Contemplation and Mysticism

[holmj2674]

I have been reading on these forums and I have a question. What is the traditional Catholics attitude toward Contemplation and Mysticism? It seems that many modern practices (advocated by various authors to remain unnamed) are immediately dismissed as new age mumbo jumbo and anti-catholic. On the other had I am sure that many traditional Catholics find great comfort in the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila etc. So where is the fine line? Are the historic mystics ok and anyone claiming to have a contemplative method today considered a whack job?
As someone who would like to expand their spiritual practice and seek greater unity with the indwelling trinity I am having a hard time finding practices that aren’t condemned in one way or another. I have settled on the Jesus Prayer as the method that seems best, although i am sure there is probably something wrong with that too.

 

[BertBlyleven]

I have settled on the Jesus Prayer as the method that seems best, although i am sure there is probably something wrong with that too.

Not at all.

 

[Wesley7]

Its part of the tradition to say the Jesus Prayer as part of Mystical life. However, also has do with the presence of the Spirit.

 

[paul11b]

I love the Jesus Prayer. Do you have a Chokti? It’s like a Jesus Prayer Rosary. It’s 100 successive Jesus Prayers, it’s real big in the Eastern Rite. Also, I don’t think modern day mystics are considered “whack jobs” I mean look at Padre Pio, he’s a modern saint and he was a mystic. I think it depends on the person, what they teach, and what you believe. Many “new age” mystics do not teach or believe in the Catholic faith so they should not be followed. If you want to read or learn the teachings of a modern Mystic that teaches and upholds the teachings of the Catholic Church then that should be fine.

 

[5Loaves]

… On the other had I am sure that many traditional Catholics find great comfort in the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila etc.

The writings of these and other great Catholic mystics were a very significant influence in my being brought into the Church 20+ years ago.

…I have settled on the Jesus Prayer as the method that seems best, although i am sure there is probably something wrong with that too.

The classics The Ladder of Divine Ascent and The Way of a Pilgrim both address the Jesus Prayer.

The Jesus Prayer is a central prayer of the Eastern Christian traditions and there have been many threads about this in the Eastern Catholicism section of CAF. Currently there is a thread Got My Prayer Rope. Now What? active there which includes references to praying this prayer. You may want look in that section of the Forum.

 

[JReducation]

The Catholic Church has a tradition of contemplation and mysticism that is rooted in Judaism, to be precise. We see it in the scriptures. The writers of the Psalms were contemplatives and mystics. The writers of the Wisdom literature were certainly contemplatives. In both cases, their writing reflect a profound relationship with God, so much so that God literally speaks through them to humanity.

If we fast forward, Johanine Mysticism is certainly very visible in his writings. John’s Gospel is very different from the others. While Matt, Mark and Luke attempt to give us an historical narrative of Jesus work and events surrounding him, John gives us a meditation on those same events. You can tell by the way that he organizes them that he has actually prayed over them for divine understanding. When he writes his Gospel and his letters, he is writing as a contemplative who is putting on paper the insight that God have given him concerning the events to which he gives witness. The Book of Revelation is certainly one long narrative of a life of mysticism through which God revealed certain truths to John and John communicated them with his disciples and they wrote them down. Some chapters were actually written by his own hand. Who put the ink on the paper is not important right now. That’s for exegesis. What is important is that the work is the product of John’s life of contemplation. He not only recalled what he had seen and heard from the Master, he contemplated it, prayed over it, asked for greater understanding and he received it.

Then we move into the early Church. We can pick up the writings about the Desert Fathers and some of their own writings. Some of the Desert Fathers were also Fathers of the Church, not all, but many. Most of the Fathers of the Church were bishops, while most the Dessert Fathers were laymen. What we find is that they lived the contemplative life in two forms.

Hermitages – some were hermits. They lived alone and spend their time in prayer, silence, solitude and kept busy doing manual work. It appears that they did not really support themselves this way, but were supported through the generosity of the Christian faithful who brought them what they needed.

Cenobites – these were communities. Sometimes they shared a house and often they lived in cottages in a cluster. They gathered for the Eucharist, for prayer (which evolved into the LOTH) and for teaching. They would then retire to their silence and solitude. They too did manual labor

It’s in the 4th century that monasticism as we know it is born. From there begin to flow the great spiritual schools of Christendom. These are: Benedictine, Augustinian, Basilian, Cistercian, Franciscan, Carmelite, Ignatian, and Salesian. All of the great saints and masters in contemplative prayer fit into one of these schools. They all followed one of these.

