Contemplation and Mysticism

[holmj2674]

Someone should submit his cause for Canonization. We need a few Protestant saints.

Having said that…

This isn’t bashing, it’s truth and while I don’t know if it belongs here, I think it’s too important to pass off. Maybe we need a new thread but I find most Catholics are woefully ignorant of the non-Catholic “Christian” world at present, especially in America. But they are spreading.

Protestant doesn’t mean Episcopalian/Methodist/United Church of Christ anymore. Now we have MAD - the Mid-Acts Dispensationalist who has no use or familiarity with the Gospels because Jesus words there are of the old dispensation and only for the Jews. There is only one Gospel: the Gospel of Paul which says: faith saves, good works are a lie from the Catholic Church.

There are more types of course, but what they all have in common is their extreme hatred of Catholicism. Ex-treme. Their pastors - ew - anyway, the guys that run those “churches” spend much time villifying us at every meeting. I actually asked one if he would kill me if he could. He did not answer.

holm is right. To see what happens when you take God out of religion, when the spirituality is absent, that process by which we actually connect in Time to Eternity, just look at the progression of those who break away. As soon as they abandon the Eucharist, …

It’s scary as hell out there, people, and I mean hell. For this thread, all I can say is, if I could wave a wand and make something happen, it would be a call to contemplative prayer in every Parish in America. Those people are lost. All their dead are lost as they never pray for them. And prayer is the most powerful tool available to any human being.

This is my constant a soapbox: if it is the vocation of every person to show forth the image of Christ, and if He came to save the world, then saving the world is our job.

This is an online site where you can pray the Rosary with people from around the world 24/7. Why can’t we use this internet for Contemplative Outreach that would be more than just education? Why can’t there be an actual lay order of some kind? In a year when the Pope got a Twitter account, I say it’s time.

I elect Br JR to get it started.

Since my last post was rather non-charitable I think i will focus for a second on what Protestants get right, and how that can be used as a first step for contemplation. In the Protestant world having a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” is huge. It is the single most important thing anyone can do. I agree with this whole heartedly. As Catholics we must also have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and for us it starts with the sacraments and especially the Eucharist. What more personal do you want than consuming his flesh and drinking his blood right? But that friendship that is so important with Protestants needs to be established as well. A Protestant would never think to ask for intercession from Mary or the Saints because they feel they can go right to the source… Jesus Christ, because they work on establishing a personal dialogue with the Lord and Savior. Many read the Bible prodigiously in an attempt to discern his word and apply it to their life , and although they often do not come to the same conclusion we do it is not from a lack of effort. Catholics have their own Bible reading tradition, we call it Lectio Divina, and it is a powerful source for contemplation.
Protestants also stress the need to be"saved" by praying something like the “sinners prayer,” asking Jesus into their life as their Lord and Savior and forgiving them of their sins and turning their heart toward God and his commandments. This is truly praiseworthy itself as well, but as I told a protestants friend, this is not a one off thing, as a Catholic every morning when we get pout of bed we should say this sinners prayer and rededicate our lives to the Lord for this coming day.
By cultivating a Personal relationship and asking Christ into out lives every day, to forgive our sins and turn us toward the father we can establish fertile ground for contemplation. As Catholics we have other tools as well, many pray the Rosary, others practice Eucharistic Adoration, and as I see many follow the LOTH as well. These are the things that make us Catholic and can add depth as we seek to uncover the divine presence in our own lives.

 

[JReducation]

Since my last post was rather non-charitable I think i will focus for a second on what Protestants get right, and how that can be used as a first step for contemplation. In the Protestant world having a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” is huge. It is the single most important thing anyone can do. I agree with this whole heartedly. As Catholics we must also have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and for us it starts with the sacraments and especially the Eucharist. What more personal do you want than consuming his flesh and drinking his blood right? But that friendship that is so important with Protestants needs to be established as well. A Protestant would never think to ask for intercession from Mary or the Saints because they feel they can go right to the source… Jesus Christ, because they work on establishing a personal dialogue with the Lord and Savior. Many read the Bible prodigiously in an attempt to discern his word and apply it to their life , and although they often do not come to the same conclusion we do it is not from a lack of effort. Catholics have their own Bible reading tradition, we call it Lectio Divina, and it is a powerful source for contemplation.
Protestants also stress the need to be"saved" by praying something like the “sinners prayer,” asking Jesus into their life as their Lord and Savior and forgiving them of their sins and turning their heart toward God and his commandments. This is truly praiseworthy itself as well, but as I told a protestants friend, this is not a one off thing, as a Catholic every morning when we get pout of bed we should say this sinners prayer and rededicate our lives to the Lord for this coming day.
By cultivating a Personal relationship and asking Christ into out lives every day, to forgive our sins and turn us toward the father we can establish fertile ground for contemplation. As Catholics we have other tools as well, many pray the Rosary, others practice Eucharistic Adoration, and as I see many follow the LOTH as well. These are the things that make us Catholic and can add depth as we seek to uncover the divine presence in our own lives.

