Contemplative prayer group

[robertmidwest]

Is there anyone out there with experience in contemplative prayer or leading a prayer group? I have recently committed to starting a contemplative prayer group and am looking for any feedback possible. I have a tentative approval from my pastor. I have to meet with adult formation coordinator next week to go over details. I have currently have a pastor of another church who will give an introductory session if I get the people together.

I find that contemplative prayer has really help me grow spiritually. I want form a community of others to share share experiences and fellowship with. I was aiming for one day a week. I wasn’t really looking to form or lead anything, but there is nothing close to me, so it just fell on me. It is coming together really fast; as a result I begin to wonder is this the direction God has been leading me?

 

[Seven_Spirits]

Try reading this: catholicspiritualdirection.org/cloudunknowing.pdf

“The Rosary is the most excellent form of prayer and the most efficacious means of attaining eternal life. It is the remedy for all our evils, the root of all our blessings. There is no more excellent way of praying.” - Pope Leo XIII.

 

[Seven_Spirits]

Additionally: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

 

[robertmidwest]

Thanks Seven Spirits.

 

[DBT]

Lectio adapted for a group setting would be a good way to approach what you’re trying to do.

Dave

 

[SaintGobban]

I think contempletive prayer and group prayer are two mutually exclusive things.

Contempletive prayer is solitary and silent and private prayer.

If it’s in a group, it isn’t contempletive.

 

[robertmidwest]

DBT,

I was thinking along the same lnes. Meditation, then scripure reading afterwords.

 

[DBT]

DBT,
I was thinking along the same lnes. Meditation, then scripure reading afterwords.

Here is a link to a short pdf of how our Carmelite Province suggests lectio for group settings (#2 on the list of topics). Hopefully it will help!

www.carmelitesok.org/ocdsok/BestPractices/Spirituality/SpiritualityBP.htm

Dave

 

[fide]

Here is a link to a short pdf of how our Carmelite Province suggests lectio for group settings (#2 on the list of topics). Hopefully it will help!

www.carmelitesok.org/ocdsok/BestPractices/Spirituality/SpiritualityBP.htm

Dave

Hello Dave, if I may offer a criticism to pass on to your Province about their interpretation of meditatio:

MEDITATIO (Meditation) Chew the food; friendliness

1. Read the selected passage aloud again.
2. In silence, let Jesus speak to each person about the meaning of the passage for him or her, or its meaning in today’s world for three or four minutes.
3. Share aloud the insights received.
4. Reflect on the insights in silence for another three
   or four minutes.

Step (2) makes a presumption that is most probably unjustified and thus false, among Catholics today. The presumption is either:
a) the Catholic is well-familiar with Scripture, and the literal and authentic spiritual meanings of the passage, OR
b) Jesus is willing to bypass the lack of right foundational understandings of Scripture, and will give direct interior revelation to the individual right then and there anyway.

First of all there is “a meaning of the passage” intended by God from the beginning. This is the object of exegesis, and has a history in the Catholic Church. Then, there is “a meaning” - a personal significance - for the individual Catholic listening with lectio.

“In the old days”, maybe the monks and friars and consecrated religious who used lectio were so immersed in Scripture that presumption (a) above was a reasonable one. But does anyone think that today, most Catholics are immersed in Scripture? Because unless the participants of such a group are well-grounded in both Scripture and Catholic doctrine, group “sharing” of “insights” is an open invitation to speculations, opinions, errors and confusion. If the leader is knowledgeable, he/she will have his/her hands full trying to minimize the confusion. If the leader is not knowledgeable, … well, things will not go well.

The classic reference (about the year 1150 or so) on lectio divina is called “The Ladder of Four Rungs” by a Carthusian Abbot, Guigo II, and can be found HERE.

I’ve copied a portion below, to show the traditional approach to lectio. I’ve formatted the section for clarity, and put the comments on meditatio in bold for emphasis:

Understand now what the four staves of this ladder are, each in turn.

• Reading, Lesson, is busily looking on Holy Scripture with all one’s will and wit. Meditation is a studious insearching with the mind to know what was before concealed through desiring proper skill. Prayer is a devout desiring of the heart to get what is good and avoid what is evil. Contemplation is the lifting up of the heart to God tasting somewhat of the heavenly sweetness and savour.
• Reading seeks, meditation finds, prayer asks, contemplation feels. Vnde querite et accipietis: pulsate et aperietur vobis. That is to say ‘Seek and you shall find: knock and the door will be opened for you’. That means also, seek through reading, and you will find holy meditation in your thinking; and knock through praying, and the doors shall be opened to you to enter through heavenly contemplation to feel what you desire.
• Reading puts as it were whole food into your mouth; meditation chews it and breaks it down; prayer finds its savour; contemplation is the sweetness that so delights and strengthens.
• Reading is like the bark, the shell; meditation like the pith, the nut; prayer is in the desiring asking; and contemplation is in the delight of the great sweetness.
• Reading is the first ground that that precedes and leads one into meditation; meditation seeks busily, and also with deep thought digs and delves deeply to find that treasure; and because it cannot be attained by itself alone, then he sends us into prayer that is mighty and strong. And so prayer rises to God, and there one finds the treasure one so fervently desires, that is the sweetness and delight of contemplation. And then contemplation comes and yields the harvest of the labour of the other three through a sweet heavenly dew, that the soul drinks in delight and joy.

Please note the active component in meditatio: it is an insearching, a probing, an active search for the meaning. This active engagement of the mind in search of what God is really saying (not a passive waiting on Jesus to reveal something interiorly) is the traditional and historic Catholic understanding of Christian “meditation,” as opposed to the passive approach of Eastern religions which have found their way into many Catholic interpretations of prayer.

I’d be very interested to hear your response.

Blessings.

 

[DBT]

Hello Dave, if I may offer a criticism to pass on to your Province about their interpretation of meditatio:

I’d be very interested to hear your response.

Blessings.

Blessings to you too Fide.

First I’d say I was simply responding in an effort to be helpful to the OP on how to approach a project he felt inspired to take on. He is working with a Pastor so I trust all will be handled in a proper way for his situation. From my experience, encouragement works better than criticism to help the fruits of the Holy Spirit flow forth.

Second, there are many ways to approach lectio … formal or informal, group or individual, structured or more free form, thinking oriented or loving oriented and on and on. I am a Carmelite and much of the teachings of our Saints, St. John of the Cross in particular, has to do with learning when and how to let go of “discursive” approaches for a more simplified, non-conceptual approach to prayer. The goal, ironically, is what you appear to criticize … for the “active” to begin to give way to the “passive.” St. John’s “3-signs” speaks to this directly … in both “The Ascent” and “Dark Night.” And this occurs in the latter phase of the beginner stage so it’s good for those first starting out in prayer to at least be aware the very subtle way the Lord calls to us … to “be” rather than to “do.” Especially when they ask of the contemplative dimension as the OP did.

Ultimately, simplified meditation in this manner becomes habitual … the Practice of the Presence of God as Brother Lawrence teaches. And it is totally devoid of methods or formulas … in fact it is called the “methodless method.” Active recollection in this manner being a principal goal of the interior life in it’s early stages (mansion 3 according to St. Teresa) … perfection in it’s practice being one of several signs of what Carmelites teach as the Spiritual Marriage.

So perhaps I’m just coming from a different perspective than you. Again, I trust the OP can weigh what is best for his particular circumstances.

My best to you,
Dave

 

[DBT]

St. Teresa of Avila is one good example of a soul who could never pray via the step-by-step approach to lectio. Rather, she simply learned to enter into conversation with Christ through reading a few lines of Scripture … talking to Him through what she read. This was her lectio … simplified to the point anyone can do it. Her approach: not to think much but love much. And this simple approach was the entranceway she discovered to infused prayer.

For those interested, I recently gave a formation talk on her simplified way … #3 on the topic list:

www.meditationsfromcarmel.com/content/formation-talks

I will try not to speak further as I don’t want to take the OP’s thread off topic.

Blessings,
Dave

 

[fide]

Blessings to you too Fide.

First I’d say I was simply responding in an effort to be helpful to the OP on how to approach a project he felt inspired to take on. He is working with a Pastor so I trust all will be handled in a proper way for his situation. From my experience, encouragement works better than criticism to help the fruits of the Holy Spirit flow forth.

Second, there are many ways to approach lectio … formal or informal, group or individual, structured or more free form, thinking oriented or loving oriented and on and on. I am a Carmelite and much of the teachings of our Saints, St. John of the Cross in particular, has to do with learning when and how to let go of “discursive” approaches for a more simplified, non-conceptual approach to prayer. The goal, ironically, is what you appear to criticize … for the “active” to begin to give way to the “passive.” St. John’s “3-signs” speaks to this directly … in both “The Ascent” and “Dark Night.” And this occurs in the latter phase of the beginner stage so it’s good for those first starting out in prayer to at least be aware the very subtle way the Lord calls to us … to “be” rather than to “do.” Especially when they ask of the contemplative dimension as the OP did.

Ultimately, simplified meditation in this manner becomes habitual … the Practice of the Presence of God as Brother Lawrence teaches. And it is totally devoid of methods or formulas … in fact it is called the “methodless method.” Active recollection in this manner being a principal goal of the interior life in it’s early stages (mansion 3 according to St. Teresa) … perfection in it’s practice being one of several signs of what Carmelites teach as the Spiritual Marriage.

So perhaps I’m just coming from a different perspective than you. Again, I trust the OP can weigh what is best for his particular circumstances.

My best to you,
Dave

Hello Dave,

My concern is whether we presume too much of the Catholics who come to adult sessions and events seeking to grow in some way in the interior life. Many do not know Scripture or how to “pray” Scripture. Many do not know of prayer beyond formula prayers, and most do not know how to truly pray vocal prayer (with the attention and devotion needed). To presume that many are ready for (infused) contemplation if indeed they are not would not be a helpful thing to do for them.

Speaking of souls on the journey (in Dark Night of the Soul, ch XI #4), John of the Cross says that few endure to the entry into the (contemplative) Illuminative Stage, and far fewer of course into Perfection:

… first, because of the great blessing which is in the quenching of the desire and affection with respect to all things; secondly, because **they are very few that endure and persevere in entering by this strait gate **and by the narrow way which leads to life, as says Our Saviour. The strait gate is this night of sense, and the soul detaches itself from sense and strips itself thereof that it may enter by this gate, and establishes itself in faith, which is a stranger to all sense, so that afterwards it may journey by the narrow way, which is the other night–that of the spirit–and this the soul afterwards enters in order in journey to God in pure faith, which is the means whereby the soul is united to God. By this road, since it is so narrow, dark and terrible (though there is no comparison between this night of sense and that other, in its darkness and trials, as we shall say later), they are far fewer that journey,…

Fr. R. Garrigou-Lagrange writes (The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life) that most souls are properly in none of the three stages, but are “stunted souls”:

‘If they do not recognize their imperfection and desire to become perfect, it is impossible that they should not turn back.’ This is what the Fathers have so often asserted: ‘In the way of God he who makes no progress loses ground.’ Just as the child who does not grow does not merely remain a child but becomes an idiot, so the beginner who does not enter upon the way of proficients when he ought to, does not merely remain a beginner, but becomes a stunted soul. It would seem, unhappily, that the great majority of souls do not belong to any of these three categories, of beginners, proficients or perfect, but rather to that of stunted souls!

I think that the first goal of spiritual formation needs to be to insure that the first things are done well, and brought to completion, before seeking to move too quickly to greater things such as contemplation. For this reason, I stress the need to meditate well. But all this is beyond the scope of this thread, so I’ll stop here.

 

[DBT]

Thank you fide for your very good post … I agree with what you say.

My hope is that we are saying the same thing but in different ways. No one is trying to “hurry things along” and of course it’s important to remain in meditation until God calls the soul further. I’m not sure why you seem to think otherwise.

That having been said, some (many) people simply can’t meditate in a highly formalistic kind of way. But this need not hold them back from higher things. As mentioned St. Teresa was one who was incapable of following discursive formulas. As such her emphasis was more on oratio than meditatio in the theoretical sense … prayer of the heart, the loving conversation between friends etc. In a practical sense, though, the two are as one. So when Carmelites speak of these things the emphasis is usually tilted toward affection … where other spiritual schools might emphasize the thinking side of things.

And one need not be a Scripture scholar before being qualified to pray (I know you’re not saying that, it’s for the benefit of those who might be reading along). The goal of prayer is union with God through love … and there are as many ways God effects that in souls as there are flowers in the field. St. Teresa told many stories of “learned men” who knew Scripture inside and out … but were spiritually dead. In short, they never learned to simply talk to God and seek Him in all they do. For Carmelites, to ponder always in this way is to meditate. And this is something every soul from beginner to advanced is capable of doing. All they need is the desire … what the OP is trying to foster in his parish. My hope is to encourage him along …

Dave

 

[fide]

Thank you fide for your very good post … I agree with what you say.

My hope is that we are saying the same thing but in different ways. No one is trying to “hurry things along” and of course it’s important to remain in meditation until God calls the soul further. I’m not sure why you seem to think otherwise.
…
Dave

Hello again Dave,

I will try to explain my concern. I see many trying to “hurry things along”.

My concern is founded upon a certain impatience that I observe throughout our culture. Children are being pushed into “preteens”, and into behaviors, clothing styles and language beyond themselves (even if they themselves are pushing for it as well). “Preteens” are pushed into adolescence; adolescents into young adults; and young adults to a sense of now “I’m a grown-up.” All this premature rush to be more than is appropriate (and faster) does not, of course, result in a truly mature population - exactly the opposite is actually the case. One doesn’t make true maturity come any faster with all this impatience, but only frantic caricatures of people acting “as if.”

The impatience, the refusal to wait upon natural and rational development of things, is seen in many ways: our fast-food restaurants, our massive credit-card debt, our constant living beyond our rational means as a society. We are a culture that over-estimates ourselves and presumes more of ourselves than we should.

This cultural impatience, which yields the actually contrary fruit of wide-spread immaturity, of course has come into the Church and manifests itself in many ways.

There is a “natural” process of growth, so to speak, in the supernatural life. The mystical life by grace builds upon the ascetical preparations for it, but impatience wants to hurry up and get to the fruit of “contemplation” before the seed has barely hit the ground. Thus we now have workshops on “contemplative prayer”, as if contemplative prayer is something that someone can teach us to “do.” Contemplative prayer is a gift that can be prepared for, not simply “decided upon.” (Yes, I realize that the word “contemplation” is used in two different senses - acquired contemplation and infused contemplation - and this is part of the problem too.)

I like this brief comment in a “wiki” article on contemplation that I found:

Infused contemplation, described as a “divinely originated, general, non-conceptual, loving awareness of God”, is, according to Thomas Dubay, the normal, ordinary development of discursive prayer, which it gradually replaces. (Thomas Dubay, Fire Within (Ignatius Press 1989 ISBN 0-89870-263-1), chapter 5)

He writes:
It is a wordless awareness and love that we of ourselves cannot initiate or prolong. The beginnings of this contemplation are brief and frequently interrupted by distractions. The reality is so unimposing that one who lacks instruction can fail to appreciate what exactly is taking place. Initial infused prayer is so ordinary and unspectacular in the early stages that many fail to recognize it for what it is. Yet with generous people, that is, with those who try to live the whole Gospel wholeheartedly and who engage in an earnest prayer life, it is common.
It is this truth of “ordinary development” that impatience and presumption interfere with, harm and may even defeat - and this potential for harm under the guise of help is the root of my concern.

 

[DBT]

Oh Fide … you’re stlll giving “the speech!”

I’ve been around these forums many years and heard it more times than I can count. Given it a few times myself I suspect that deep down you and I are kindred spirits but we do place different emphasis on things.

Let me share a few things I’ve learned about myself over the years as a giver of “the speech.”

First, we should always be careful throwing words like “presumption” around for no one is doing that but you my friend If a poster asks about contemplation, we shouldn’t assume they’re trying to trick God or seek shortcuts. If another posts from a perspective different than our own, we shouldn’t ask that the superiors of their order be corrected. And information on the ordinary infused graces (recollection, quiet and union) need not be kept under lock and key … even from beginners. Sharing what may be in-store for us is the very reason the mystical Doctors wrote. If we don’t follow a roadmap, we’re not likely to find the destination.

Yes cautions, concerns and criticisms … I know them well! In fact I’m a formation director elected by a large body precisely to teach such things. But it’s all about balance. With the wrong emphasis, negativity is simply the language of fear … and sometimes envy. It’s the tool of the Pharisee. And taken to the extreme it’s the blunt weapon of the self appointed heretic hunters who prowl these forums looking for victims to devour.

Further, it isn’t enough to know mystical teachings in the mind … they must be written into the heart for deeper meanings to be known. And this only comes through experience … the one thing lacking in most naysayers. Why? Because if our only contribution is to say “no” and place obstacles in people’s paths then we can rest assured we aren’t doing God’s will but actively trying to stiffle the Holy Spirit … who’s intention and working in the souls we are trying to correct we can not possibly know.

St. Teresa speaks of this at length as the imprudent zeal of well meaning souls who set themselves up as protectors, rule makers and gatekeepers of others. It frustrated her to no end for it is a true sign of spiritual immaturity … when they themselves think they’re sitting on the peak of the mountain. There is no cure for such individuals but the purifying hand of our Lord in contemplation itself.

Anyone who has tasted the Lord in contemplation has the desire for everyone to know these glories! Never would they horde it for themselves, keep it under wraps or place obstacles in the way of others. So we encourage others and lead by our example … knowing full well it is God who leads souls in these intimate matters and not us.

Lastly, we can not wait until we are perfect before we begin a life of prayer. If we do, we fail to realize that it is prayer itself that makes us perfect! So let all yearning souls begin now and wait no more! This is the message of the mystical Doctors.

I say this fide not about you … but in condemnation of myself. For I’ve been all these things I mention at one point or another in my efforts to give “the speech.” But God in His infinite mercy has healed me of these imperfections and given me the grace to witness first hand more souls than I can begin to count raised up to the very things I preach. May His name be ever praised!

Dave

 

[Agnikan]

Fr. Richard Rohr has some interesting statements on c.p.:
Bill Wilson, one of the founders of the 12 Step Program of Alcoholics Anonymous, said that recovery was not complete until addicts achieved “emotional sobriety.” In many ways he was saying the same thing that mystical religion recognized – authentic spirituality should lead to a total “rewiring” of both our conscious lives and our unconscious programming. It will not just change external behavior, but internal emotions and responses, our entire pattern of thinking.

Contemplation is not first of all about being religious, introverted, or pious – it is about being emotionally and mentally honest! Contemplation is an alternative consciousness that refuses to identify with or feed what are only passing shows. It is the absolute opposite of addiction, consumerism or any egoic consciousness.

 

[robertmidwest]

Thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. My interest in starting a contemplative prayer group is no way trying fast track someones spirituality. I know that contemplative prayer works for me. My motivation for starting a group in the parish was to fellowship with other Catholics and share our experiences. A group meeting once a week would also provide some accountablility There are a few other parishes with groups in the city, but the drive make it to difficult. I have three children. My tme and money is limited. If I can start a group in this area maybe other can benefit as well as me.

I read somewhere else another criticism similar to fide’s. That the gifts of comtemplative prayer are only for mature Christians. Sounds elitist to me. This group would meet on Parish property so it will not happen without the blessing of our pastor. I spoke with my spiritual advisor about this last Monday. He was very supportive. Tuesday moring I am to meet with our adult faith formation director to give some details.

I have a someone with experience teaching contemplative prayer who could help me get the group going.

DBT, my wife is from Arnold and went to Fox High. I am from the other side of the state. I dragged her here in 1994. Go Cardinals!

Thanks everyone.

 

[fide]

Oh Fide … you’re stlll giving “the speech!”

I’ve been around these forums many years and heard it more times than I can count. Given it a few times myself I suspect that deep down you and I are kindred spirits but we do place different emphasis on things.

Let me share a few things I’ve learned about myself over the years as a giver of “the speech.”

First, we should always be careful throwing words like “presumption” around for no one is doing that but you my friend If a poster asks about contemplation, we shouldn’t assume they’re trying to trick God or seek shortcuts. If another posts from a perspective different than our own, we shouldn’t ask that the superiors of their order be corrected. And information on the ordinary infused graces (recollection, quiet and union) need not be kept under lock and key … even from beginners. Sharing what may be in-store for us is the very reason the mystical Doctors wrote. If we don’t follow a roadmap, we’re not likely to find the destination.

Yes cautions, concerns and criticisms … I know them well! In fact I’m a formation director elected by a large body precisely to teach such things. But it’s all about balance. With the wrong emphasis, negativity is simply the language of fear … and sometimes envy. It’s the tool of the Pharisee. And taken to the extreme it’s the blunt weapon of the self appointed heretic hunters who prowl these forums looking for victims to devour.

Further, it isn’t enough to know mystical teachings in the mind … they must be written into the heart for deeper meanings to be known. And this only comes through experience … the one thing lacking in most naysayers. Why? Because if our only contribution is to say “no” and place obstacles in people’s paths then we can rest assured we aren’t doing God’s will but actively trying to stiffle the Holy Spirit … who’s intention and working in the souls we are trying to correct we can not possibly know.

St. Teresa speaks of this at length as the imprudent zeal of well meaning souls who set themselves up as protectors, rule makers and gatekeepers of others. It frustrated her to no end for it is a true sign of spiritual immaturity … when they themselves think they’re sitting on the peak of the mountain. There is no cure for such individuals but the purifying hand of our Lord in contemplation itself.

Anyone who has tasted the Lord in contemplation has the desire for everyone to know these glories! Never would they horde it for themselves, keep it under wraps or place obstacles in the way of others. So we encourage others and lead by our example … knowing full well it is God who leads souls in these intimate matters and not us.

Lastly, we can not wait until we are perfect before we begin a life of prayer. If we do, we fail to realize that it is prayer itself that makes us perfect! So let all yearning souls begin now and wait no more! This is the message of the mystical Doctors.

I say this fide not about you … but in condemnation of myself. For I’ve been all these things I mention at one point or another in my efforts to give “the speech.” But God in His infinite mercy has healed me of these imperfections and given me the grace to witness first hand more souls than I can begin to count raised up to the very things I preach. May His name be ever praised!

Dave

Well Dave, I’m left speechless.