For example, Catherine was a Lay Dominican. However, the Dominicans vow to obey the Rule of St. Augustine. They take from Augustine. Catherine begins with Augustinian thoughts and methods of prayer. Gradually, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, she begins to have mystical experiences that give her insights into the faith that other people did not have. She does not teach any new doctrine. What she produces is deeper insights into doctrine. But it all begins by following Augustine’s lead. It ends up as her spiritual work and her spiritual teachings, because God chose to use her that way. But not every Dominican has the experiences of Catherine. However, every Dominican is a contemplative along the model of St. Augustine. They go from contemplation to preaching.

You have Francis of Assisi. He was unique. He began with his own method and later organized his method using the Benedictine pattern. We call this Franciscan spirituality and not Benedictine, because it begins with Francis. Benedict’s monks helped Francis figure out how to say and teach the system of prayer and contemplation that he developed. He did not develop it in a vacuum. It began with a simple desire to do penance and to do the Will of God. He becomes a hermit for a year or two, pray to understand the Will of God. He supports himself by working with his hands. When he comes out of seclusion, he takes upon himself the rebuilding of Churches, but continues to pray to know the Will of God. His method of contemplation is very different from Augustine.

Augustine begins with the premise that God loves us. Francis begins with a similar premise, but with a twist. The God who loves us is not loved. Francis sets out to ask God to show him how to love. He discovers the power of the cross. He borrows from Paul and John. Paul teaches to conform to Christ Crucified and John teaches us to remain in his love. Francis teaches a method of prayer, contemplation that involves seeking to know how to embrace the Cross and how to live in God’s love. This school of prayer is going to require silence and solitude, but also active common prayer, especially the mass and the LOTH. There is going to be great stress on suffering out of love.

We can go on with the other schools that follow. About the same time that Francis was emerging, the Carmelite hermits came back from Palestine and from there erupts in Europe, Carmelite spirituality, followed by the Teresian reform, which is contemporary with Ignatius and precedes Francis de Sales by a few decades.

In our modern era we have other spiritual masters. But the two most influential masters of the 20th century are Teresa of Calcutta and John Paul II. They each have a method of prayer and contemplation to teach us. Teresa of Calcutta is very interesting, because she blended Benedict and Francis. John Paul II is also very interesting. He blended Teresa of Avila and Francis de Sales. When you combine certain schools, you actually come up with something very rich.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[holmj2674]

Thank you for that reply JReducation! I am familiar with the history of the desert fathers and the birth of the monastic system, but I will have to check out your take on Mother Theresa and PJPII. I am glad to hear that the Jesus Prayer is in line with a traditional outlook of Catholicism. As a convert to Catholicism I find praying the rosary very uncomfortable on a personal level… I do do the Chaplet of Divine Mercy However. I have tried Lectio Divina, and it is good, but I would like go further in my practice. I love the spirituality and mysticism of St. Francis and I am also very drawn to Meister Eckhart, but I can’t imagine a more traditionalist view of Catholicism has much good to say about him.
It seems to me that contemplation can’t be forced, it is a gift from the Holy Spirit, but a person might “lay the groundwork” for contemplation to take place. I guess this is what I am trying to do. Discursive prayer is good… but it does not fill my thirst for communion with God (perhaps a selfish thought in and of itself!). This road is fraught with many traps and temptations it seems. On one had you have a dry spirituality with a ,mindless going through the motions approach, but on the other hand, modern enthusiasm seems to draw people over the line of Orthodoxy into a nebulous pseudo-Catholic spirituality that is not so good either. I would like to find the fine line between the two.

 

[5Loaves]

It seems to me that contemplation can’t be forced, it is a gift from the Holy Spirit, but a person might “lay the groundwork” for contemplation to take place. I guess this is what I am trying to do…
modern enthusiasm seems to draw people over the line of Orthodoxy into a nebulous pseudo-Catholic spirituality that is not so good either. I would like to find the fine line between the two.

It is always the counsel in the Christian East that one be under the care of a Spiritual Father, or Mother, when seriously engaging in any hesychastic practice. There are various potential dangers one can encounter if not getting regular spiritual direction. JReducation may have something more useful to say on that aspect.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you for that reply JReducation! I am familiar with the history of the desert fathers and the birth of the monastic system, but I will have to check out your take on Mother Theresa and PJPII. I am glad to hear that the Jesus Prayer is in line with a traditional outlook of Catholicism. As a convert to Catholicism I find praying the rosary very uncomfortable on a personal level… I do do the Chaplet of Divine Mercy However. I have tried Lectio Divina, and it is good, but I would like go further in my practice. I love the spirituality and mysticism of St. Francis and I am also very drawn to Meister Eckhart, but I can’t imagine a more traditionalist view of Catholicism has much good to say about him.
It seems to me that contemplation can’t be forced, it is a gift from the Holy Spirit, but a person might “lay the groundwork” for contemplation to take place. I guess this is what I am trying to do. Discursive prayer is good… but it does not fill my thirst for communion with God (perhaps a selfish thought in and of itself!). This road is fraught with many traps and temptations it seems. On one had you have a dry spirituality with a ,mindless going through the motions approach, but on the other hand, modern enthusiasm seems to draw people over the line of Orthodoxy into a nebulous pseudo-Catholic spirituality that is not so good either. I would like to find the fine line between the two.

