contemplation and centering prayer... is their a difference btw them?

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Future_Prodigy

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I have been reading about all these different types of prayer and I am getting confussed… are they the same thing but approaching from a different angle?
 
Hi there FP…what do you understand as contemplation and what do you understand as Centering Prayer? These are both really big subjects indeed and much debate continues in The Church about them and very often with no real agreement, and probably to comment one would need to insight your own definition or understanding of these two subjects.
To pray is simply to put yourself, your heart and mind, into God’s Presence in some way. This is the ‘active’ side of prayer.
I must confess that I am no little reluctant to get involved in a thread on these subjects as I know they can get overly heated and emotive over disagreements…I am hoping this thread may prove more constructive and objective, and for your own sake since you have posed the question and expressing confusion, I hope so:o . Blessings - Barb:)
 
I did not know it was a heated topic… i appologize for that then. It just seemed similiar to things i had read on John main’s form of prayer, karl keating, etc.
 
Future_Prodigy said:
I did not know it was a heated topic… i appologize for that then. It just seemed similiar to things i had read on John main’s form of prayer, karl keating, etc.
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There is absolutely no need to apologize!!!👍 Because a subject may have become heated in the past is absolutely no reason not to raise the subject again. I am just hoping that posters will remain objective and cool and not subjective and heated.
I have read now a fair bit on Centering Prayer and it does seem to depend on who is writing about it and their particular concept of what it is and how to adopt it. Hence, to my mind I think Centering Prayer has a few definitions…and the same for contemplation - scholarly people still differ over when contemplation begins and when active contemplation becomes passive. And I agree with you that it can all become confusing and especially if one is looking to understand what it is all about.

To use a mantra to blank the mind is certainly not contemplation, even active contemplation…and it is certainly not even prayer. To say that the use of the mantra to blank the mind is Centering Prayer is a limited view of the concept I think. When I first read about Centering Prayer I thought to myself that it was very similar to the “Jesus Prayer” which is advocated by The Church and is simply to use the Name of Jesus or a short aspiration to focus the heart and mind on the Presence of Jesus in some way. It could be said that once that sense of Presence becomes real and actual and beyond dispute by the self as Other, it is a contemplative experience.

I am hoping that contributors to your thread will be able to clear any confusion for you.

Barb:)
 
Thanks BlessedStar… and hi there!🙂

Heaps of information on those threads, thank you for posting them. I hope that our original poster will be able to glean the information needed to clear any existing confusions.

Barb:)
 
please go to AA on the recent question on centering prayer and look at the links Michelle Arnold has provided.

no centering prayer and contemplative prayer are not the same thing.
centering prayer is a form of mental prayer which uses meditation techniques borrowed from Eastern pagan (not orthodoxy) religions which induce a trancelike state and which focus inward.

contemplative prayer in the Christian spiritual tradition is something else, is focused on God, and emphasizes over and over again that one cannot use or teach “techniques” and tricks to produce a state of infused contemplation, that condition of union with God in prayer which is his gift to some souls and which he alone can give, and no practice of the pray-er can induce.

all are called to contemplative prayer, that is mental prayer in which the soul recollects oneself and focuses on God without using spoken words or conscious directed verbalized thoughts, but whether God grants the gift of infused contemplation, in the sense experienced by the mystics, is up to God, and cannot be forced by any action of ours.

since the topic will undoubtedly come up on this thread, no the medieval work known as the Cloud of Unknowing does NOT describe centering prayer, and centering prayer as practiced and taught today does NOT derive from the work of that author, who specifically warns against first even reading the book unless under spiritual direction and ready for it, and second against trying to force contemplation by techniques and tricks.
 
Please do a search on the forum, key in the key word of “Centering Prayer” you will see numerous discussion. One of them is contemplativeprayer.net, it heatedly discussed centering prayer and contemplation. There is really no need to continue this topic since it has been debated for years and reached no conclusion.

I doubt many people on this forum have seriously studied CP.
I don’t practice CP, I don’t really understand CP, but I did some research on CP. Even so, I don’t want to jump to quick conclusion without full understanding.

Most debate here are concentrating on using a sacred word to get self into God’s presence. According to what I read, CP also involves modern psychology of the healing of unconscious wounds . But none, as far as I can recall, ever even mentioned that part during debate. My impression is many people get information here and there, never with their first hand research.

