Contemplating Orthodoxy

[Big_Chris]

After off-and-on considering Orthodoxy for roughly four years now - much longer, really, if you consider that I fell in love with the Byzantine Church as an undergrad as a result of my studies - I finally have established contact with the priest of the local Greek Orthodox Church - which is one of the two Orthodox parishes in the area, the other being pan-Orthodox.

I have no immediate plans of converting, though, as there are a number of questions which I must seek out answers to, both from a Catholic and an Orthodox perspective; among those, of course, being a question of the primacy versus supremacy of the Pope. Even as a Catholic all these years, the papal powers are not something I’ve always agreed with but never something I’ve studied or researched; rather, I’ve just ignored the position and the man holding it. My bias is with the Orthodox position; however, given that my girlfriend (and future fiance) and her family is Catholic and given the relationship I’ve formed with my Catholic parish, accepting papal authority wouldn’t be conscientiously gut-wrenching. I must also consider what the differences between the different Orthodox Churches are and why they exist; the varied Orthodox stances on Protestan/Catholic baptism; the question of contraception, divorce and remarriage.

Plus, there’s no need to be hasty in making a decision: the holy Spirit calls me to a life of prayer first and foremost, followed by attempting to live virtuously. Of course, when my natural mode of worship has tended to approach the Eastern side of things, crossing the Bosphorus wouldn’t be entirely hasty. However, after reading about a Benedictine hermit who, at the age of 70, finally converted to Orthodoxy, I am also confident that living an Eastern spirituality within the confines of my current Franciscan parish is more than possible until it becomes more plainly evident where the holy Spirit will have me continue my journey.

Whatever my decision, I already know that leaving Catholicism will pain me as much as never converting to Orthodoxy. In truth, the schism does infect the souls of men.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Whatever my decision, I already know that leaving Catholicism will pain me as much as never converting to Orthodoxy.

A rather “heavy” OP …

Irrespective of the other very important issues you mentioned, it seems clear that you are drawn to the Christian East. While every Church has its challenges (and the Eastern Catholic Churches are no exception), it is unclear why you might be bypassing the Eastern Catholic Churches in favor of an Orthodox conversion. I say so not to disparage our very good, faithful Orthodox brothers and sisters, but you are Catholic at the moment, and despite some conflict it seems as if you intuitively understand that you have a home there, as does your intented bride to be.

You mention the Franciscans. I don’t know where you are and whether or not you have any exposure to the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church in the U.S., but I will point out that we do have a direct affiliation with the Franciscan order - Holy Dormition Byzantine Franciscan Friary (hdbfm.com/), and the members of that blessed community are just truly special. In addition, our new Metropolitan Archbishop-elect, William Charles Skurla, is himself a Franciscan.

With deeper exposure to the Eastern Catholic life, you will find that we live in an interesting world where we share in the heritage of Orthodoxy yet are in communion with Rome. It is a model that, while not perfect, allows those Catholics who are drawn to experience the East to do so while still remaining Catholic.

If you would like to chat privately, please feel free to send me a PM. While these are inherently personal issues of a very challenging nature, if I can help you better understand the way of Eastern Catholic life, I would be happy to do so.

Blessings to you on your Lenten journey and on your spiritual discernment. You have my prayers!

 

[PompousMaximus]

After off-and-on considering Orthodoxy for roughly four years now - much longer, really, if you consider that I fell in love with the Byzantine Church as an undergrad as a result of my studies - I finally have established contact with the priest of the local Greek Orthodox Church - which is one of the two Orthodox parishes in the area, the other being pan-Orthodox.

I have no immediate plans of converting, though, as there are a number of questions which I must seek out answers to, both from a Catholic and an Orthodox perspective; among those, of course, being a question of the primacy versus supremacy of the Pope. Even as a Catholic all these years, the papal powers are not something I’ve always agreed with but never something I’ve studied or researched; rather, I’ve just ignored the position and the man holding it. My bias is with the Orthodox position; however, given that my girlfriend (and future fiance) and her family is Catholic and given the relationship I’ve formed with my Catholic parish, accepting papal authority wouldn’t be conscientiously gut-wrenching. I must also consider what the differences between the different Orthodox Churches are and why they exist; the varied Orthodox stances on Protestan/Catholic baptism; the question of contraception, divorce and remarriage.