First of all, let’s get the Meister Eckert myth out of the way. In 1992, there was a letter sent by the Master General of the Dominican Order asking Bl. John Paul II to reinstate Fr. Eckert as a Catholic theologian. The Holy Father responded that there was no need to do so, because Fr. Eckert had never been censored. There were some propositions that he made and that today, most historians have demonstrated that they were misinterpreted and often taken out of context. The Franciscans were sent to investigate Fr. Eckert, but he died before the inquiry was finished. As result, a verdict was never handed down. What really happened was that the Franciscans dropt the case and moved on to the next case. Centuries passed and Meister Eckert’s case was never concluded. That’s that. The Dominicans accept him as an orthodox Catholic theologian and have no restraints from the Church.

Now, let’s look at Bl. John Paul and Bl. Mother Teresa. To understand them and learn from them about the contemplative life, one has to understand that all of us are called a life of contemplation. Contemplation has often been misunderstood to be some advanced state of prayer, which is not the case. Contemplation has stages, but that’s irrelevant to the person of prayer. Those stages are only important to the Spiritual Theologian who has to give a systematic explanation of the development of prayer and the anatomy of the soul. The truth is that there are very few of us who actually specialize in this branch of theology. Most people are interested in ministry and that’s where they go. That’s OK too. The problem has been that because there are few men and women who are “experts” (notice quotation marks) on spiritual theology, the answers that you get from the average priest, deacon, brother or sister are not always most accurate, because they have very little training in this area of theology. It is not a required area for diocesan priests. Religious usually study the spiritual theology of their tradition. Very few study the whole of Spiritual theology. What I’m trying to say is that to learn to contemplate, just look at real contemplatives.

Here is where the Holy Father and Mother Teresa enter the picture. Here you have a man and woman who are our contemporaries. They were very contemplative in a world of noise and distractions. They began with very simple prayer.

Bl. John Paul began with the rosary. He also spent many long hours reading the Carmelite Mystics and Francis de Sales. He would recollect himself to think and pray over what he learned from these spiritual giants. Everyday of his life, he read them, prayed his rosary and spent many hours in silence before the Blessed Sacrament praying over what he learned. In his daily life, he applied what he learned.

Mother did the same, but with Francis and Benedict. She developed a great love for them by reading about them and gradually transitioned to reading their writings and reflecting on them. She would spend hours before the Lord asking him to show her how to live the two fundamental theolgical teachings of Benedict and Francis, hospitality toward the stranger (Benedict) and oneness with the poor and crucified Christ (Francis).

What they teach us is to go from contemplation to daily life and from daily life to contemplation. Just begin to pray. Spend time with Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Pick up one of the masters, be it one of our modern ones, Mother Teresa and John Paul II, or one of the older ones. Just read. Put it down. Reflect on what they are saying. More importantly, ask God to tell you what it is that he’s trying to tell you through them. Then listen in silence. Don’t worry about stages of contemplation. The Holy Spirit will guide you through them. You can’t force yourself to go through them. You can only being to pray.

If one of the spiritual giants, as I call them, does not fit your personality, pick up another. When you find one that speaks to you, whom you can identify with, follow him or her. God does the rest.

 

[JReducation]

I teach our novices a very simple formula. We require that you be a contemplative to make vows in our community. If you’re not a contemplative, you don’t have a Franciscan vocation. The formula is very simple. Begin with the Liturgy, both the Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours. Liturgy is the highest and most perfect form of prayer. It is the only form of prayer of the Church. All other forms of prayer are private devotions. But liturgy is you, prayiing as one organ in the Mystical Body. You can’t get better than that.

The second part of that formula is to listen to the Psalms as you pray them. You’re praising God using his words. His words were meant to speak to you. When necessary, stop and reflect. Then continue. Stop as often as necessary, to hear the voice of Christ.

