Contemplating Orthodoxy

[mardukm]

All I meant was to propose some comparison. For as involved as I’ve been with my current parish, I can study and discuss doctrinal matters for ages upon ages but unless I (and my girlfriend) are capable capable of forming some lasting bond with an Orthodox parish I’ll ultimately see no reason to cross over.

I’ve been pretty active with my current parish: various roles with RCIA, member of the stewardship committee, Knights of Columbus, Secular Franciscans, blah.

OK.

It appears then that your concerns are doctrinal? If you are willing to discuss them, please do so. If and when you decide to discuss them, aside from simply naming the doctrine, please be specific about what part of the teaching concerns you.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[John_of_Patmos]

After off-and-on considering Orthodoxy for roughly four years now - much longer, really, if you consider that I fell in love with the Byzantine Church as an undergrad as a result of my studies - I finally have established contact with the priest of the local Greek Orthodox Church - which is one of the two Orthodox parishes in the area, the other being pan-Orthodox.

I have no immediate plans of converting, though, as there are a number of questions which I must seek out answers to, both from a Catholic and an Orthodox perspective; among those, of course, being a question of the primacy versus supremacy of the Pope. Even as a Catholic all these years, the papal powers are not something I’ve always agreed with but never something I’ve studied or researched; rather, I’ve just ignored the position and the man holding it. My bias is with the Orthodox position; however, given that my girlfriend (and future fiance) and her family is Catholic and given the relationship I’ve formed with my Catholic parish, accepting papal authority wouldn’t be conscientiously gut-wrenching. I must also consider what the differences between the different Orthodox Churches are and why they exist; the varied Orthodox stances on Protestan/Catholic baptism; the question of contraception, divorce and remarriage.

Plus, there’s no need to be hasty in making a decision: the holy Spirit calls me to a life of prayer first and foremost, followed by attempting to live virtuously. Of course, when my natural mode of worship has tended to approach the Eastern side of things, crossing the Bosphorus wouldn’t be entirely hasty. However, after reading about a Benedictine hermit who, at the age of 70, finally converted to Orthodoxy, I am also confident that living an Eastern spirituality within the confines of my current Franciscan parish is more than possible until it becomes more plainly evident where the holy Spirit will have me continue my journey.

Whatever my decision, I already know that leaving Catholicism will pain me as much as never converting to Orthodoxy. In truth, the schism does infect the souls of men.

Please stay Catholic. You really can live a truly eastern Christian life in the catholic church. That is after all why it is called catholic. Try talking to an eastern catholic priest. You, your family, and God will all be pleased if you stay Catholic.
May God bless you.

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

I think the time has ultimately come to consider things which I, unfortunately, failed to consider when I decided to become Catholic. I didn’t convert to Catholicism because I believed that it was the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church nor because I believed in the authority of the Pope nor because I believed in all that Holy Mother Church teaches: I converted because I was lonely, I found companionship with people my own age who happened to be Catholic, and the idea of becoming Orthodox seemed intimidating and unfamiliar.

Hello Chris,

I must tell you that I do detect some lack of faith in your posts. You said you didn’t convert to our faith because you thought it was the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic”. Church. Neither did you convert because you thought it teaches the truth. Rather, because you felt lonely, found companionship with people of your age etc.

Indeed the Church welcomes the lonely, and those who need love. And in her we meet many good people, many which are loving ones, many which are charitable ones, and some that are truly saints.

But I think you converted for the wrong reasons. You don’t convert because “he” or “she” is in the Church. Or because I feel this or that way. Rather, because the Church teaches you the truth. And not just the truth, rather the “fullness of the truth”. That truth, which is Jesus Christ himself. I frankly think, you didn’t convert because you saw Jesus in the Catholic Church, rather maybe, because you saw some social activities in the Church in which people you know were linked into. And that is why you say it doesn’t feel like home.

My opinion is, there wont be any difference if you convert to the Orthodox Church. Because you would probably be converting for the same wrong reasons. You would have to believe that what they teach is also the fullness of the truth (just as expected in the Catholic Church, which you didn’t believed in the first place). The Orthodox believe many of the same things we do (99% maybe).

In the end its your decision, but I invite you to pray. Pray like you have never prayed in your life. So that Jesus may lead you wherever he wants you to be in. Asks Jesus to guide you. Ask Jesus, In what Church do you want me in Lord?

