Contemplation and Mysticism

[hazcompat]

The theist cannot trump up consciousness , turn around and deny its role in the same sentence. Some degree of common sense is required…

I am not denying its role, I’m considering the sequence of operations. btw I went through my Esoteric Buddhist phase in 1977. (again no intent to offend).

peace

 

[JReducation]

Jreducation

St. José María’s approach is not new. It’s very classic. Many people find it difficult to appreciate, because the language that he uses is very contemporary. But when you see it as he lived it and as his followers live it you can’t help see Benedictine, Franciscan and Carmelite elements. To understand him, one must begin with a clear understanding that this was a secular man. He has to take these paradigms out of the conventual context and apply them in the secular context. The language is going to change as the context changes, but the concept is the same. It’s very orthodox.

F Suntime

I see a more clear to the point approach is required.
I asked a question about the nature of Gods association with humanity and why visions have been reported re Saints, Jesus Mary, and if you were aware of any with respects to God himself.
You explained no, and offered possible reasoning. Then you gave a few examples in extraordinary happenings and included that these events are
only possible in the occasion of a believer who is engaged in, intense prayer. I argued logically on behalf of the Fatima Story. As well added
the approach within St Jose and opus dei suggesting a worthy approach to prayer in a day to day life application

In return you chose to ignore my interesting observations

Instead above you go on to discuss that the idea of opus dei is not new. Ok, whats that got to do with the observation I was bringing forward ? Why are you formulating a suggestive that I am arguing that opus dei is not a new idea? Clearly the opus dei approach cannot be translated onto a category of intense prayer as it is a daily initiative offering an ambiance in presence of mind. Once developed the life is the prayer. The prayer you refer to “intense prayer” is non-applicable . A person cannot be in a state of intensity 24-7. The implied idea that intense prayer is a plateau using happenings is illogical. We know this… if you want to skirt around avoiding being wrong-in a post thats fine,although…if your going to use parts of the argument to mis-represent myself in a mis-leading manner , I will speak to it .
.
JReducation

Good gravy! Never depend on any dictionary to understand theology. Dictionaries will always give you the most common usage. To understand how theology uses a word or phrase, use the writings themselves and take the meaning from the context.

F Suntime

Good baloney… This is not a theology book written in 1242. the context is this forum and on-going (for the moment) discussion. Also, its natural to
adjust in older books, run on sentence’s historical events, all contribute in extracting the baloney from the gravy.

The next post looks more interesting…I was reading your thoughts re Pope John Paul and Mother Theresa.

How can you affirm the on-goings of another’s mind to the point where you think you know why a persons is grunting or what have you. How do you also know that the Pope did not nod off waiting for St Theresa , woke and decided not to interrupt her praying?

I know many that can nod off sitting down after lunch. In fact I used to play a little game with some of the people I knew who would be prone to falling asleep sitting up… I would tell a story , a softer easy going story and use my voice and timing to see if I could directly cause. Using these imagined physic powers as apparatus for added understanding in the interior life is not wise, much less someone else’s state of soul.

In the imaginative suggestion having this ability, when confronted with what may wrongly appear to be a sinner, the mind thinks it has this power and erroneous evaluation is inevitable. A harmful projection of suggestion at an unconscious level…this can become a habitual practice
I would recommend a thread called… Be warned and Believe what you Truly Will.right here in this forum

Thats enough for me today, its lovely out , peace enjoy the day and maybe I’ll be bk Monday…Ive had enough of defending myself for a good few days…all from a simple question…life is what it is I suppose… can’t see much reason to return.
Must be cheerful, we were meant to be cheerful…cheers!

Oh I see a couple more interesting posts:thumbsup:

If I’m not answering your questions, it’s probably because I’m answering what I think you’re asking.

You can help by making the question concrete.

Thanks

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

there is a remnant left in the interior intellect which the mind uses. Irrespective of cognitive capacity. Contemplation happens in time. The mystical in “no time”.

peace

This is correct. It is from this remnant or trace as I like to call it, that the Masters are able to put together their theology. Even there, St. Therese once said that it was too big to put into words. Sometimes the reality is beyond what the individual can express in words. My take on that is that one of two things happens.