The third part of this formula is Lectio Divina. You cannot pray with any better source than Sacred Scripture. Read, reflect, listen, talk to the Lord about what you read and what you understand. Ask the Lord to help you understand the scripture as the Church understands it.

Fourth, pray the rosary every day, even if you don’t feel like it. Meditating on the mysteries in the life of Christ while using the words of the scripture, which is what the Ave Maria is, you’re engaging in a powerful dialogue with God.

Fifth, I tell them to be quiet. Once you have prayed the Liturgy of the Mass and Hours, done Lectio, prayed the Rosary, done your spiritual reading, just be quiet. **Walk with the Lord. ** I mean literally. Go for a walk and let God speak. If you are ill or can’t walk for whatever reason, then sit and say only one setence. “Speak Lord, for your servant is listening.” If you do this every day for 15 to 30 minutes, you’ll find that you’re periods of silent time with the Lord get longer without you realizing it.

I know that for a lay person this may be too much in one day, because your schedules often require that you work 40 hrs and care for your families,something which religious don’t do. We don’t work 40 hrs and our families are our religious communities. We have the luxury of time. If you don’t have that, then go slow. Begin with daily mass and silence before the Blessed Sacrament, either before or after mass. Let God do the guiding. But always read the masters, even if it’s just a few minutes a day.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

It is always the counsel in the Christian East that one be under the care of a Spiritual Father, or Mother, when seriously engaging in any hesychastic practice. There are various potential dangers one can encounter if not getting regular spiritual direction. JReducation may have something more useful to say on that aspect.

Spiritual Direction is an ancient ministry and service. It’s not just Christian. It’s Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu and other. Why? Because through history, man has always aspired to reach the Origin, as St. Bonaventure calls God. Whether it’s through Christianity or other, the search is the same, says St. Bonaventure. Therefore, it has been a human practice to go to a master, to sit, listen, expose oneself, listen again.

In the Christian tradition of East and West, we focus on the eternal truth which is Jesus Christ. Because the fulness of Truth subsists in the Catholic Church (East and West together) we understand something that these other traditions do not. Hopefully, they will get there some day, but not today. That’s another story.

We understand the Mystical Body. We know that Christ reveals himself to the Body, not to one person alone. That’s why Paul tells us that Scripture is not for private interpretation. He was speaking to the people of his time about a reality, God speaks through us, not through me. God speaks to us through us. The Spiritual Director serves as the master and guide, just as in any other faith tradition, but we know something else. That is that we, the spiritual director and the directee, are part of the same Mystical Body and Christ promised to be present where two or three were gathered in his name.

Spiritual Director must be a man or woman who is well versed in the spiritual life. Some are well trained in Spiritual Theology, as I have said. However, other people have a natural gift for it. There is no need to ask someone for their degree and grades in theology to use them as a director. What is important is that there is a chemistry between you and the director. If there is no chemistry, it will be harder to open up to someone that you don’t trust or that does not make you feel comfortable. It is also very important that this person be well formed in moral theology, because so much of our spiritual life is about matters of conscience.

To conclude, the spiritual director servers two functions. He/she is the master/guide, as in all faith traditions. Secondly, together with us, he discerns. Because Christ speaks to us through us.

Even the great saints did not go at it alone. They always had a spiritual director. The spiritual director has a spiritual director and as you go outward, you become part of a web called the Church. It may be you and the director alone in a space, but you’re really part of a Body.

Why would anyone want to seek Christ and want to be in communion with others? The relationship with the Church through a spiritual director just makes sense.

Put aside the Traditionalist, liberal, orthodox, neo-whatever labels. The spiritual life is not about labels. It’s about a journey. There is a wonderful book written by St. Bonaventure in which he describes the journey of St. Francis’ soul. But it has become a classic in spiritual direction, because Francis’ journey is really the journey of every soul. It’s called the Itinerarium or The Soul’s Journey Into the Mind of God. You can find it online.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Julia_Mae]

As someone who would like to expand their spiritual practice and seek greater unity with the indwelling trinity I am having a hard time finding practices that aren’t condemned in one way or another. I have settled on the Jesus Prayer as the method that seems best, although i am sure there is probably something wrong with that too.

Soon after I came into the Church, maybe withing weeks, I felt a strong interior call to do contemplative prayer. My RCIA sponsor advised against it, though she was charismatic herself. She said I needed a spiritual director. I was new and shy and had no idea what that was but found out you had to pay them. I was also poor. I’m not sure you have to pay your own Pastor, anyway. I was really new.