Pray hard. Within time, im sure he will answer. I don’t recommend you to make a quick decision without praying. Like this young woman did:

youtube.com/watch?v=7jnDe6SjArk

You have a nice forum name btw

 

[Paul_theApostle]

I am going through so much confusion myself with all of this stuff

ive come back to RC after converting to EO,but i still get drawn to my old Russian Orth parish and with the Fathers and people there which i had a good relationships with

I really am torn between the two churches and some days lately i dont know which church to go to for church services,like to either go to a evening Mass or to go to Matins or great compline at the EO church

im praying to go visit the new Russian Catholic church in town more often and see if it helps things a bit ,experiencing the Eastern church services which i miss alot while being in union with Rome

I know this is not my thread but
if God wants or prefers me to stay Catholic ,then can anyone tell me why did i leave RC and go so far into EO and convert there?

I dont understand why i went so far into EO if RC is where God prefers me to be if it has the fullness of faith/truth

in all my time at EO i believed i was on the right path in the right church and that RC was heretical,but ive learnt more about RC lately and dont have negativity towards RC anymore but i really dont know honestly ,im no theologian

 

[Peter_J]

The Orthodox believe many of the same things we do (99% maybe).

Ah, there it is.

 

[ByzCath08]

It does appear that some of your issues are doctrinal. As said before, it might be helpful for you to list out what is giving you trouble.

I can relate to your search. Back in 2008, I was so tired of the lukewarm, watered down Catholic churches in my area. I started to read the early church fathers, which lead me to read more of the Eastern Church writers and I started to feel a draw to the Christian East. I was about to make inquiries at the local Antiochian church when I find my Byzantine Catholic parish. I visited one Sunday and felt that I was home. I spent the next 1.5 years participating in the liturgies, the liturgical cycle and found my spiritual home.

My issue with the Latin Church wasn’t doctrinal, it was just not working for me in a spiritual sense and that’s why I was looking to leave. For me, as a life-long(albeit, not life-long practicing) Catholic, my biggest issue with leaving the Church was leaving communion with the Bishop of Rome. In the end, I didn’t have to do that and am truly blessed to be living an Eastern Christian lifestyle now.

 

[Big_Chris]

My issue with the Latin Church wasn’t doctrinal, it was just not working for me in a spiritual sense and that’s why I was looking to leave. For me, as a life-long(albeit, not life-long practicing) Catholic, my biggest issue with leaving the Church was leaving communion with the Bishop of Rome. In the end, I didn’t have to do that and am truly blessed to be living an Eastern Christian lifestyle now.

When Dr. Scott Hahn realized he was going to convert and was deciding between Orthodox/Catholic, he observed that it was as if the Orthodox had lost their father; they had the beauty and all the attractions that a mother brings but they didn’t have the logical discipline and preciseness of a father in their theology. Really? I mean, really, how many Catholics concern themselves in their daily spiritual lives with what the Bishop of Rome has to say? (Especially here in North America.) Seriously, how many people earnestly become Catholics because, without the Bishop of Rome, their spiritual lives are meaningless and empty?

In all the church functions I’ve attended during my time as a Catholic, I’ve had more interaction with our local bishop than I could ever hope to have with the Pope. And who does the bishop represent? Is it not Christ? The Pope is so incredibly inaccessible that it’s as if we’re being raised by a single mother anyway.

I’m not trying to be incendiary against the person of the Pope - no, not at all. While I don’t believe that the most recent Popes of recent memory are saints, I can respect the position of the papacy and its historical, collegial role in the Church. What I’m getting at is that my faith and place in the Church - whether Catholic or Orthodox - doesn’t depend on one bishop, even if it is *the *bishop who is first among equals. Pope Benedict XVI has written some really incredible books - but guess what? So has Kallistos Ware, Ignatius Brianchaninov and many, many Orthodox Fathers.

 

[ByzCath08]

You are absolutely correct that the vast majority of Catholics will never have any interaction with the Bishop of Rome. But, all Catholics are impacted by the teachings of the Pope. For example, Humane Vitae reiterated the Catholic teaching that contraception was always immoral and that the entire Church must follow that practice. The understanding that the Pope has final say in matters of faith & morals is one of the biggest differences between Orthodox & Catholic practice. If you are to remain Catholic, you must obediently submit yourself that that reality.

And it doesn’t matter how many catholics in north america concern themselves with what the Bishop of Rome says…To be Catholic means you must follow the teachings in obedience. Once you stop doing that(as many catholics do with contraception), how can you say you are a practicing catholic?