Plus, there’s no need to be hasty in making a decision: the holy Spirit calls me to a life of prayer first and foremost, followed by attempting to live virtuously. Of course, when my natural mode of worship has tended to approach the Eastern side of things, crossing the Bosphorus wouldn’t be entirely hasty. However, after reading about a Benedictine hermit who, at the age of 70, finally converted to Orthodoxy, I am also confident that living an Eastern spirituality within the confines of my current Franciscan parish is more than possible until it becomes more plainly evident where the holy Spirit will have me continue my journey.

Whatever my decision, I already know that leaving Catholicism will pain me as much as never converting to Orthodoxy. In truth, the schism does infect the souls of men.

I hope we get some more insight into this. I am interested in hearing some answers to your queries, just hope they are not too biased.

 

[iohanne]

The truth remains the truth. The world is not a pastiche of experiences. It is first and foremost rightly ordered by the divine Logos. Eastern Catholics are in communion with the Pope and believe that the vast majority of Latin beliefs and practices are acceptable and not heretical. The Eastern Orthodox are not in communion with the Pope and believe that there are several Latin beliefs and practices that are unacceptable and downright heretical.

You can still believe in the apostolicity of both Churches. You can still believe that the Holy Spirit is capable of working in and through both Churches. The Eastern Orthodox refrain from an official position on the validity of sacraments outside of their Church but I believe you, as a lay person, can personally believe in the efficacy of the sacraments of the Catholic Church. But only one Church has the fullness of truth. I would suggest that you take a deeper look at the points of contention between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. This includes the papacy as well as beliefs and practices among the Latins that the Orthodox find problematic.

Personally, I’m leaning more towards Holy Orthodoxy these days.
Please pray for me, a sinner.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Personally, I’m leaning more towards Holy Orthodoxy these days.
Please pray for me, a sinner.

Yet you make the argument for Catholics to remain Catholic so very well!

You have my prayers, indeed!

Same advice - try an Eastern Catholic Church. You can find a directory here: Eastern & Oriental Catholic International Directory. While not “official” or guaranteed to be complete, this labor of love has been thoughtfully complied with the help of Eastern & Oriental Catholics worldwide.

 

[Lancer]

Might be helpful to listen to…get a perspective from James Likoudis…Catholic Answers Radio 2009…Eastern Orthodoxies

James Likoudis is a former College Instructor in History and Government with over 20 years of teaching experience in public and private education. A nationally known writer and lecturer on Catechetics, Sex Education, and Liturgy, he is also the author of several books dealing with the ecclesiology of the Eastern Orthodox churches., including Ending the Byzantine Greek Schism, The Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome and Modern Eastern Orthodoxy: Letters to a Greek Orthodox on the Unity of the Church, and Eastern Orthodoxy And The See Of Peter: A Journey Toward Full Communion.

catholic.com/radio/shows/eastern-orthodoxies-4322

Website for Mr. Likoudis
credo.stormloader.com/jlindex.htm

Blessings on your search…discernment… journey.
Pax Christi

 

[iohanne]

Same advice - try an Eastern Catholic Church. You can find a directory here: Eastern & Oriental Catholic International Directory. While not “official” or guaranteed to be complete, this labor of love has been thoughtfully complied with the help of Eastern & Oriental Catholics worldwide.

Thank you very much although I’ve pretty much already done the liturgical tour around my city. =P

I live very close to St. Elias Ukrainian Catholic Church in Brampton, Ontario which is apparently one of the more magnificent Eastern Catholic parishes in North America so I’m very lucky to have St. Elias nearby. Such a tight-knit community, liturgically conservative, no latinisations whatsoever - it’s amazing.

But I must be honest with myself: it’s the papacy that has begun to bother me as well as several Latin beliefs and practices.

 

[Jacob50]

After off-and-on considering Orthodoxy for roughly four years now - much longer, really, if you consider that I fell in love with the Byzantine Church as an undergrad as a result of my studies - I finally have established contact with the priest of the local Greek Orthodox Church - which is one of the two Orthodox parishes in the area, the other being pan-Orthodox.

I have no immediate plans of converting, though, as there are a number of questions which I must seek out answers to, both from a Catholic and an Orthodox perspective; among those, of course, being a question of the primacy versus supremacy of the Pope.