But I did find a $3 copy of The Cloud of Unknowing Evelyn Underhill edition from the 1940s. (They had no idea what it was worth, they’d stuck it in the Jewish section) Mostly, I just had to. I did what it said. I did it in the church, about three feet from the tabernacle (we had a prayer place there) at noon when no one was around. I highly recommend it if you feel called.

Here’s the thing though. Find a spiritual director. Stuff happens. I had read so much about it beforehand that the “stuff” didn’t faze me too much but… seriously, tell your pastor if you want to start this just so you have someone to check in with. Keep a journal, too.

I had to stop because it got to be too big for me to handle alone. I do not regret doing this at all, I think I really needed all the “downloads,” as I call them. And, now we have a new pastor and I’m going to start up again soon, but I’'m talking to him first.

But I’ll tell you something else. This is an exceptionally powerful form of prayer if you can do it. And I think, right now in history, we need every bit of prayer and devotion we can get. It needs commitment. Don’t even start unless you can commit to it. But if you feel called…

Really, talk to your pastor. Also, I think there’ s a group I saw here for it on CAF.

 

[RaphaelJ]

I don’t get it… Is there a way to be a contemplative person if you are just a lay? I mean, it’s somewhat hard… I really enjoy meditating on the sacred mysteries and thinking about them because I’m more of an intellectual. Sometimes I wonder whether I should just go to a monastery… But then, I’m worried about what might happen if those that are truly serious about their faith were away and not with the world.

 

[holmj2674]

Thanks again JReducation! I enjoyed your posts a great deal.
The Cloud of Unknowing is a source document for one of the methods that shall go un-named in this post - I have not read it - but I do have Evelyn Underhill’s 1911 Mysticism.

RaphaelJ - I believe that every Christian is called to contemplation as part of our journey to the beatific vision. The caveat is we are called in relationship to our capacity. As a lay person there is no way I am going to achieve high levels of interior prayer… but that doesn’t mean I can’t try

 

[JReducation]

I don’t get it… Is there a way to be a contemplative person if you are just a lay? I mean, it’s somewhat hard… I really enjoy meditating on the sacred mysteries and thinking about them because I’m more of an intellectual. Sometimes I wonder whether I should just go to a monastery… But then, I’m worried about what might happen if those that are truly serious about their faith were away and not with the world.

No no no . . . don’t sell the laity short.

There have been many great contemplatives among the laity. I think the problem is that too often people describe contemplation as something that it’s not. They end up associating it with the monastic life.

The truth is that most Catholics are not monastics (monks or nuns). Most Catholics are involved in the activities of the secular world in one way or another, whether you’re a priest, deacon, religious, mom, dad or single person. We’re all involved in the secular world from the moment we wake up to the time we go to bed. Yet, if you observe, many men and women are people who have deep life of prayer. They take their prayer into their daily activity and they bring their daily activity to prayer.

All of those wonderful things that we read in spirituality books about contemplative prayer are analyses. The truth is that we don’t realize that we’re going through the movements of prayer. The writers put into words what is happening in the life of prayer, which most of us don’t notice.

If you take people like Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, you will not find a busier person than she was. The woman spent hours working and yet, we you examine her life very carefully, you find that everything she did, prayed through it. She was a true contemplative who lived a very hectic life; but she was very much in touch with God.

She would sit before him in the Blessed Sacrament and talk to him about her life, her work, the poor, her sisters and the things that were on her mind and God. At other times, she would just sit and ask him to lead her and to come be her light. She felt nothing except darkness. She had no clue that she was growing in prayer. The Holy Spirit was leading her each step of the way and she was going higher and higher.

Just begin to pray. As I always say, the most noble and most perfect form of prayer is the combination of the Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours. Many people underestimate the Liturgy of the Hours, because their looking for something that feels more transcendent. The fact is that you can’t get much more transcendent that praying to God with his own words. The psalms themselves speak to us. That’s why they have been part of our Judeo - Christian tradition since the time of David.

Don’t think that a lay person cannot be a contemplative. Look at Catherine of Siena. She was a lay woman, not a religious. She had no clue that she was a contemplative or a mystic. She just went through the daily motions of praying and working. She would speak to her spiritual director about what she experienced. It was her spiritual director who realized that she was having mystical experiences. Catherine didn’t have a clue what it was all about. She knew that she loved God and he loved her and they spoke to each other. It all began with the Eucharist and the Office of the Paters, because she did not learn to read until she was in her 20s. I believe late 20s. She made the effort to learn to read, because she wanted to use the breviary.

So, if you have not started praying the LOTH, begin with that and daily mass. God will lead from there.

Thanks again JReducation! I enjoyed your posts a great deal.
The Cloud of Unknowing is a source document for one of the methods that shall go un-named in this post - I have not read it - but I do have Evelyn Underhill’s 1911 Mysticism.