I really think there is no need to re-initiate this topic.
I think the best person to talk to is Fr. Dubay if you you can contact him. Fr. Dubay is the author of “Fire Within”, the most
sound spiritual director on contemplation. He briefly mentioned CP in his book also.

God bless!
 
Hello, InLight,

Our OP is not a Catholic, but Anglican, and he has been questioning many of our practices in other threads. I agree with you that this topic is not going to give him much help. Definitions are simply definitions, without bestowing understanding, and sometimes God would just prefer that we leave curiosity aside, as we hear in scripture.

Psalm 131:
1 My heart is not proud, O Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
** I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too sublime for me**.

2 But I have stilled and quieted my soul;
like a weaned child on its mother’s lap,
like a weaned child is my soul within me.

Future Prodigy, I honestly believe a heart truly in love with God will never fail to find its own path in conversing with Him. He is the best teacher of prayer for each of His children. When it is time to change your prayer, you will not fail to hear His voice to direct you. Meanwhile, why not just rest in the knowledge that you are in His hand, and all is well. 😉

God bless you.
 
You will not receive accurate information on Centering Prayer at CAF. This website is totally biased, against it, and the bias is based on misinformation from those who have written against it, but, who have never read Fr Keating’s writings on CP, nor did they ever speak with Fr Keating about it.

Fr Keating is one of the last living members of the three Trappist Monks, who taught the method of Centering Prayer to the laity.
The method of Centering Prayer, does not come from Eastern religious practices, as critics in this forum will tell you, but from the book, “The Cloud of the Unknowing,” as Father Keating tells us.

Why CAF critics would not go to the source, for accurate information on Centering Prayer has always puzzled me. Instead, the use information from those who were in the New Age movement, who do not do CP as taught by Father Keating.

If you desire to learn about Centering Prayer, as really is, read Father Thomas Keating, writings on it.

You can also PM me for further information.

God Bless
Jim
 
I have read the passages you relate to and realised that, I in time have used “centering prayer”. My conclusion is that CP can be very beautiful if the user has a strong faith, NEVER wavering and understanding the boundaries there have to be with CP. CP can bring in many spirits, it has many openings to satanic practices if taken too fare or wrongly practiced. A person could lose their mind, if they donot have the strength to keep iin line with Jesus Christ as the center.

Contemplative or contemplation in prayer is very beautiful and was used by many saints and probably is still used by if not all prayerful people. I think that contemplation would be best related to when a person has their mind on something they have fixed it on and glad or sad it is there on their mind for a length of time. Contemplation can take the person into a sort of dream world for a time while the person is in this fixed place of thought, and usually relaxation.

When some people contemplatively pray, they fix on the crucifix or the Virgen Mary, a saint, the Cross of Jesus, and they contemplate on what Jesus has done for their sins for their redemption, and they thank God for this.
***CP ***has the usuall path of centering on one word, or act.
***Contemplation ***usually centers on the whole act of the person they are feeling for and praying to.

Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in his wonderful eyes, and the things of the world will become strangely dim.
God bless
 
JimR-OCDS said:
You will not receive accurate information on Centering Prayer at CAF. This website is totally biased, against it, and the bias is based on misinformation from those who have written against it, but, who have never read Fr Keating’s writings on CP, nor did they ever speak with Fr Keating about it.

Jim
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there are also several of us who have read Fr Keating’s books and Basil Pennington’s books, have attended retreats and seminars conducted by these priests and by their followers who advocate CP, and who have even tried CP, and studied it extensively, and have come to the conclusion, seconded by many of the best spiritual directors and writers, that it is a dangerous practice, which can do severe damage to one’s spiritual progress, and which ignores legitimate Catholic spirituality in favor of emphasis on techniques drawn from pagan religions. don’t make assumptions about us that you cannot substantiate, if you please.
 
puzzleannie said:
there are also several of us who have read Fr Keating’s books and Basil Pennington’s books, have attended retreats and seminars conducted by these priests and by their followers who advocate CP, and who have even tried CP, and studied it extensively, and have come to the conclusion, seconded by many of the best spiritual directors and writers, that it is a dangerous practice, which can do severe damage to one’s spiritual progress, and which ignores legitimate Catholic spirituality in favor of emphasis on techniques drawn from pagan religions. don’t make assumptions about us that you cannot substantiate, if you please.
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Very well said!👍 :clapping:

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
puzzleannie said:
there are also several of us who have read Fr Keating’s books and Basil Pennington’s books, have attended retreats and seminars conducted by these priests and by their followers who advocate CP, and who have even tried CP, and studied it extensively, and have come to the conclusion, seconded by many of the best spiritual directors and writers, that it is a dangerous practice, which can do severe damage to one’s spiritual progress, and which ignores legitimate Catholic spirituality in favor of emphasis on techniques drawn from pagan religions. don’t make assumptions about us that you cannot substantiate, if you please.
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This is your opinion which of course isn’t shared by myself or others who have grown in faith through Centering Prayer. I’ve been using Centering Prayer for 30 years.

I guess its a matter God coming to you at the level you’re at. One person’s method of prayer, may not be suited for others.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
This is your opinion which of course isn’t shared by myself or others who have grown in faith through Centering Prayer. I’ve been using Centering Prayer for 30 years.

***I guess its a matter God coming to you at the level you’re at. One person’s method of prayer, may not be suited for others.***Jim
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Now that I agree with partially, Jim, although I don’t think it is always “at the level” more so “where the Lord has that person and the need in ministry for what form of prayer”.
I have used it extencively but donot use it much now at all, unless there is a need. And that is where discernment comes in. I also used miracls extencively, Our Dear Lord showed me that contemplative relationships were more for me now and miracle as with CP have to be controled.
The key to all this is that it has to be "lead by the Holy Spirit, NOT by head or our own likeing, there has to be a leading from the Holy Spirit in discernment.

Godbless
 
**One of the more successful prayer techniques I have found is called “Practicing the presence of God.” We are in the presence of God every waking moment of our lives. When I started, I would always try to remind myself of this, and all my prayers were prayed with acting as if God was present in, through, and with me. Later on, I actually felt God’s presence everywhere in many ways and when I prayed I prayed with that knowledge.

Although there are many types of prayer techniques, I found this one to be the more fruitful for me, and one that helps me share my intimate thoughts and spiritual longings with God who is everywhere.**
 
peary said:
**One of the more successful prayer techniques I have found is called “Practicing the presence of God.” We are in the presence of God every waking moment of our lives. When I started, I would always try to remind myself of this, and all my prayers were prayed with acting as if God was present in, through, and with me. Later on, I actually felt God’s presence everywhere in many ways and when I prayed I prayed with that knowledge.

Although there are many types of prayer techniques, I found this one to be the more fruitful for me, and one that helps me share my intimate thoughts and spiritual longings with God who is everywhere.**
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Practicing the presence of God, is the heart of Centering Prayer.
The only difference, if you could call it that, is the use of the sacred prayer word. The prayer word is nothing more, than turning our direction back to the Lord, when we find ourselves distracted.

Thanks for sharing BTW!👍

Jim
 
One of the more successful prayer techniques I have found is called “Practicing the presence of God.”
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Dear friend, your post reminded me of a recent sharing by a very devout and prayerful member who tried to witness to the authentic use of CP where it can be most helpful to a person that God brings to this state of supernatural prayer. I believe his words were misunderstood, but your post reminded me to share St. Teresa’s explanation.
When one of you finds herself in this sublime state of prayer, which, as I have already said, is most markedly supernatural, and the understanding (or, to put it more clearly, the thought) wanders off after the most ridiculous things in the world, she should laugh at it and treat it as the silly thing it is, and remain in her state of quiet. For thoughts will come and go, but the will is mistress and all-powerful, and will recall them without your having to trouble about it. But if you try to drag the understanding back by force, you lose your power over it, which comes from your taking and receiving that Divine sustenance, and neither will nor understanding will gain, but both will be losers.
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global.org/Pub/Teresa_Perfection_31.asp
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If we understand the practice of CP as using one sacred word, or a few words such as in ejaculations, to maintain the supernatural ‘prayer of quiet,’ also known as contemplation, we are on safe ground. It is needful to use some type of interior help to deflect extraneous thoughts in ever so quiet a RE-turning to God.