You yourself said you have a number of questions which you are seeking answers for. My opinion is: First you should seek the answers to your questions, and then make a decision. Do not stay ignorant about your current faith which is Catholicism. If you go to Orthodoxy, first be convinced you understood the Catholic position first and if you still reject it after fully understanding it, then make a decision.

It is quite sad that some Catholics leave their faith and after doing such they don’t know how to defend their new one. In fact, they don’t even know what their new one beliefs.

The above is of course my opinion. You are free of going where ever you want.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8984376

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Thank you very much although I’ve pretty much already done the liturgical tour around my city. =P

I live very close to St. Elias Ukrainian Catholic Church in Brampton, Ontario which is apparently one of the more magnificent Eastern Catholic parishes in North America so I’m very lucky to have St. Elias nearby. Such a tight-knit community, liturgically conservative, no latinisations whatsoever - it’s amazing.

But I must be honest with myself: it’s the papacy that has begun to bother me as well as several Latin beliefs and practices.

You are then truly blessed. So coincidental, as I recently wrote to Father Roman asking a small favor (Ukrainian transliterated lyrics for a wedding hymn I had heard on their YouTube channel). He was kind enough to write me back, a complete stranger, and also mailed me some goodies to boot. He’s a blessed soul, and I would love to visit his church some day (the postcard he sent was a great aerial shot of the property).

How far detacted is that blessed little Temple of the Lord from the trappings of Rome? And they do seem like a very tight-knit, family oriented community of believers.

I pray for you, and hope Fr. Roman can help you in your spiritual discernment.

 

[Big_Chris]

While every Church has its challenges (and the Eastern Catholic Churches are no exception), it is unclear why you might be bypassing the Eastern Catholic Churches in favor of an Orthodox conversion. I say so not to disparage our very good, faithful Orthodox brothers and sisters, but you are Catholic at the moment, and despite some conflict it seems as if you intuitively understand that you have a home there, as does your intented bride to be.

It’s not been much of a home, honestly. I can’t say it hasn’t brought me joy, but it’s also brought me a lot of frustration, anxiety and dissatisfaction over the years. My confessor and my girlfriend both know firsthand my struggles in remaining Catholic. Actual Catholic dogmatism and practices have done more harm than good in guiding me towards a true relationship with Christ - going so far as to lead to a nervous breakdown due to falling subject to the heresy of Jansenism, a heresy, I daresay, that could only have resulted from post-12th century Catholic theological attitudes.

I think the time has ultimately come to consider things which I, unfortunately, failed to consider when I decided to become Catholic. I didn’t convert to Catholicism because I believed that it was the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church nor because I believed in the authority of the Pope nor because I believed in all that Holy Mother Church teaches: I converted because I was lonely, I found companionship with people my own age who happened to be Catholic, and the idea of becoming Orthodox seemed intimidating and unfamiliar. Over the years, I’ve merely consented to certain teachings, ignored them, or tried to convince myself of their truth in order to please God and be a good Catholic. [It’s a lot to chew - and, given the paucity of time in the average layman’s life to consider such matters, most Catholics will just leave theology to the theologians and say “there’s one God” around the dinner table.] In the end, though, it’s always resulted in the alienation and dissatisfaction which I described above. I could, of course, say more about the kind and type of often contradictory theologians which the Catholic Church permits and the unfortunate dichotomy that Vatican II has resulted in, but I don’t know how to phrase such things without sounding incendiary.

I was recently reviewing some old discussions which I posted on a discussion board from 2008 (less than a year after being confirmed as a Catholic) in which I was then contemplating a move to Orthodoxy. Again, in 2009, I looked Eastward. And 2010. Why I’ve never made the move before, though, was a sense of shame: I did not want to be regarded as fickle even though that is precisely how I regarded myself. At this stage, though, I am no longer concerned about the possibility of fickleness.

 

[Nine_Two]

You said it best in your OP: There is no hurry.

If you try joining through the OCA, this mantra will be literally forced on you.

I know some Greek Churches will move quicker, but taking your time is important to make sure your grounded in the faith and understand what you are getting in to.

It fills me with joy when I hear of someone coming to the Church, but it fills me with an even greater dread when I hear they are falling away.

I think you are correct posting this here. Let the other Catholic and Eastern Catholic posters seed doubt, make sure you understand why we would disagree with that position (if we even would). If someone comes with a reason that is too hard for you to manage on your own, ask the priest you’ve connected with for help.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Chris,

I really appreciate your post. Thank you for being honest (especially with your second post).