RaphaelJ - I believe that every Christian is called to contemplation as part of our journey to the beatific vision. The caveat is we are called in relationship to our capacity. As a lay person there is no way I am going to achieve high levels of interior prayer… but that doesn’t mean I can’t try

The Cloud of Unknowing is a wonderful spiritual work. We did a lot of work with it in post graduate theology. For me, the greatest part of that work is the title. In prayer, you enter into a relationship with a friend whom you thought you knew very well and with a self whom you think you know. As you go along, you realize that you don’t know as much as you think You don’t really know God as he truly is. You don’t even know yourself too well. Things become clearer as we pray. Yet, at the same time, we seem to go deeper and deeper into a cloud without knowing where we’re going. However, we simply trust God and we follow along.

I repeat, the high level of interior prayer are not reserved for religious. Look at Catherine, Thomas More, Elizabeth of Hungary, King Louis IX, Catherine de Hueck Doherty and many other laymen and women. These folks reach great heights in prayer. One of the wonderful books that I read in my younger years was written by Catherine de Hueck Doherty, Journey to the Lonely Christ.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[FurtherSuntime]

No no no . . . don’t sell the laity short.

There have been many great contemplatives among the laity. I think the problem is that too often people describe contemplation as something that it’s not. They end up associating it with the monastic life.

The truth is that most Catholics are not monastics (monks or nuns). Most Catholics are involved in the activities of the secular world in one way or another, whether you’re a priest, deacon, religious, mom, dad or single person. We’re all involved in the secular world from the moment we wake up to the time we go to bed. Yet, if you observe, many men and women are people who have deep life of prayer. They take their prayer into their daily activity and they bring their daily activity to prayer.

All of those wonderful things that we read in spirituality books about contemplative prayer are analyses. The truth is that we don’t realize that we’re going through the movements of prayer. The writers put into words what is happening in the life of prayer, which most of us don’t notice.

If you take people like Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, you will not find a busier person than she was. The woman spent hours working and yet, we you examine her life very carefully, you find that everything she did, prayed through it. She was a true contemplative who lived a very hectic life; but she was very much in touch with God.

She would sit before him in the Blessed Sacrament and talk to him about her life, her work, the poor, her sisters and the things that were on her mind and God. At other times, she would just sit and ask him to lead her and to come be her light. She felt nothing except darkness. She had no clue that she was growing in prayer. The Holy Spirit was leading her each step of the way and she was going higher and higher.

Just begin to pray. As I always say, the most noble and most perfect form of prayer is the combination of the Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours. Many people underestimate the Liturgy of the Hours, because their looking for something that feels more transcendent. The fact is that you can’t get much more transcendent that praying to God with his own words. The psalms themselves speak to us. That’s why they have been part of our Judeo - Christian tradition since the time of David.

Don’t think that a lay person cannot be a contemplative. Look at Catherine of Siena. She was a lay woman, not a religious. She had no clue that she was a contemplative or a mystic. She just went through the daily motions of praying and working. She would speak to her spiritual director about what she experienced. It was her spiritual director who realized that she was having mystical experiences. Catherine didn’t have a clue what it was all about. She knew that she loved God and he loved her and they spoke to each other. It all began with the Eucharist and the Office of the Paters, because she did not learn to read until she was in her 20s. I believe late 20s. She made the effort to learn to read, because she wanted to use the breviary.

So, if you have not started praying the LOTH, begin with that and daily mass. God will lead from there.

The Cloud of Unknowing is a wonderful spiritual work. We did a lot of work with it in post graduate theology. For me, the greatest part of that work is the title. In prayer, you enter into a relationship with a friend whom you thought you knew very well and with a self whom you think you know. As you go along, you realize that you don’t know as much as you think You don’t really know God as he truly is. You don’t even know yourself too well. Things become clearer as we pray. Yet, at the same time, we seem to go deeper and deeper into a cloud without knowing where we’re going. However, we simply trust God and we follow along.

I repeat, the high level of interior prayer are not reserved for religious. Look at Catherine, Thomas More, Elizabeth of Hungary, King Louis IX, Catherine de Hueck Doherty and many other laymen and women. These folks reach great heights in prayer. One of the wonderful books that I read in my younger years was written by Catherine de Hueck Doherty, Journey to the Lonely Christ.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Very interesting, I’m confused about something and its not in any way meant to sound challenging. In the history of prayer and mysticism we come upon happenings in the Saints life.
Often a vision is reported , how can it be or perhaps I’m not aware , that there is no vision in any way which is an understanding of God himself? I would like to find out more about this.