Note this difference very carefully. It should prevent the rash judging seen so often in these threads. In the above instance, CP is NOT used to enter into the prayer of quiet, but rather to sustain it through quieting one’s thoughts which are ever ready to disturb the will. In that manner, and in agreement with St. Teresa, CP can be used.

In the example of Peary who mentioned maintaining the presence of God, whatever process he or other ‘pray-ers’ use to enter into this habitual practice of RECOLLECTION, whether through a sacred word, or simply a remembrance of God, they are indeed blessed. God commanded Abraham, “Walk in My presence and be perfect!” If one uses a practice of centering their mind on God’s eternal presence within them, in order to return them to recollection, this too is a good thing.

IMO, the use of CP terminology is what freaks everyone out for they judge the improper form of it and associate that with every single spiritual application. It is regretful that they cannot permit themselves to understand that it can be a good exercise in these two prayer situations.

Throughout these threads, the people who share their good experience of this practice, receive the most uncharitable treatment that is very unfounded and distressing. One needs to understand their words only in the light explained above. I have not seen in any of their posts that they advocate the unhealthy and/or dangerous method of CP.

This reminds me of Helen Keller’s story that I have watched at least three times. Helen was able to ‘sign’ in her sleep accurately the word “water” and all kinds of words - but she had no understanding of what *water *really was. Anne was distraught, for no matter how many times she tried to help her connect the sign with the reality, Helen just did not understand. When she finally ‘got it’ (and I weep every time I view this film), it opened up new worlds for Helen.

I think this is what we are experiencing in these threads. No matter how many times our devout members try to share their good experience of this, people cannot hear their sign language to make the connection. They do not understand fully the ‘prayer of quiet’ nor habitual recollection, and become deaf to the words of those who try to explain.
 
It seems centering prayer encompasses all these traditional prayers as some would have it except it is not authentic Catholic prayer. When God becomes ‘energy’ as Fr Keating so often refers to God then we are seeing God as the new agers and eastern practises do. When God has no image as Fr Keating says then we are seeing God as the new agers and eastern practises do (this is not Eastern Orthodox, but Eastern practises such as Zen Buddhism). ‘To have seen Me is to have seen the Father’ In Catholicism we are given an image of God and this is Christ Jesus and His Image is readily found in Sacred Scripture and upon the Cross. His Image is found in the Church upholding the Truth in the Majesterium, who is to become Christ-like. It is syncretism which the Church has ruled against:newadvent.org/cathen/14383c.htm. you may read here about syncretism.

The errors in centering prayer are so numerous. It truly defies reason how upon the reading of writings by Fr Keating et al a person cannot see the new age and eastern influence and its very apparrant dangers, it is a very dangerous fusing of these non-Catholic religions with Catholicism. So people may so, oh it is based on this and it is based on that, we use this prayer from Catholicism and we use this other method from Catholicism, but the underlying snake is that, it is not purely Catholic authentic prayer because it fuses Catholicism with other religions and their practises. It places an inordinate importance on body posture and breathing, it seeks to still the mind of all thoughts and concepts ‘by letting them go’ of God which cannot be done by method and can only be done by God in contemplation and which always carries some image of God in contemplation because it is in this contemplation that souls are drawn to gaze upon God, this image may not be ‘pictorial’ in the sense of a literal image of God though sometimes it is, but the soul in the perception of the intellect has no doubt it has gazed upon the Image of God. In this stillness of faculties which God brings about in contemplation the soul is safeguarded because at that moment, or for the short or length of duration, the soul is united to God and nothing may approach, no evil, not even the facultiies may operate to corrupt it or interfere to create deception. However if a soul would attempt to induce a replica of this contemplation by following the practise of cp, the soul has no such safeguard, against itself or evil forces and it matters not how advanced a soul may deem itself to be, nor does it matter how rich in virtue the soul may deem itself to be, the soul is no match for satan and is no match for the deceptions of its own subconscious psychology.

One may not take heaven by storm, one cannot break into heaven as a thief. One may only be gifted with such an exprience as Contemplation which is a foretaste of the Beatific vision.

One may prepare for the gift, if God so wills it, of contemplation by perseverance and faithfulness in prayer and ‘If you love Me you will keep My commandments and whoever keeps My commandments I shall reveal Myself to him. Whoever keeps My commandments My Father and I shall come to him and make a home in him’ St John.

In the Living Prayer of my life
 
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