But please be aware of this - you will encounter three basic types of positions here that are allowed to be discussed in charity:
(1) Catholics who don’t find Eastern and Western beliefs complementary from a Latin Catholic perspective.
(2) Orthodox who don’t find Eastern and Western beliefs complementary from an Orthodox perspective.
(3) Catholics and Orthodox who are willing and able to search and find the common ground between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

I hope we can help you on your Faith journey here on CAF. You have given a general overview of your current frame of mind. I humbly suggest that you start new threads on specific teachings that you want to understand more from the Catholic perspective.

Blessings,
Marduk

After off-and-on considering Orthodoxy for roughly four years now - much longer, really, if you consider that I fell in love with the Byzantine Church as an undergrad as a result of my studies - I finally have established contact with the priest of the local Greek Orthodox Church - which is one of the two Orthodox parishes in the area, the other being pan-Orthodox.

I have no immediate plans of converting, though, as there are a number of questions which I must seek out answers to, both from a Catholic and an Orthodox perspective; among those, of course, being a question of the primacy versus supremacy of the Pope. Even as a Catholic all these years, the papal powers are not something I’ve always agreed with but never something I’ve studied or researched; rather, I’ve just ignored the position and the man holding it. My bias is with the Orthodox position; however, given that my girlfriend (and future fiance) and her family is Catholic and given the relationship I’ve formed with my Catholic parish, accepting papal authority wouldn’t be conscientiously gut-wrenching. I must also consider what the differences between the different Orthodox Churches are and why they exist; the varied Orthodox stances on Protestan/Catholic baptism; the question of contraception, divorce and remarriage.

Plus, there’s no need to be hasty in making a decision: the holy Spirit calls me to a life of prayer first and foremost, followed by attempting to live virtuously. Of course, when my natural mode of worship has tended to approach the Eastern side of things, crossing the Bosphorus wouldn’t be entirely hasty. However, after reading about a Benedictine hermit who, at the age of 70, finally converted to Orthodoxy, I am also confident that living an Eastern spirituality within the confines of my current Franciscan parish is more than possible until it becomes more plainly evident where the holy Spirit will have me continue my journey.

Whatever my decision, I already know that leaving Catholicism will pain me as much as never converting to Orthodoxy. In truth, the schism does infect the souls of men.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

You said it best in your OP: There is no hurry.

If you try joining through the OCA, this mantra will be literally forced on you.

I know some Greek Churches will move quicker, but taking your time is important to make sure your grounded in the faith and understand what you are getting in to.

It fills me with joy when I hear of someone coming to the Church, but it fills me with an even greater dread when I hear they are falling away.

I think you are correct posting this here. Let the other Catholic and Eastern Catholic posters seed doubt, make sure you understand why we would disagree with that position (if we even would). If someone comes with a reason that is too hard for you to manage on your own, ask the priest you’ve connected with for help.

My dear friend, I think you have offered very sound advice here, except that I would beg to differ that the intention of all advice rendered from the Catholic community (on a Catholic forum) would automatically be to “seed doubt”.

As I’m sure would be the case if you read of someone on an Orthodox site considering a transition to the Catholic faith, it would be likely that charitable advice would be rendered in an attempt to keep that person from straying. Our obligations to the fellow members of our Churches are no different in that regard. We also as mature Christians recognize the gravity of such a decision.

That said, yes indeed there are those who would interject with ill intent or at least without care first and foremost for the spiritual well-being of the OP, which should be first and foremost. But, as a fellow Christian of Eastern bent, I would venture guess that you would also rest certain in your faith that the Light of Christ will ultimately show the way, not any of us!

 

[Nine_Two]

My dear friend, I think you have offered very sound advice here, except that I would beg to differ that the intention of all advice rendered from the Catholic community (on a Catholic forum) would automatically be to “seed doubt”.

As I’m sure would be the case if you read of someone on an Orthodox site considering a transition to the Catholic faith, it would be likely that charitable advice would be rendered in an attempt to keep that person from straying. Our obligations to the fellow members of our Churches are no different in that regard. We also as mature Christians recognize the gravity of such a decision.