It is possible that the remnant is in the interior intellect, but the mind cannot explain all of what is there.

The other thing that I have often thought about is that maybe even the interior intellect cannot capture the whole reality, because it beyond our capacity.

I’m not sure that we will ever know for sure which one it is until we die and go to heaven.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[FurtherSuntime]

JReducation

]You have to be careful not to give man too much control. There is a point in contemplation where the individual must release control and where God takes over the imagination and speaks through it to the man or woman of prayer. As he progresses, even the imagination no longer works and God speaks directly to the soul, but the individual does not always know what transpires between the soul and God. Bonaventure, Catherine and Teresa make this very clear in their writings.

FS,

Smoothing over error and railroading the realities is ridiculous. For example. Without the consciousness imaginative and creative thought , the above Saints would not even be able to comprehend that anything in fact was speaking directly to the soul, once this apparent stage is
in motion. Do you see where all this non-sense in avoidance gets you…?

JReducation

Yeah, the allows is not exactly what happens. Human freedom is needed to consent to God’s opeation. How God operates is up to God.

FS

If you guys are going to pick and choose words in order to argue or what have you, the
fall from reason will become that much more evident. Consciousness is a reality, it permits
spirituality…permit, allows, makes able. …

I can clearly see my help in explaining is much needed.

I have an exciting responsibility ahead and need to get the show on the road without delay

Enjoy the evening and peace.

 

[hazcompat]

This is correct. It is from this remnant or trace as I like to call it, that the Masters are able to put together their theology. Even there, St. Therese once said that it was too big to put into words. Sometimes the reality is beyond what the individual can express in words. My take on that is that one of two things happens.

It is possible that the remnant is in the interior intellect, but the mind cannot explain all of what is there.

The other thing that I have often thought about is that maybe even the interior intellect cannot capture the whole reality, because it beyond our capacity.

I’m not sure that we will ever know for sure which one it is until we die and go to heaven.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

God Speed.

peace

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I am not denying its role, I’m considering the sequence of operations. btw I went through my Esoteric Buddhist phase in 1977. (again no intent to offend).

peace

Can you please desist in adding the suggestive phrase …no intent to offend?
You are not offending myself with your commentary because,

1. there is never an explanation to what your talking about…
2. re-arranging phrase’s as above,
3. selecting sentence’s and arranging into desired context,
4. failing to reply to entries

Here are all three entries directed at myself

A)…Individual creativity?..God said…He said WHAT? All is grace.

B)…This is the day the Lord has made… The creative mind allows? Seems like the tail wagging the dog?

C)…No need to be defensive. Have you read the Tao of Pooh? Your exits are Poohish…no offense intended.

Except for the last comment, which I replied to, your writing style is strange to myself and
it is not possible to follow the (name removed by moderator)ut without proper sentence’s ect.

if I inserted “no intent to offend” it would be arrogantly presumptuous in a suggestive misleading manner of overt self righteousness… as you may have an explanation for all 4 complaints above. I can try to clarify if required

 

[Julia_Mae]

I remember seein Bl. John Paul several times at prayer. My first time was a WYD in Denver.

During WYD in Denver, I was a spiritually lost nominally Protestant single mom of a teen-aged girl living one and a half blocks from East High School, which is where his helicopter picked him up and dropped him off as I believe he was staying at The Basilica of the Immaculate Conception a mile down the street.

That helicopter was loud. One time as it was landing, and it always seemed to fly right overhead, I had a thought from out of the blue: he’s here for you.

Wow, how nuts is that? I mean, I was very startled by such a weird thought. I didn’t even notice it was in 2nd person. I was very not-Catholic. There was going to be a “parade” I guess, anyway, the Pope going through downtown and people lining the streets and I had the thought that if I went there and he saw me he’d recognize me.

HOLY COW WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU?

I didn’t even know his name. Srsly. I hate crowds. Hated parades of any kind. Still, I had to talk myself into staying away. I was having no stuff in my life about finding a church or anything, not reading anything religious, just nothing to generate these weird ideas.

He left. I felt bad, like I missed some huge opportunity. I should have gone that last time, over to the school. No, no are you crazy?

But that started my completely unreasonable urge to become Catholic. Also stupid. *You don’t know anything about it how can you want to be Catholic? *I was beginning to worry about my mental health. That idea would come back, though.