This is pretty good. Can I add one more thing here? Please?

Let’s go back to the personal relationship with Jesus. I would add that one of the most intimate experiences between two people is the admission of faults and forgiveness; ergo, the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Another thing that some Protestant communities have maintained from their pre-Reformation days and Catholics have have put aside is common prayer. Many Catholics have reduced common prayer to mass. That’s like reducing an egg to the yoke or the sun to its core.

One of the things that kept the saints and many mystics going was common prayer. Even Carthusians, who live in hermitages pray at the same time, say the same prayers as their brothers, and they know that they are united in prayer, even when they cannot see each other.

Protestants are more comfortable praying together than many Catholics. Part of this is because they don’t depend on Father as do Catholics. The other part is that Catholics and Protestants alike have often fallen into the error of privatism. Prayer and religion are “private”. Nonetheless, if I were going to select which group still prays more in community, I’d have to say that fundamentalist Christians do. They have no problem praying over a person, walking into a home and praying with the family or with their own family. It’s still more common among them.

Catholics had a long tradition of the family rosary and grace before meals, which has gone bye bye, but has not been replaced by any other form of family prayer.

The communal dimmension of the contemplative live is stronger among fundementalist Christians than it is among other Christians, Catholic or Protestant. This is where EF lovers have to be careful. The problem is not the EF, it’s us. I have heard many EF lovers delight in the fact that they go to mass and it’s them and Jesus. Whoah! That’s never been Catholic. It’s not a Jesus and me affair. Even with the silence in the EF, it remains OUR prayer and we are one community in the presence of God and we are there for both: God and man. The cross has two bars, vertical and horizontal. We don’t want to go into the vertical and ignore the horizontal. This always takes me back to Francis of Assisi. He banned Gregorian chant from mass and the LOTH because the common man could not participate in Gregorian chant. It waas too difficult. He was very aware of the need for everyone to praise God in one voice. The Church of his time had become very passive. The priest celebrated mass. The monks prayed and the laity watched. We want to be careful not to fall into that again.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[holmj2674]

Protestants are more comfortable praying together than many Catholics. Part of this is because they don’t depend on Father as do Catholics. The other part is that Catholics and Protestants alike have often fallen into the error of privatism. Prayer and religion are “private”. Nonetheless, if I were going to select which group still prays more in community, I’d have to say that fundamentalist Christians do. They have no problem praying over a person, walking into a home and praying with the family or with their own family. It’s still more common among them.

I would argue that it needs to communal and private… both in harmony, one complementing the other. I think in theory the Catholic Church still has the edge in its communal understanding of sin and repentance. For us the Church IS the body of Christ, not just some invisible branch of the body of Christ and this should make a huge difference… But I do agree about Protestants being more comfortable praying for each other… and I believe this ties into the fact that they do not ask Mary or Saints for intercession, they most rely on each other.

 

[JReducation]

I would argue that it needs to communal and private… both in harmony, one complementing the other. I think in theory the Catholic Church still has the edge in its communal understanding of sin and repentance. For us the Church IS the body of Christ, not just some invisible branch of the body of Christ and this should make a huge difference…

The above is a whole other issue. That’s a doctrinal difference between us.

But I do agree about Protestants being more comfortable praying for each other… and I believe this ties into the fact that they do not ask Mary or Saints for intercession, they most rely on each other.

This is what I was trying to say, since we’re on the subject of contemplation and mysticism, which is part of the whole area of pray and life of prayer.

Catholics are not as comfortable with this. I always chuckle, because I always find that Catholics, Jews and Muslims tend to be “Bus Pay-ers”. Everyone is facing the same way and praying toward the front of the bus and we don’t like to look too much at each other when we pray. We have common prayer and we’re OK with that. Intimate prayer makes us squirm.

It keeps getting worse. Yesterday, I was invited to dinner by four very good Catholic men. I would say holy men. We were at a restaurant. The food came and everyone reached for their napkins. I blessed myself and started to say grace. The four gentlemen were a little stunned. They stopped and looked at me. But they all had this look on their faces that reminded me of the kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar. I was not sure if they were uncomfortable, because they forgot grace and the friar “reminded” them or if they were uncomfortable, because everyone was looking.

I have to add to this a very funny thing that happened. We don’t have much by way of clothing. My community follows poverty very strictly. I have two habits, a pair of dress slacks and a clerical shirt, a pair of jeans and four t-shirts, two pairs of shoes. Enough underwear for one week. That’s it. Compared to what I had before, this is almost nothing. We wear habits everywhere.

I was invited by these chaps, to dinner. They are interested in our community. The place was called The Pub. I thought about the name, “The Pub” and wondered what kind of restaurant it was, but I went.

We met outside and walked in. It was delightful place. It was like one of the English pubs that you seen in old movies where there is a bar and then tables where they serve food. The food was really good too. But I digress.

As the young lady was leading us to our table on the patio, a fella’ who was sitting at the bar looks in my direction and goes, “WHAT THE H*LL???”

And another man sitting a few stools away says, “IT’S A MONK!!!”

Finally, a third guy goes, “Why do I suddenly feel guilty?”

Now, THAT’S the way to get people back to prayer. Shock 'em into it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PrayRosary]

Brother JR,

Im just curious, when would you be allowed to wear jeans and tshirts out? I just figured if you went out to eat with your friends, this would be the time. Just curious.

 

[onmyknees]

It’s my pleasure. I enjoy writing. Before I became ill, I taught theology and did a lot retreat work and spiritual direction. This is kind of fun for me, because I spend a lot of time in bed.

Br. Jr. I am so sorry that you are ill. I will pray for you to the Blessed Sacrament in Adoration from now on. You are an excellent teacher and spiritual director.

You must cultivate several things. 1) Continue to pray for grace. 2) Remember that you’re struggling. As long as you’re struggling to overcome an evil or even just a flaw in your life, God loves your effort and he delights in your love. 3) Addictions are tough to break and God knows this. We must not give up. Nor should we drive ourselves crazy either. 4) If we’re addicted to a sinful act, very often we reach a point where we just act on auto-pilot. When that happens subjective culpability may be mitigated or non-existent. To have sin, even venial sin, one must consent. Something that creeps up, because it’s a habit, rarely involved serious or much deliberation. Your confessor or your spiritual director can help you determine the degree of culpability. 5) Even when the degree of culpability is mitigated, we still have a moral duty to work to overcome the sin. We can’t just say that God knows that I’m addicted to heroin, so I can go ahead and use it, knowing that it’s going to kill me or at the very least, do serious neurological damage. I may no longer be culpable for the initial action, but I am still responsible for the future. I have to do the most I can to change it so that it’s more spiritually favorable.

I wrote down all this advice and am going to really try hard to follow it.

Instead of saying God knows that I am addicted to ---------- so it is okay to go ahead and continue doing it, (knowing that it is causing trouble for me), I say to myself, well I it is not that bad and I can go to confession. I know this is so bad!

This is called recollection. When the soul becomes recollected, he can hear the voice of God which speaks in a whisper, like that of a lover seducing his beloved.

Yes, and sometimes I see pictures in my head of Him suffering on the cross and I know what I must do.
I have known His love too and it brings me to tears of joy, and sorrow for the evil I do. I am continually begging Him for mercy!

The beauty of the LOTH is two-fold. 1) Your are praising God with his word. Common’ no one can go wrong with that can he? 2) God speaks to you as you speak to him, because it is his word. The LOTH is all scriptural.

This is beautiful!

St. Francis of Assisi did. He never chanted, never bowed, knelt or did or the things that the monks and priests do. He told his brothers and nuns not to do any of that stuff either. He was not anti monks or anti priests. He loved them both. He understood that the LOTH was meant for the entire Church. The monks and priests could get really fancy and solemn, but the common man does not have the time, knowledge, skill or place to get fancy. His brothers worked in frams, pig pens, with lepers, or were preaching and walking. It’s hardly a fine monastic chapel enviornment.

Yes, I think I am a simple person too. I like that I am reading the same LOTH that many holy people are reading as well. So are you saying that it is fine that I don’t read it like the instructions tell you to? I really have a hard time with the instructions and what week to be reading.

Yet, Francis has been acclaimed by the Church as a) The Mirror of Perfection, b) The Icon of Christ and c) the Perfect Christian. Not bad for a guy who prayed the LOTH in a very simple way and who had his brother-priests celebrate mass with the same austerity, because to him the crux of the mass was the proclamation of the Gospel, the sacrifice of Calvary and the reception of the Holy Eucharist.

If you’re praying as Francis prayed, you’re way ahead of most people.

Well, I am far from praying like a saint. I have a long way to go on my journey.

Both are great pieces of literature. I’m familiar with both.

Yes, I loved reading about their lives, but I admit that there was quite a lot of the philosophy in “Confessions” that was way over my head.

Actually, I do a lot of that and I’m also Formation Director for our Postulants. But I understand what you mean. I have never learned to do spiritual direction via a forum. I’ve done some by letters. I actually learned by reading the letters of Francis de Sales to Jane de Chantal. He’s an awesome man. You’ve got to read Introduction to the Devout Life. It’s awesome for lay people. Read that and your bible and you’re set for life.

I have heard of the Introduction to the Devout Life. Who is the author?

Read above

Have you ever read her work, The Dialog?

No, I have not read her work “The Dialog” Could I find it in a Catholic bookstore?

This site is great. You can find most of the Catholic Masters, some of the Protestant ones too and a few others. Don’t flip out on me when I mention Protestant masters. There are some very good ones. One just has to know which ones. Unless a good Catholic thoelogian tells you which one, don’t read them. But I digress, this site has many classics for free. What I do, because I can’t afford books, I copy sections and save them on my hard disk or on my memory stick. If I need to do so, I print the pages that I want.

I hope this helps at least a little bit to continue your journey.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you soooo much. This has been a great help! God bless you! Sorry that my responses came out in black too. I picked the purple color for my responses but I guess I did it wrong.

 

[JReducation]

Brother JR,

Im just curious, when would you be allowed to wear jeans and tshirts out? I just figured if you went out to eat with your friends, this would be the time. Just curious.

Thank you soooo much. This has been a great help! God bless you! Sorry that my responses came out in black too. I picked the purple color for my responses but I guess I did it wrong.

You’re welcome. Introduction to the Devout Life was written by St. Francis de Sales. You can download it for free at that same site where I linked you to above for Catherine’s Dialogue.

It’s a great site folks.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Brother JR,

Im just curious, when would you be allowed to wear jeans and tshirts out? I just figured if you went out to eat with your friends, this would be the time. Just curious.

We wear jeans to do manual labor, especially outside. Other than that we wear a habit or a pair of slacks and clerical shirt.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Julia_Mae]

I don’t know if any of you have heard of The Virtual Abbey? This is from their site:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-suFSE95O0NY/TlUHuNdYR1I/AAAAAAAAB5E/QHOLuEG9uuU/s320/PICT0715.JPGAS MODERN MONASTICS . . .

We believe spiritual life transcends boundaries of time and place. Our online community prays the Daily Office via Twitter. Want to pray with us but don’t use Twitter? Text: “follow virtual_abbey” to 40404 (USA only).

They are here: thevirtualabbey.com/

What’s nice is, they send the prayers every day at the hours meant for them to be prayed, but you can access the set on your Twitter feed any time.

 

[onmyknees]

You’re welcome. Introduction to the Devout Life was written by St. Francis de Sales. You can download it for free at that same site where I linked you to above for Catherine’s Dialogue.

It’s a great site folks.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I went to the site! I cannot believe that I can read the whole “Dialogue” for FREE and especially on line! Awesome!!! I cannot read a regular book unless I hold it up to eye level (which is very uncomfortable) because I have spondylitis. I have my computer up high so I can stand at it to read. I scrolled down on “The Dialogue” to make sure it was all there. I checked The "Imitation of Christ’ too and sure enough the whole book is there too. I did not see the Introduction of the Devout Life though but I am so happy to have two books to read.

 

[brjimbo]

I would suggest everyone read Fr. Richard Rhor’s “The Naked Now”, Learning to See as the Mystics See. I found it to be a refreshing reorientation to the great Christian mystical tradition.

James Phillips, TSSF

 

[Julia_Mae]

I went to the site! I cannot believe that I can read the whole “Dialogue” for FREE and especially on line! Awesome!!! I cannot read a regular book unless I hold it up to eye level (which is very uncomfortable) because I have spondylitis. I have my computer up high so I can stand at it to read. I scrolled down on “The Dialogue” to make sure it was all there. I checked The "Imitation of Christ’ too and sure enough the whole book is there too. I did not see the Introduction of the Devout Life though but I am so happy to have two books to read.

Christian Classics Ethereal Library, is the site for those new to the tread. You can read St Teresa, Cloud of Unknowing, all of them. You can also read a lot of the Church Fathers and other great stuff at Early Christian Writings. I think both these sites have been online for almost twenty years.

 

[TimothyH]

Since I’ve done a lot of teaching, when I joined CAF I couldn’t think of a really snazzy name, so I chose my initials and education, hence JReducation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I thought your name was like Joseph Reducation or Jerry Reducation or something like that.

-Tim-

 

[onmyknees]

Christian Classics Ethereal Library, is the site for those new to the tread. You can read St Teresa, Cloud of Unknowing, all of them. You can also read a lot of the Church Fathers and other great stuff at Early Christian Writings. I think both these sites have been online for almost twenty years.

I have read St. Theresa of Avila and the Early Church Fathers on line and I want to read Cloud of the unknowing. I just excited that I can read all these books for free on this site.

 

[TrueLight]

I just read an Amazon review of Cloud of Unknowing:

If you are a novice in the contemplative life begin with works by Nouwen and Thomas Merton

Would anyone indeed recommend beginning with these authors?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I have been reading on these forums and I have a question. What is the traditional Catholics attitude toward Contemplation and Mysticism? It seems that many modern practices (advocated by various authors to remain unnamed) are immediately dismissed as new age mumbo jumbo and anti-catholic. On the other had I am sure that many traditional Catholics find great comfort in the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila etc. So where is the fine line? Are the historic mystics ok and anyone claiming to have a contemplative method today considered a whack job?
As someone who would like to expand their spiritual practice and seek greater unity with the indwelling trinity I am having a hard time finding practices that aren’t condemned in one way or another. I have settled on the Jesus Prayer as the method that seems best, although i am sure there is probably something wrong with that too.

catholicproductions.com/store/audio/pitre/spiritual_theol.html

A bit pricey, but this is exactly what you are looking for. It changed my life. Old Testament and New Testament parallels of the 3 stages of the Spiritual Life, writings from the saints and fathers, Catechism, councils, the 7 deadly sins and how to combat them, the characteristics of prayer during each of the three stages, the 3 fold lust, etc. Absolutely amazing collection of spiritual theology.

 

[JReducation]

I would suggest everyone read Fr. Richard Rhor’s “The Naked Now”, Learning to See as the Mystics See. I found it to be a refreshing reorientation to the great Christian mystical tradition.

James Phillips, TSSF

I’ve never read that. This is not the Richard Rhor who is suspended from the Franciscans, is it?

I just read an Amazon review of Cloud of Unknowing:

Would anyone indeed recommend beginning with these authors?

Go with both. They’re great.

Nowen - The Beloved

Merton - The Seven Story Mountain

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[hazcompat]

Imitation of Christ

The Twelfth Chapter
The Royal Road of the Holy Cross

it is the grace of Christ, and not the virtue of man, which can and does bring it about that through fervor of spirit frail flesh learns to love and to gain what it naturally hates and shuns.

To carry the cross, to love the cross, to chastise the body and bring it to subjection, to flee honors, to endure contempt gladly, to despise self and wish to be despised, to suffer any adversity and loss, to desire no prosperous days on earth—this is not man’s way. If you rely upon yourself, you can do none of these things, but if you trust in the Lord, strength will be given you from heaven and the world and the flesh will be made subject to your word. You will not even fear your enemy, the devil, if you are armed with faith and signed with the cross of Christ.

peace and perfect joy

 

[onmyknees]

Imitation of Christ

The Twelfth Chapter
The Royal Road of the Holy Cross

it is the grace of Christ, and not the virtue of man, which can and does bring it about that through fervor of spirit frail flesh learns to love and to gain what it naturally hates and shuns.

To carry the cross, to love the cross, to chastise the body and bring it to subjection, to flee honors, to endure contempt gladly, to despise self and wish to be despised, to suffer any adversity and loss, to desire no prosperous days on earth—this is not man’s way. If you rely upon yourself, you can do none of these things, but if you trust in the Lord, strength will be given you from heaven and the world and the flesh will be made subject to your word. You will not even fear your enemy, the devil, if you are armed with faith and signed with the cross of Christ.

peace and perfect joy

I love this book. Was Thomas Kempis declared a saint?

 

[hazcompat]

I love this book. Was Thomas Kempis declared a saint?

No, but there have been threads on the subject in the past. I’ll remember the author on All Saints Day.

peace