That said, yes indeed there are those who would interject with ill intent or at least without care first and foremost for the spiritual well-being of the OP, which should be first and foremost. But, as a fellow Christian of Eastern bent, I would venture guess that you would also rest certain in your faith that the Light of Christ will ultimately show the way, not any of us!

Actually I shall make myself clearer.

I believe there are very few who would comment with the purpose of seeding doubt. I think much more highly of you guys. The purpose behind any Catholic replies looking to keep the OP within Catholicism would generally be out of a concern for the poster.

However at the same time anything said for those reasons would still serve to give the OP doubt.

I remember shortly after I myself came to Orthodoxy (through the lengthy process the OCA forced on me. ) I took a class at university which caused a great deal of life for me. I made it through all this, and I brought it up at confession. My confessors reply was something along the lines of “We cannot grow as Christians without a struggle”.

I agree that it sounded negative in my first post, but I certainly didn’t mean it to be.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Nine_Two,

I agree that it sounded negative in my first post, but I certainly didn’t mean it to be.

Actually, when I read your comment, I simply saw it as the proper method of inquiry. I mean, you won’t ask questions unless you are doubting something. The doubt causes us to ask questions, and getting answers to those questions helps us grow in Faith (hopefully).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[kevjminn]

You might find yourself going back and forth.

I thought about joining a Catholic parish because it was closer to my house. I had been baptized a Catholic and didn’t believe there was that much of a difference. I struggled with certain issues (papal claims, immaculate conception and the like) but I felt I could make peace with them. I also felt I could be more active in my Church because the closest Orthodox Church is 45 minutes from my home.

But in the end my wife and I decided to continue our spiritual journey with the Orthodox Church. I’ll give specific if asked but I just wanted to let you know that your not the only one .

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I agree that it sounded negative in my first post, but I certainly didn’t mean it to be.

You are a good soul! And as I said, I do think you offered very sound, charitable advice!

 

[Big_Chris]

You might find yourself going back and forth.

I thought about joining a Catholic parish because it was closer to my house. I had been baptized a Catholic and didn’t believe there was that much of a difference. I struggled with certain issues (papal claims, immaculate conception and the like) but I felt I could make peace with them. I also felt I could be more active in my Church because the closest Orthodox Church is 45 minutes from my home.

But in the end my wife and I decided to continue our spiritual journey with the Orthodox Church. I’ll give specific if asked but I just wanted to let you know that your not the only one .

While my girlfriend (future fiancé) is definitely supportive of my flirtation with Orthodoxy. She is an open, curious spirit, but she’s also very family-oriented - a family which approaches Catholicism in a faithfully liberal manner. She’s attended Divine Liturgy with me at the Greek Orthodox Church and didn’t much care for the amount of incense or how unwelcome she felt.

I mention this because her opinion matters more than she thinks it should. If she’s going to dislike Orthodoxy and the strangeness of the Liturgy alienate her from an authentic experience of God in a mode that she can comprehend and appreciate, I’d rather deal with remaining Catholic.

In the end, though, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Given that I’ve more or less abided as a Catholic for 5 years - with several rough spots, mind you - and haven’t really needed to give much thought to doctrinal issues like the papal powers and the Immaculate Conception, and given that at heart, all I am really after is a closer relationship with God, none of this - at least, not at the moment, translates into a need to move elsewhere from where I currently am. The thing that will motivate me the most to make a move is to form a relationship with a particular Orthodox community, a relationship that rivals anything currently happening (which nothing is) at my current Catholic parish.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Chris,

The thing that will motivate me the most to make a move is to form a relationship with a particular Orthodox community, a relationship that rivals anything currently happening (which nothing is) at my current Catholic parish.

How proactive are you at your Catholic parish? What do you mean by “anything currently happening?” What are you expecting to “happen” at your Catholic parish?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Big_Chris]

Dear brother Chris,

How proactive are you at your Catholic parish? What do you mean by “anything currently happening?” What are you expecting to “happen” at your Catholic parish?

Blessings,
Marduk

All I meant was to propose some comparison. For as involved as I’ve been with my current parish, I can study and discuss doctrinal matters for ages upon ages but unless I (and my girlfriend) are capable capable of forming some lasting bond with an Orthodox parish I’ll ultimately see no reason to cross over.

I’ve been pretty active with my current parish: various roles with RCIA, member of the stewardship committee, Knights of Columbus, Secular Franciscans, blah.