If you pursue Orthodoxy, you will still be faced with being obedient to your Priest/Bishop and/or Metropolitan.

 

[Big_Chris]

You are absolutely correct that the vast majority of Catholics will never have any interaction with the Bishop of Rome. But, all Catholics are impacted by the teachings of the Pope. For example, Humane Vitae reiterated the Catholic teaching that contraception was always immoral and that the entire Church must follow that practice. The understanding that the Pope has final say in matters of faith & morals is one of the biggest differences between Orthodox & Catholic practice. If you are to remain Catholic, you must obediently submit yourself that that reality.

And it doesn’t matter how many catholics in north america concern themselves with what the Bishop of Rome says…To be Catholic means you must follow the teachings in obedience. Once you stop doing that(as many catholics do with contraception), how can you say you are a practicing catholic?

Given the fact that a great many practicing Catholics worldwide - and the definition of ‘practicing’ was established rather loosely by the bishops - remain unfamiliar with texts such as Humanae Vitae and its proscriptions much less an accurate understanding of the Pope’s so-called “final say,” it seems the papacy has been rather ineffective where it should matter most. And, as you yourself said, it didn’t require a Pope to draft Humanae Vitae: it was already Catholic teaching.

If you pursue Orthodoxy, you will still be faced with being obedient to your Priest/Bishop and/or Metropolitan.

I’m not sure why you’re pressing the matter of obedience so strongly here. Did I say anything about dethroning Peter so that Catholics can live licentiously? To the contrary, I have stated that many Catholics are capable of leading richly fulfilling spiritual lives committed to Christ without the Bishop of Rome - and many do because of the intimate interaction between priest/parishioner and, to a lesser degree, bishop/diocese.

And therein lies the problem with the Latin Church: it is isolating and individualistic with very little sense of accountability or community. Just visit the Spirituality forum here and see all the poor souls who despair of their salvation due to Western institutionalization of Jansenism.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Chris,

I’m not sure why you’re pressing the matter of obedience so strongly here. Did I say anything about dethroning Peter so that Catholics can live licentiously? To the contrary, I have stated that many Catholics are capable of leading richly fulfilling spiritual lives committed to Christ without the Bishop of Rome - and many do because of the intimate interaction between priest/parishioner and, to a lesser degree, bishop/diocese.

Why stop there? There are many Protestants who lead richly fulfilling spiritual lives committed to Christ even without bishops and priests. Being able to lead a rich, spiritual life is not a gauge for the Truth of a doctrine.

The value of the papacy (to me anyway) is not determined by its direct impact on my life, but whether or not it is a Truth divinely established.

I’m sure the majority of people are not impacted by the debates over the Procession of the Holy Spirit or the papacy or the Immaculate conception or the Essence/Energy distinction. They just want to live simple, spiritually fulfilling lives in and for our Lord Jesus Christ. But these are important to us because we believe they are Truths given by God to His Church, and for that reason alone.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Big_Chris]

I’m sure the majority of people are not impacted by the debates over the Procession of the Holy Spirit or the papacy or the Immaculate conception or the Essence/Energy distinction. They just want to live simple, spiritually fulfilling lives in and for our Lord Jesus Christ. But these are important to us because we believe they are Truths given by God to His Church, and for that reason alone.

And who is the “we”? The priveleged few who have been born into favorable circumstances allowing access to the teachings, the luxury of time to read and study those teachings, plus a keen intellect to rationalize and synthesize those teachings in order to arrive at indubitable Truth. C’mon, Marduk, you’re giving “us” too much credit.

 

[mardukm]

And who is the “we”? The priveleged few who have been born into favorable circumstances allowing access to the teachings, the luxury of time to read and study those teachings, plus a keen intellect to rationalize and synthesize those teachings in order to arrive at indubitable Truth. C’mon, Marduk, you’re giving “us” too much credit.

I thought you were here to learn. Now, you just want to mock those who might have some knowledge from which you can learn? I’m definitely confused by your attitude.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Peter_J]

When Dr. Scott Hahn realized he was going to convert and was deciding between Orthodox/Catholic, he observed that it was as if the Orthodox had lost their father; they had the beauty and all the attractions that a mother brings but they didn’t have the logical discipline and preciseness of a father in their theology. Really? I mean, really, how many Catholics concern themselves in their daily spiritual lives with what the Bishop of Rome has to say? (Especially here in North America.) Seriously, how many people earnestly become Catholics because, without the Bishop of Rome, their spiritual lives are meaningless and empty?

Dr. Hahn is actually the subject of a number of threads. For example:
Constantly Evolving Theology - Scott Hahn
Something rotten in the state of ecumenism?

If you’re interested in discussing him further, you may want to start a new thread on the topic – you’re likely to get plenty of takers.

 

[Peter_J]

I thought you were here to learn. Now, you just want to mock those who might have some knowledge from which you can learn? I’m definitely confused by your attitude.

Whoa, what just happened here?

 

[Art321]

I’m not sure why you’re pressing the matter of obedience so strongly here. Did I say anything about dethroning Peter so that Catholics can live licentiously? To the contrary, I have stated that many Catholics are capable of leading richly fulfilling spiritual lives committed to Christ without the Bishop of Rome - and many do because of the intimate interaction between priest/parishioner and, to a lesser degree, bishop/diocese.

And therein lies the problem with the Latin Church: it is isolating and individualistic with very little sense of accountability or community. Just visit the Spirituality forum here and see all the poor souls who despair of their salvation due to Western institutionalization of Jansenism.

Ok, I really need to comment on this. This is just not true at all and I just don’t understand why you would believe this. Maybe this is from personal experience but you are really not seeing the Latin Church for what it really is.

There are many great things about the Latin Church and one of them is the Catholic community. This community is truly filled with such love for one’s neighbor, love for Chirst and His Mother, love for the Faith itself. I believe the Catholic community is only rivaled by our Orthodox brothers’ and sisters’ communities. They are both beautiful in this aspect, but also in their theology, traditions, etc.

What I think you seem to have trouble with is the lukewarmness within the Latin Church but not with the Latin Church Herself. You are not the only one because I also don’t like this and I believe that with time, all of it will disappear.

So don’t dispair as you don’t need to leave the Church. As others have suggested, join an Eastern Catholic Church and try it out. It is basically the same as the Orthodox except they are in communion with Rome.

 

[kevjminn]

While my girlfriend (future fiancé) is definitely supportive of my flirtation with Orthodoxy. She is an open, curious spirit, but she’s also very family-oriented - a family which approaches Catholicism in a faithfully liberal manner. She’s attended Divine Liturgy with me at the Greek Orthodox Church and didn’t much care for the amount of incense or how unwelcome she felt.

I mention this because her opinion matters more than she thinks it should. If she’s going to dislike Orthodoxy and the strangeness of the Liturgy alienate her from an authentic experience of God in a mode that she can comprehend and appreciate, I’d rather deal with remaining Catholic.

In the end, though, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Given that I’ve more or less abided as a Catholic for 5 years - with several rough spots, mind you - and haven’t really needed to give much thought to doctrinal issues like the papal powers and the Immaculate Conception, and given that at heart, all I am really after is a closer relationship with God, none of this - at least, not at the moment, translates into a need to move elsewhere from where I currently am. The thing that will motivate me the most to make a move is to form a relationship with a particular Orthodox community, a relationship that rivals anything currently happening (which nothing is) at my current Catholic parish.

My wife and I joined a very small OCA parish in Maryland. It took a year and a half of classes but finally I was chrismated and my wife and 4 children were baptized. I would still be attending liturgy there if we hadn’t moved to Pennsylvania.

It took a few visits before we became comfortable with everything. But I believe the fellowship after liturgy is one of the great blessings of Orthodoxy. We still have friends from our old parish that we keep in touch with. Maybe you and your fiance would find common ground in a smaller parish? Have you ever visited a parish in the OCA? If you and your fiance are willing to speak with a priest he will answer any questions or concerns that you have. That’s what my wife and I have done with each of the churches we’ve attended. Either way I hope you and your fiance find peace and fulfillment.

 

[Nine_Two]

So don’t dispair as you don’t need to leave the Church. As others have suggested, join an Eastern Catholic Church and try it out. It is basically the same as the Orthodox except they are in communion with Rome.

That is quite a bit “except”.

 

[Peter_J]

That is quite a big “except”.

Whoa, do you mean that Catholics and Orthodox **aren’t **really 99% the same after all?

(Kidding.)

 

[Art321]

That is quite a bit “except”.

Pardon?

 

[Art321]

Whoa, do you mean that Catholics and Orthodox **aren’t **really 99% the same after all?

(Kidding.)

But I thought that they were 99% the same. Sure we differ in our theology, liturgies, etc but we are the same doctrinally no?