 

[JReducation]

Very interesting, I’m confused about something and its not in any way meant to sound challenging. In the history of prayer and mysticism we come upon happenings in the Saints life.
Often a vision is reported , how can it be or perhaps I’m not aware , that there is no vision in any way which is an understanding of God himself? I would like to find out more about this.

Scripture tells us that no one can see the face of God and live. I don’t think that it means to say that if we see God as he really is we’re going to be zapped out of existence. What it means to tell us is that man in incapable of seeing the totatlity of who God is and what God is. God is infinite. The human mind cannot capture the infinite in one glimpse, even though a vision. Therefore, every vision that has ever been reported has always been about specific historical or personal situation in which God allows us to see what we need to see for that particular situation.

For example, St. Faustina’s visions took place during a time when the world needed the message of mercy. The world was between two world wars, colonization was causing civil wars in Africa, South America, and Asia. Communism was on the rise in the East and Capitalism in the west. All of these were oposing forces that would turn man against man and the mystery of love and mercy would be cast aside.

Sister Faustina had no clue about any of this. She was simple young woman. But God used her to bring the world back to his mercy, to accept his mercy and to bring his mercy to others. Thta’s how visions work. That’s why you have many saints who never had visions, because they were not needed. We know that Bl. John Henry Newman, Bl. John XXIII and Bl. John Paul II never had visions. However, they did have inspirations. God inspired them to deliver a message to the world that the world needed a that time. This wouldn’t happen without an intense life of prayer.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

I teach our novices a very simple formula. We require that you be a contemplative to make vows in our community. If you’re not a contemplative, you don’t have a Franciscan vocation. The formula is very simple. Begin with the Liturgy, both the Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours. Liturgy is the highest and most perfect form of prayer. It is the only form of prayer of the Church. All other forms of prayer are private devotions. But liturgy is you, prayiing as one organ in the Mystical Body. You can’t get better than that.

The second part of that formula is to listen to the Psalms as you pray them. You’re praising God using his words. His words were meant to speak to you. When necessary, stop and reflect. Then continue. Stop as often as necessary, to hear the voice of Christ.

The third part of this formula is Lectio Divina. You cannot pray with any better source than Sacred Scripture. Read, reflect, listen, talk to the Lord about what you read and what you understand. Ask the Lord to help you understand the scripture as the Church understands it.

Fourth, pray the rosary every day, even if you don’t feel like it. Meditating on the mysteries in the life of Christ while using the words of the scripture, which is what the Ave Maria is, you’re engaging in a powerful dialogue with God.

Fifth, I tell them to be quiet. Once you have prayed the Liturgy of the Mass and Hours, done Lectio, prayed the Rosary, done your spiritual reading, just be quiet. **Walk with the Lord. ** I mean literally. Go for a walk and let God speak. If you are ill or can’t walk for whatever reason, then sit and say only one setence. “Speak Lord, for your servant is listening.” If you do this every day for 15 to 30 minutes, you’ll find that you’re periods of silent time with the Lord get longer without you realizing it.

I know that for a lay person this may be too much in one day, because your schedules often require that you work 40 hrs and care for your families,something which religious don’t do. We don’t work 40 hrs and our families are our religious communities. We have the luxury of time. If you don’t have that, then go slow. Begin with daily mass and silence before the Blessed Sacrament, either before or after mass. Let God do the guiding. But always read the masters, even if it’s just a few minutes a day.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Awesome and very inspiring!

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Scripture tells us that no one can see the face of God and live. I don’t think that it means to say that if we see God as he really is we’re going to be zapped out of existence. What it means to tell us is that man in incapable of seeing the totatlity of who God is and what God is. God is infinite. The human mind cannot capture the infinite in one glimpse, even though a vision. Therefore, every vision that has ever been reported has always been about specific historical or personal situation in which God allows us to see what we need to see for that particular situation.

For example, St. Faustina’s visions took place during a time when the world needed the message of mercy. The world was between two world wars, colonization was causing civil wars in Africa, South America, and Asia. Communism was on the rise in the East and Capitalism in the west. All of these were oposing forces that would turn man against man and the mystery of love and mercy would be cast aside.

