it. I would think God could understand any human language, though.

 

[dzheremi]

In trying to research this issue I’ve come across a few conflicting claims, but one thing seems relatively consistent across all of them (and consistent with my previous understanding, and Tomarin’s explanation above): The Qur’an was revealed in Arabic, so God has chosen to place this language above others by making it His mode of revelation to Muhammad and His people. As this Islamic apologetics page points out, previous scriptures which Muslims claim that they obliged to accept as valid were written in other languages, so it is a bit silly to claim that Arabic is God’s own language any more than Aramaic or Hebrew (or any other language is). Probably a more Islamically-precise answer would be that Arabic is the chosen language of God’s final and only perfect revelation. I have my own problems with this claim, naturally, but there you go have. The idea that Arabic is God’s language still remains a very important idea within various strains of folk Islam, though, so I wouldn’t go around defaming it out of hand were I not conviced that I have some reasonable license to do so.

Far more insidious (because it might seem less stupid on its face than the “God speaks this language so He obviously loves it better than yours”) is reasoning like the following, taken from this Islamic apologetics page on the subject (NOTE: Does this “mystical journey” language look familiar to anyone else? Byzantine Wolf? Elwill, perhaps? ):

quote=Dr. Muhammad Hamidullah It is noteworthy that according to the Islamic belief the Qur’an is the Word of Allah, the recitation of which is considered as something meritorious. This is evident from the spiritual point of view. It stands as the faithful journey’s unto the Lord through the sacred word of the Lord Himself. His Word is the path towards Him, something like a wire to conduct the electrical current that illuminates the bulb. The journey unto the Lord is of course the ultimate goal that every soul aspires to reach. The original Word has been revealed in Arabic: any translation would be a human work and human word, and this can scarcely serve the purpose of this mystical journey.
[/quote]

Again, apparently since the Qur’an is the literal word of God, this affords Arabic some special status on “the journey unto the Lord”. This does not come out and say “God prefers Arabic”, but it’s hard not to read it as more or less directly implying that. Sure, you can pray privately in your own language, but your “mystical journey” on the path towards God is that much straighter if you recite His word in His prefered language (this time around, anyway!). It makes me wonder what a Muslim might say about an Assyrian or other Syriac-speaking Christian (who, after all, prays in “God’s language”), were they not so busy killing them and forcing them into exile across the Middle East.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Again, apparently since the Qur’an is the literal word of God, this affords Arabic some special status on “the journey unto the Lord”. This does not come out and say “God prefers Arabic”, but it’s hard not to read it as more or less directly implying that. Sure, you can pray privately in your own language, but your “mystical journey” on the path towards God is that much straighter if you recite His word in His prefered language (this time around, anyway!). It makes me wonder what a Muslim might say about an Assyrian or other Syriac-speaking Christian (who, after all, prays in “God’s language”), were they not so busy killing them and forcing them into exile across the Middle East.

That’s partially what I was arguing with elwill about. You can’t say God likes all languages, then say you can’t have your “mystical journey” to God without Arabic. That would be like if I told a Russian Christian that he couldn’t know Christ without studying English and reading the KJV. It would be absurd.

 

[sedonaman]

What would you say to a person who was contemplating Islam?
I really need some strong advice and hard facts!

The person contemplating conversion to Islam should learn 7th century Arabic first. We have been told by Muslims that the only true Qur’an is the one in Arabic. The same site says you don’t have to know Arabic to become a Muslim, but “learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic.” [Emphasis added]

If this last claim is true, conveying Allah’s “real” message to a potential convert would be virtually impossible if he doesn’t understand 7th c. Arabic because that’s what the original was written in, and it hasn’t changed one dot since then, we are assured. So how can a person become a believer in Islam if Islam is one thing in his own language, but the “real” Islam is something else in 7th c. Arabic? I posed this question to a Muslim on another blog, and he replied that “an Islamic scholar would explain it.” That’s all well and good, but in what language would he explain it since he too would have to translate Qur’anic concepts into English and “there is a big difference between translations of the Qur’an and the original text in 7th c. Arabic”?

In short, you can’t get from non-believer to believer unless you know 7th c. Arabic because you can’t believe something you don’t know … unless of course, Islam has a completely different meaning of “believer” from what Westerners understand, a distinct possibility since the Arabic concept for it has been translated into English, and “there is a big difference between translations and the original in 7th c. Arabic.” If all of this sounds like going in circles, the potential Western convert should be ready for more of the same.

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

What would you say to a person who was contemplating Islam?
I really need some strong advice and hard facts!

To be honest, I wouldn’t join a religion that doesn’t allow me to enjoy ribs and a beer at a picnic.:nope:

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I missed this post, so I’m responding to it now. Apologies for the delay.

How is this any less true of Christianity than it is of Islam? Christianity emerged in a particular cultural milieu yet it claims to be universal, and we (Christians) have no problems with those claims.

It seems to me that what this comes down to is that you and Dzheremi have a problem with Islam having a sacred language (Arabic) rather than merely a liturgical language. But why it follows that Islam cannot be considered universal is a bit beyond me.

You’ve missed my point as well, I’m afraid.

For one, I used Orthodoxy as an example of how Christianity speaks through the culture of a people, not the people through a culture. In Korea the Orthodox do the liturgy in Korean; in Greece they perform it in Greek; in China they perform it in Chinese; in Japan they perform it in Japanese; in Africa they perform it in the various local languages; etc etc etc. The only place where Orthodox Churches do not speak in the local languages are in places like America or Canada where they are mostly immigrant populations - but even then, they often perform part of even nearly all of the liturgy in the local language (the Orthodox Church I intend right now, for example, performs perhaps 60% of the liturgy in English and the rest in liturgical Greek). What’s more, people are allowed to maintain their cultural identity - the African Orthodox, for example, do not have to pretend to be Russian, nor are the Chinese Orthodox forced to pretend they are Greek, nor are Indian Orthodox forced to pretend they are Japanese, etc.

Islam, by contrast, pushes Arabic upon the people. The mosque sermons may be delivered in the local languages (depending on where you go), but the services are done entirely in Arabic, and the Arabic language is given a place of high authority to the point where (as we saw with elwill) it is considered the literal word of God, and a Muslim cannot get spiritually close to God without knowing it. Islamic culture, as I said earlier, is synonymous with Arabic culture (even if it doesn’t work the other way around): Islamic patterns, clothing, beliefs and practices all come from Arabic culture.

I have no qualms about Muslims saying Arabic was the original language of the Koran. I have no qualms about scholarly study of the Koran’s Arabic. Where I draw the line is when Arabic culture (which includes, but is not limited to, the language) becomes the predominant force, and converts of any culture have to submit to it.

Islam cannot be considered universal because it does not accept the cultural identity of all men and does not place all languages on equal footing. As I said in an earlier post, when John 1:1 is translated into any language in the world it means the exact same thing, and can be understood the exact same way - the Koine Greek is not considered the literal word of God, because the literal Word of God is Jesus Christ, and He is the Truth that unites all men. It is belief in Him that make us all universal, be we Arabic, Asian, black, or otherwise. We are not united by a singular culture or language (in fact the Judaizers were fought against by the apostles for that very reason) but a common faith in the Triune God. That is true universalism. All nations are disciples of God (cf Matt 28:19), not a culture or a region.

 

[tomarin]

I missed this post, so I’m responding to it now. Apologies for the delay.

No apology is necessary.

Islamic culture, as I said earlier, is synonymous with Arabic culture (even if it doesn’t work the other way around): Islamic patterns, clothing, beliefs and practices all come from Arabic culture.

Is it? What about the absorption of Persian culture into Islamic civilization, which probably did more than anything else to alter the religion and make into something that could become a global movement? What about the many ways that Islam adapted to the many and diverse cultural environments in which it spread and have since continued to evolve? Islam in Indonesia is not the same as Islam in subsaharan Africa or China for example.

I think the assumptions you’re making show the dangers of assuming an unchanging essence for Islam. In your case you’re assuming it “froze” shortly after the death of Mohammad (I think). I think the only way you can hold this view is if you know nothing about the history of the religion after the death of Mohammad.

I have no qualms about Muslims saying Arabic was the original language of the Koran. I have no qualms about scholarly study of the Koran’s Arabic. Where I draw the line is when Arabic culture (which includes, but is not limited to, the language) becomes the predominant force, and converts of any culture have to submit to it.

What makes you think Islam does this?

Islam cannot be considered universal because it does not accept the cultural identity of all men and does not place all languages on equal footing.

Well you’re right it doesn’t place all languages on equal footing, because Arabic is their sacred language due to their reverence for the Quran. But I think you’re making an unwarranted leap from that to saying it “does not accept the cultural identity of all men”. Whatever flaws the religion has, it does do a good job uniting people from different cultural backgrounds under a simple set of rubrics – isn’t this in evidence from the remarkable diversity of Muslims today? That more than anything else is probably the secret of its success.