It took a few years. When I finally walked into a parish office and asked how you get to be Catholic, I still hadn’t actually been to a Mass. I just quit fighting it and knew. I had to.

That JPII. He sure can pray.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Freducation

The context is our daily life. One can mimic the method, but the fact that I’m not Francis or Teresa, but Me, right there the context changes.

Correct me if I’m misunderstanding you. We do help ourselves to what has been handed down, but it is not always possible to contribute anything new, because Truth does not change. So much of these teachings are absolute truth. One can see it when one holds it up against the tradition of scripture and the Church. We can express it in different social and cultural contexts, but we can’t improve on truth.

FS

My opinion is that the faith is not like some kind of universal abstract free will but particular to the individual .A person, leader or the race does not have this kind of faith from the womb, and to confuse the two is a grand error.It is to actually bring Plato into the salvation event for the single individual.

We know that man has come to be man in roughly 60 million yrs from simple mammal. We also know that our Sun is fueled to support our setting for 5 billion more years.

In time man or evolved man, will exist in absolute peace and unity. The natural progression toward understood and already accepted ingredients required in survival (peace harmony ect) is a certainty in time, providing life on earth continues.

In honesty I cannot put limitations on creation , thus limit God.

God will remain to be God. Man will not remain to be man in thought, ability, self reflection ect. Interestingly Scripture is well capable in remaining free from loss in value in available translations. Almost all in Scripture peace, sacrifice, charity are capable in value toward an extremely harmonious future biological existence.

A higher biological race which exists in harmony which we ourselves may not even be able to comprehend, cannot logically entertain a God who would design an eternal torture chamber in consequence. It is utterly impossible, however all in Creation in all time pray to the same God. The future will interpret as we interpret, in ways they are able to understand.

If all that remains on earth is 75,000 yrs, I believe the highest
mystical understandings we have will always show absolute truth in objective peace , unity, charity, however the steps you mention include a questionable certainty in an uncertain translation of consequence.

I believe in this regard the “absolute” truth you speak to, cannot be rationally considered. I may be wrong, I do not know, but the un-movable suggestion is irrational as understandings in nature God are not un-movable.

Thankyou and the busy week is ahead.

 

[hazcompat]

Can you please desist in adding the suggestive phrase …no intent to offend?
You are not offending myself with your commentary because,

1. there is never an explanation to what your talking about…
2. re-arranging phrase’s as above,
3. selecting sentence’s and arranging into desired context,
4. failing to reply to entries

Here are all three entries directed at myself

A)…Individual creativity?..God said…He said WHAT? All is grace.

B)…This is the day the Lord has made… The creative mind allows? Seems like the tail wagging the dog?

C)…No need to be defensive. Have you read the Tao of Pooh? Your exits are Poohish…no offense intended.

Except for the last comment, which I replied to, your writing style is strange to myself and
it is not possible to follow the (name removed by moderator)ut without proper sentence’s ect.

if I inserted “no intent to offend” it would be arrogantly presumptuous in a suggestive misleading manner of overt self righteousness… as you may have an explanation for all 4 complaints above. I can try to clarify if required

ahh…i see. i apologize for situations and assumptions. As an example use B)… and your post #52. I viewed it as a conversation and meant I understood everything, but questioned the idea that the creative mind allowed spirituality. In fact it seems to me the opposite, hence the tail/dog thing. I appreciate your observations and will use my age as explanation of 1, 2, and 3. hoping this post improves complaint #4.

peace

 

[holmj2674]

During WYD in Denver, I was a spiritually lost nominally Protestant single mom of a teen-aged girl living one and a half blocks from East High School, which is where his helicopter picked him up and dropped him off as I believe he was staying at The Basilica of the Immaculate Conception a mile down the street.

That helicopter was loud. One time as it was landing, and it always seemed to fly right overhead, I had a thought from out of the blue: he’s here for you.

Wow, how nuts is that? I mean, I was very startled by such a weird thought. I didn’t even notice it was in 2nd person. I was very not-Catholic. There was going to be a “parade” I guess, anyway, the Pope going through downtown and people lining the streets and I had the thought that if I went there and he saw me he’d recognize me.

HOLY COW WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU?

I didn’t even know his name. Srsly. I hate crowds. Hated parades of any kind. Still, I had to talk myself into staying away. I was having no stuff in my life about finding a church or anything, not reading anything religious, just nothing to generate these weird ideas.

He left. I felt bad, like I missed some huge opportunity. I should have gone that last time, over to the school. No, no are you crazy?

But that started my completely unreasonable urge to become Catholic. Also stupid. *You don’t know anything about it how can you want to be Catholic? *I was beginning to worry about my mental health. That idea would come back, though.

It took a few years. When I finally walked into a parish office and asked how you get to be Catholic, I still hadn’t actually been to a Mass. I just quit fighting it and knew. I had to.

That JPII. He sure can pray.

That’s a great story. If you feel a special connection to PJPII I highly recommend his writings, especially Crossing the Threshold of Hope.

 

[JReducation]

During WYD in Denver, I was a spiritually lost nominally Protestant single mom of a teen-aged girl living one and a half blocks from East High School, which is where his helicopter picked him up and dropped him off as I believe he was staying at The Basilica of the Immaculate Conception a mile down the street.

That helicopter was loud. One time as it was landing, and it always seemed to fly right overhead, I had a thought from out of the blue: he’s here for you.

Wow, how nuts is that? I mean, I was very startled by such a weird thought. I didn’t even notice it was in 2nd person. I was very not-Catholic. There was going to be a “parade” I guess, anyway, the Pope going through downtown and people lining the streets and I had the thought that if I went there and he saw me he’d recognize me.

HOLY COW WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU?

I didn’t even know his name. Srsly. I hate crowds. Hated parades of any kind. Still, I had to talk myself into staying away. I was having no stuff in my life about finding a church or anything, not reading anything religious, just nothing to generate these weird ideas.

He left. I felt bad, like I missed some huge opportunity. I should have gone that last time, over to the school. No, no are you crazy?

But that started my completely unreasonable urge to become Catholic. Also stupid. *You don’t know anything about it how can you want to be Catholic? *I was beginning to worry about my mental health. That idea would come back, though.

It took a few years. When I finally walked into a parish office and asked how you get to be Catholic, I still hadn’t actually been to a Mass. I just quit fighting it and knew. I had to.

That JPII. He sure can pray.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/rusha/imoksmiley.gif

He was an incredible man of prayer. Everyone who knew him closely commented about this while he was still alive. There are stories that he would go into the chapel in his apartment and would miss meals or an appointment. When they entered the chapel, they would hear this groaning, as if he were physically there, but spiritually in another space. This same phenomenon has been reported about Mother Teresa, Teresa of Avila, Francis of Assisi, John of the Cross and Padre Pio.

When they took the testimonies for his canonization, this was one point that was repeated over and over again. They cannot tell us who said what, because that’s a canonical secret. But they can tell us what they learned about the man. This is one thing that is often mentioned. TIME did a nice special edition about him and this is one of the points that is repeated.

 

[JReducation]

Freducation

The context is our daily life. One can mimic the method, but the fact that I’m not Francis or Teresa, but Me, right there the context changes.

Correct me if I’m misunderstanding you. We do help ourselves to what has been handed down, but it is not always possible to contribute anything new, because Truth does not change. So much of these teachings are absolute truth. One can see it when one holds it up against the tradition of scripture and the Church. We can express it in different social and cultural contexts, but we can’t improve on truth.

FS

My opinion is that the faith is not like some kind of universal abstract free will but particular to the individual .A person, leader or the race does not have this kind of faith from the womb, and to confuse the two is a grand error.It is to actually bring Plato into the salvation event for the single individual.

We know that man has come to be man in roughly 60 million yrs from simple mammal. We also know that our Sun is fueled to support our setting for 5 billion more years.

In time man or evolved man, will exist in absolute peace and unity. The natural progression toward understood and already accepted ingredients required in survival (peace harmony ect) is a certainty in time, providing life on earth continues.

In honesty I cannot put limitations on creation , thus limit God.

God will remain to be God. Man will not remain to be man in thought, ability, self reflection ect. Interestingly Scripture is well capable in remaining free from loss in value in available translations. Almost all in Scripture peace, sacrifice, charity are capable in value toward an extremely harmonious future biological existence.

A higher biological race which exists in harmony which we ourselves may not even be able to comprehend, cannot logically entertain a God who would design an eternal torture chamber in consequence. It is utterly impossible, however all in Creation in all time pray to the same God. The future will interpret as we interpret, in ways they are able to understand.

If all that remains on earth is 75,000 yrs, I believe the highest
mystical understandings we have will always show absolute truth in objective peace , unity, charity, however the steps you mention include a questionable certainty in an uncertain translation of consequence.

I believe in this regard the “absolute” truth you speak to, cannot be rationally considered. I may be wrong, I do not know, but the un-movable suggestion is irrational as understandings in nature God are not un-movable.

Thankyou and the busy week is ahead.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that man changes. This is true.

However, we have to be careful how we say this. Man changes, but truth does not. What changes is how we explain truth. The Church accepts the teachings of the Spiritual Masters as truth. That’s why they’re called Masters. Some have actually been called Teachers (Doctores). Additionally, some are also fathers or mothers of a religious family. These families are grounded in the teachings and experience of their patriarchs and matriarchs.

For example, the Rule of St. Francis is not up for debate. It has been sealed with a Papal Bull. The Franciscan family can change and add anything related to temporal matters, but nothing concerning the life of prayer, the method of prayer and the goal of prayer that is in the rule, the Testament and the admonitions can be changed. Only a pope can change that. No pope has ever touched it in 800 years. The policy has been that if you join this family, this is the form that you will follow. You may not bring anything new into the life of prayer of the Franciscan tradition. You may bring in new forms, but not a new theology of prayer or a theology from another school. You would transplant the Ignatian Exercises into a Franciscan house. However, an individual Franciscan can certainly go through them.

This is also true for the Benedictines, Discalced Carmelites, Carthusians, and the Exercises of St. Ignatius. These teachings are considered to be truth and truth cannot be improved.

Man changes, truth does not. Truth must inform man, not the other way around. As man changes, he must adjust to remain within the parameters of truth.

There is another reality that cannot be dismissed. We cannot handcuff God. God can raise other schools of spirituality. One of the criteria that the Church uses to assess these new schools is by using the already accepted schools as a backdrop, almost like a ruler. When there is nothing in these new school that is contrary to the accepted schools, nor contrary to the scriptures or contrary to the Magisterium, then it is accepted as a gift of the Holy Spirit. That’s how we came to have such a rich diversity of schools of spirituality. None of them contradict each other. Thye atually compliment each other and they all inform man with the same truth, no matter how much man and society changes.

This part here, you will have to unwrap for me. I’m not sure what you mean.

A higher biological race which exists in harmony which we ourselves may not even be able to comprehend, cannot logically entertain a God who would design an eternal torture chamber in consequence.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[FurtherSuntime]

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that man changes. This is true.

However, we have to be careful how we say this. Man changes, but truth does not. What changes is how we explain truth. The Church accepts the teachings of the Spiritual Masters as truth. That’s why they’re called Masters. Some have actually been called Teachers (Doctores). Additionally, some are also fathers or mothers of a religious family. These families are grounded in the teachings and experience of their patriarchs and matriarchs.

For example, the Rule of St. Francis is not up for debate. It has been sealed with a Papal Bull. The Franciscan family can change and add anything related to temporal matters, but nothing concerning the life of prayer, the method of prayer and the goal of prayer that is in the rule, the Testament and the admonitions can be changed. Only a pope can change that. No pope has ever touched it in 800 years. The policy has been that if you join this family, this is the form that you will follow. You may not bring anything new into the life of prayer of the Franciscan tradition. You may bring in new forms, but not a new theology of prayer or a theology from another school. You would transplant the Ignatian Exercises into a Franciscan house. However, an individual Franciscan can certainly go through them.

This is also true for the Benedictines, Discalced Carmelites, Carthusians, and the Exercises of St. Ignatius. These teachings are considered to be truth and truth cannot be improved.

Man changes, truth does not. Truth must inform man, not the other way around. As man changes, he must adjust to remain within the parameters of truth.

There is another reality that cannot be dismissed. We cannot handcuff God. God can raise other schools of spirituality. One of the criteria that the Church uses to assess these new schools is by using the already accepted schools as a backdrop, almost like a ruler. When there is nothing in these new school that is contrary to the accepted schools, nor contrary to the scriptures or contrary to the Magisterium, then it is accepted as a gift of the Holy Spirit. That’s how we came to have such a rich diversity of schools of spirituality. None of them contradict each other. Thye atually compliment each other and they all inform man with the same truth, no matter how much man and society changes.

This part here, you will have to unwrap for me. I’m not sure what you mean.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Hi, are you saying the Church knows all there is to know and exploring God is over,
… other than dwelling into self association with the Church’s understandings of God ?

.This would leave the journey shut closed in getting to know the Creator… leaving the mind hand-cuffed with mystery,… is this accurate?

I don’t understand.how truth can ask of this. The eyes are opened and then forced shut , closed and hence collapsing on a self interest obsessed on “self” in association with God. I don’t understand how this would comprise a relationship.

I find this most confusing…

 

[JReducation]

Hi, are you saying the Church knows all there is to know and exploring God is over,
… other than dwelling into self association with the Church’s understandings of God ?

.This would leave the journey shut closed in getting to know the Creator… leaving the mind hand-cuffed with mystery,… is this accurate?

I don’t understand.how truth can ask of this. The eyes are opened and then forced shut , closed and hence collapsing on a self interest obsessed on “self” in association with God. I don’t understand how this would comprise a relationship.

I find this most confusing…

This is not quite what I’m saying. I am saying what the Church actually says about herself.

a. The fullness of truth subsists within the Catholic Church.

b. There is no new revelation to come.

Everything that God wants us to know about him he has revealed to the Church and there is no more coming on this side of death. However, this does not mean that we understand everything that has been revealed. We’re still unwrapping it all.

What has been “unwrapped” is truth and it will not change. It cannot change. But there is a great deal more that has been revealed, so there is room to go deeper. That’s what the contemplative does.

We’re not going to find anything new. Hopefully, what we will get is a better understanding. There are no new revelations or new truths; but as we go along the journey, our experiences and our contemplation help us to understand those truths better.

This is very important. As we understand better, there should be no contradiction with what we have understood to this day. Truth does not contradict truth. If there is a contradiction, then there is an error and it’s not God, but man taking control.

It’s funny. I just had this conversation with my superior today. He commanded me not to think so much. He said something that made me laugh. It was something like, “Francis gave us a map, what’s wrong with it? Or did you want a GPS too?” His point was, “You have to do some work too. You have to study the map, become familiar with it. Own it. Make it your life’s map. Stop trying to bring something new into the equation. There is nothing new. There is simply greater understanding.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Julia_Mae]

It’s funny. I just had this conversation with my superior today. He commanded me not to think so much.

That is funny, I’ve been hearing that most of my 61 years. These days it’s less of a problem since I can’t remember half the time what it was I was thinking too much about…

That’s why we have sticky notes!

Back to contemplation and revelation. One of the issues I think I have and maybe others as lay contemplatives, is just not really knowing the full deposit of faith. (If anyone does.) So, sometimes a thing feels very new and strange and then, if you are lucky ( or led) you might stumble across the right phrase in someone’s writing, we can realize, it’s not as new and odd as you thought.

So I have a question. If there are things we are still learning, then perhaps we can say that there is room for something in theology, as in: it doesn’t contradict what’s known, but it’s not spelled out, either. For instance, is it possible that there can be a soul, as in an individual, created by God who never comes into Time but makes the whole journey to God in some non-temporal state?

See, okay… . So, my understanding is, we are here and we are tested and formed and strengthened and all kinds of stuff so that we are able to live in the Presence of God. Purgatory not only finishes that, but probably protects us from some sort of annihilation that would happen if we encountered God without our wedding garments, if you get what I mean.

So, what I’m asking is: does theology make room for the possibility that there could be people like myself and you, only they don’t come here to do that, but instead do it outside of Time? (I don’t want you to think I am just idly making up weird stuff, I’m trying to interpret something specific.)

 

[JReducation]

That is funny, I’ve been hearing that most of my 61 years. These days it’s less of a problem since I can’t remember half the time what it was I was thinking too much about…

That’s why we have sticky notes!

Back to contemplation and revelation. One of the issues I think I have and maybe others as lay contemplatives, is just not really knowing the full deposit of faith. (If anyone does.) So, sometimes a thing feels very new and strange and then, if you are lucky ( or led) you might stumble across the right phrase in someone’s writing, we can realize, it’s not as new and odd as you thought.

So I have a question. If there are things we are still learning, then perhaps we can say that there is room for something in theology, as in: it doesn’t contradict what’s known, but it’s not spelled out, either. For instance, is it possible that there can be a soul, as in an individual, created by God who never comes into Time but makes the whole journey to God in some non-temporal state?

See, okay… . So, my understanding is, we are here and we are tested and formed and strengthened and all kinds of stuff so that we are able to live in the Presence of God. Purgatory not only finishes that, but probably protects us from some sort of annihilation that would happen if we encountered God without our wedding garments, if you get what I mean.

So, what I’m asking is: does theology make room for the possibility that there could be people like myself and you, only they don’t come here to do that, but instead do it outside of Time? (I don’t want you to think I am just idly making up weird stuff, I’m trying to interpret something specific.)

I would hope you’re not making this up.

I would have to say no, only because revelation tells us three very important things. Actually, it tells us more than three, but there are three that I would apply here.

First, we are told that we are created in God’s image and likeness. Second, we are told that the Second Person of the Trinity becomes flesh.

Right there, the point is made that it is God’s intent that man exist in space and time. God then breaks into human history, by becoming Incarnate. So that the creation of man is really a foreshadowing of the Incarnation. The Incarnation was going to happen, regardless of Adam’s sin. The Passion is a whole other story. But God creates the garden and man in the garden, because it is God’s plan to walk through the garden as it’s Lord and Creator and to share it with his creation. But he created a man who exists in space and time. Therefore, God intended to share space and time with man. Of course, as we know, at the end of our earlthly journey, we then share eternity with God.

I said there were three points that would contraindicate the notion of a human being that has never existed in space and time. That third truth is the Immaculate Conception. To understand the Immaculate Conception, one must understand the Trinity.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The love between the Father and Son is eternal and is truly a divine person. However, this person is an uncreated Immaculate Conceptioin. In other words, he is not a creature. He is God. But he is conceived through all eternity from the immaculate love between the two other persons in the Trinity.

But God plans to share with man the same experience of love, community and conception as exists in himself. Through Adam’s sin, man forfeits this gift. However, God will not be deterred even by man’s sin. It is his plan that man share in the same experience as the God-head, because he creates man in his image and likeness.

Man shares in the Father’s creative power and in the Father’s authority over creation. Man shares in the Son’s human existence. Man shares in the Holy Spirit’s Immaculate Conception, through Mary.

This is very important. The Church teaches that Mary IS the Immaculate Conception. In other words, not only is he conceived without sin, she is the event itself, but in space and time. While the Holy Spirit is the Uncreated Immaculate Conception, Mary is the created Immaculate Conception.

All of God’s mysery and all of God’s nature is revealed in space and time. There is nothing more to reveal about God. The rest is a matter of understanding that which has been revealed in order to love God and achieve union with him.

God’s nature has been revealed to us through his activity in space and time. Therefore, the contemplative does what the scritpure tells us about Mary. “She treasured all these things in he heart.” Mary did this within space and time.

The contemplative holds these truths in his or her heart. The more he prays, the more he understands. The more that he understands, the more he prays. The one feeds the other, knowledge of the Belvoed inspires love. But love drives our desire to know him more intimately. Because this all takes place in space and time and continues in eternity, there is really no rational reason to think that there is a need for a human being who has never experienced space and time.

I hope I answered your question.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Monica4316]

I have been reading on these forums and I have a question. What is the traditional Catholics attitude toward Contemplation and Mysticism? It seems that many modern practices (advocated by various authors to remain unnamed) are immediately dismissed as new age mumbo jumbo and anti-catholic. On the other had I am sure that many traditional Catholics find great comfort in the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila etc. So where is the fine line? Are the historic mystics ok and anyone claiming to have a contemplative method today considered a whack job?
As someone who would like to expand their spiritual practice and seek greater unity with the indwelling trinity I am having a hard time finding practices that aren’t condemned in one way or another. I have settled on the Jesus Prayer as the method that seems best, although i am sure there is probably something wrong with that too.

well no I mean if something comes from Catholic Tradition and has been tested by the Saints and approved by the Church, then we know it’s safe and we can use it… the problem with many “new” contemplative practices is that they aren’t based on Catholicism, but on other religions. That is why Catholics don’t / shouldn’t use them, because these religions have a different goal than Christianity… for example, it might be focused on experience rather than a growth in holiness. There might be a great emphasis on measuring “holiness” by feelings, etc, which is not the Christian way.

God bless

 

[FurtherSuntime]

JReducation

This is not quite what I’m saying. I am saying what the Church actually says about herself.

a. The fullness of truth subsists within the Catholic Church.

. There is no new revelation to come.

Everything that God wants us to know about him he has revealed to the Church and there is no more coming on this side of death. However, this does not mean that we understand everything that has been revealed. We’re still unwrapping it all.

What has been “unwrapped” is truth and it will not change. It cannot change. But there is a great deal more that has been revealed, so there is room to go deeper. That’s what the contemplative does.

We’re not going to find anything new. Hopefully, what we will get is a better understanding. There are no new revelations or new truths; but as we go along the journey, our experiences and our contemplation help us to understand those truths better.

This is very important. As we understand better, there should be no contradiction with what we have understood to this day. Truth does not contradict truth. If there is a contradiction, then there is an error and it’s not God, but man taking control.

It’s funny. I just had this conversation with my superior today. He commanded me not to think so much. He said something that made me laugh. It was something like, “Francis gave us a map, what’s wrong with it? Or did you want a GPS too?” His point was, “You have to do some work too. You have to study the map, become familiar with it. Own it. Make it your life’s map. Stop trying to bring something new into the equation. There is nothing new. There is simply greater understanding.”

FS.

I looked up the word revelation, websters…disclosing of knowledge to man by Divine Revelation…

To say there is no new revelation to come… is to clearly tell God himself what to do !
( can you please address this problem?

My view has been suggesting that it is not a matter of needing or asking for GPS from God, it is a matter of uncovering GPS on the trip or journey.

The map uncovers GPS in contemplation , prayer,wonder & greater understandings ,all bringing something “new into the equation” …Showing contradiction to above entry…

The contemporary mystic is self centered in what he or she thinks is a relationship.and derives
all from a selfish viewpoint of…“need or want for me” . This is clearly evidenced in comment above…“Or do you want GPS as well”.
Unbelievable

Its all about the GPS …If there are no greater understandings, there will be nothing new. If there is nothing new there is no faith. The interior life is full of new equations every day, GPS is alive and well.:

Everyone has different abilities and talents, I enjoy thinking on things , not into sweeping things under the carpet in order to …fit in. I like my eyes open.

There are so many un-answered questions going on here. Most concern answers which try to suggest man has the ability to tell God what to do… Now that is funny ……​

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

To say there is no new revelation to come… is to clearly tell God himself what to do !

When we have an incorrect view of God, His Nature, and His transcendent link to His Creation, we have also an incorrect view of theology and we also say incorrect things about God, ourselves, and theology. We also see incorrectly the postings of possibly the best CAF member there is, Mr “Junior” (as I like to refer to him) Education. We end up reducing the truths of faith to esoteric statements devoid of any relation to what is real. God is real and transcendent and our statements don’t limit Him, only ourselves.

We receive truth, we contemplate truth, and truths, because we must reason from principles to higher truths by way of our intellect. Contemplation and mysticism are results of God giving us the grace to understand these higher truths that we cannot come to understand with our contingent human nature because we have no natural inclination to these. We are able to receive grace that orients us to higher truths by partaking in God’s Divine Nature. Hell and separation from God comes from rejecting this grace and placing some aspect of His Creation in its place. We must decrease while He must increase and the Church’s rules are here to set us on this path and to keep us there. Even the Franciscans can help us… although I prefer Aquinas!

 

[TrueLight]

I just want to post that I received my “Imitation of Christ” and “The Journey of the Mind to Christ” today.

I started reading Imitation of Christ.

What an inspiring book.