Sister Faustina had no clue about any of this. She was simple young woman. But God used her to bring the world back to his mercy, to accept his mercy and to bring his mercy to others. Thta’s how visions work. That’s why you have many saints who never had visions, because they were not needed. We know that Bl. John Henry Newman, Bl. John XXIII and Bl. John Paul II never had visions. However, they did have inspirations. God inspired them to deliver a message to the world that the world needed a that time. This wouldn’t happen without an intense life of prayer.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

What exactly are you talking about by introducing two examples of apparitions and then saying

…“This wouldn’t happen without an intense life of prayer”…

Of course we all know many stories, one of course is the Fatima story where the three children before seeing the initial angel, were actually missing a decade or two in their daily rosary.
The beautiful story goes on to be one of the most magnificent miracles known to mankind.

As we know, at that time and in keeping with many other such occasions in these heavenly visits , there would have been litterally thousands of existing Monks, Nuns in what you explain to be"intense life of prayer"
Obviously due to the nature of a full six apparitions in the Fatima story as well the last rather large showing, an emphasis on validity was not an issue relative to heavens design in the
whole given happening. Location also was not an issue. The only issue left is “who” the seer’s
would ultimately be.
The array of mystics would have been countless, this is true in other factual enlightenments as well.
You have made a direct statement on behalf of your translation of the Church which represents God which is clearly in errorand absolutely false and misleading. in many ill-understood ways.

The only way such an error could take place is by not knowing what the soul is comprised of
and simply guessing the relevence of mystical life relative to the actual qualitative value of the soul…
What is your description of the soul and the relationship with both the conscious and unconscious mind, include conscience, the immediate will, free will & grace.

Before gathering an answer of above , don’t forget the quote" We must become as childen to enter the Kingdom"

I am very disturbed with the comprehension level in this forum. The biological immediate will ego… is alive and well. I am winding down my posts here as the exchange in context has become adamant in error in spite of logic…

The telling componant of your entry is that the bulk of the communication had nothing what so ever to do with my question or topic and everything to do with setting up your illogical
false summation

“This wouldn’t happen without an intense life of prayer”…

Thankyou

 

[JReducation]

What exactly are you talking about by introducing two examples of apparitions and then saying

…“This wouldn’t happen without an intense life of prayer”…

Of course we all know many stories, one of course is the Fatima story where the three children before seeing the initial angel, were actually missing a decade or two in their daily rosary.
The beautiful story goes on to be one of the most magnificent miracles known to mankind.

As we know, at that time and in keeping with many other such occasions in these heavenly visits , there would have been litterally thousands of existing Monks, Nuns in what you explain to be"intense life of prayer"
Obviously due to the nature of a full six apparitions in the Fatima story as well the last rather large showing, an emphasis on validity was not an issue relative to heavens design in the
whole given happening. Location also was not an issue. The only issue left is “who” the seer’s
would ultimately be.
The array of mystics would have been countless, this is true in other factual enlightenments as well.
You have made a direct statement on behalf of your translation of the Church which represents God which is clearly in errorand absolutely false and misleading. in many ill-understood ways.

The only way such an error could take place is by not knowing what the soul is comprised of
and simply guessing the relevence of mystical life relative to the actual qualitative value of the soul…
What is your description of the soul and the relationship with both the conscious and unconscious mind, include conscience, the immediate will, free will & grace.

Before gathering an answer of above , don’t forget the quote" We must become as childen to enter the Kingdom"

I am very disturbed with the comprehension level in this forum. The biological immediate will ego… is alive and well. I am winding down my posts here as the exchange in context has become adamant in error in spite of logic…

The telling componant of your entry is that the bulk of the communication had nothing what so ever to do with my question or topic and everything to do with setting up your illogical
false summation

“This wouldn’t happen without an intense life of prayer”…

Thankyou

I think you missed the entire paragraph.

I’m speaking about men and women who did not see visions, but were deeply inspired by God to bring a message to the world. The message was delivered in the context of an intense life of prayer. There is nothing erroneous about that. In fact, it’s a very common concept in Christian Spirituality. God speaks through prayer. The extraordinary events are just that, extraordinary. They are not the usual means that God uses to speak to man. Whereas, prayer is an ordinary means. You may find the Franciscan mystics very interesting in this regard. They focus a great deal on the relationship of prayer and mission.

You may enjoy Journey of the Mind into God, The Third Spiritual Alphabet, and The Disciple and the Master or the essays of St. Maximilian Kolbe. They’re probably more clear than I am explaining the relationship between prayer and mission or being sent with a message to the world.

We have to be very careful not to be too quick to jump and accuse another person of error. The better way to approach such a situation is to ask for a clarification. Often, the problem is one of language. Either the speaker was not clear enough, because he assumes that his audience understands or the audience misunderstood the speaker. When we jump to accuse, we cut off the channel of dialogue. The Church does not operate that way. She tries to understand by asking as many questions as possible and answering as many as possible.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF