Contemplative Prayer Question

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Descriptions like these can be helpful … to a point. The reality of prayer, however, is not always so clean cut. For example, in recollection one may certainly pray in an “affective” manner (aka prayer of the heart) or practice the “simple gaze” of the Cure of Ars (aka prayer of simplicity) that the CCC wonderfully describes as a type of contemplation where “I look at Him and He looks at me.”
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DBT: Totally agree, I just listed the various kinds of prayer, and I should have mentioned that it’s not as though one ‘levels up’ from prayer-to-prayer, but there is a fluid oscillation between the different types - however not necessarily at the same time: i.e. during ecstatic union, generally there is the absence of all other forms of prayer. Whereas during the prayer of quiet, one may slip in and out into recollection* (or ‘the prayer of simplicity’ i.e. acquired contemplation’ or ‘acquired recollection’), or else even during the prayer of quiet short vocal prayers might be said -ejaculations.

*Recollection is sometimes used in a broader sense.
 
John_Columba said:
DBT: Totally agree, I just listed the various kinds of prayer, and I should have mentioned that it’s not as though one ‘levels up’ from prayer-to-prayer, but there is a fluid oscillation between the different types - however not necessarily at the same time: i.e. during ecstatic union, generally there is the absence of all other forms of prayer. Whereas during the prayer of quiet, one may slip in and out into recollection* (or ‘the prayer of simplicity’ i.e. acquired contemplation’ or ‘acquired recollection’), or else even during the prayer of quiet short vocal prayers might be said -ejaculations.

*Recollection is sometimes used in a broader sense.
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Hi John -
Yes, I could tell by what you wrote that you knew what I was talking about. In hindsight, my post comes across like I was addressing it to you. Actually I wasn’t … I was speaking generally to readers who might be following along and not familiar with all these terms and concepts. As you and Bookcat note, different writers use these terms in different ways … which oftentimes muddles more than clarifies discussions like this. Context, context, context. Without that we’re left with the great lament of the mystics: language falters.

So then we can try to speak from experience … but that too is fraught with peril. To that end, I will simply note how all of this can be so very subtle. At the end of the day, the prayer of heart can become so stream-lined as to be indistinguishable from the prayer of simplicity. Likewise, those who practice recollection (in any of it’s forms) often fail to recognize the onset of infused prayer … at least in the beginning. The very subtlety of the prayer of quiet is one of the principal trials of St. John’s passive night of sense: initiates tend to trample it underfoot. So yes there’s a “flow” to all this … and the degree of differentiation between all these contemplative states (acquired through infused) can be exceedingly difficult to pick up on. We may think we’re sitting in an airplane still parked on the tarmac … when in fact we’re 30,000 feet up. Or we might not even know were in the airplane at all.

Blessings,
Dave 🙂
 
Hi Dave,

It seems I feel into the common trap of not reading your previous reply properly! On a side note I initially didn’t mention the ‘fluidity’ and ambiguity of the different forms of prayer, and their experience, so I’m glad you brought that nuance of clarification to the subject.

Indeed you implicitly raise an important point which reading your reply brought to mind - that we often cannot know for sure what type of prayer we’re experiencing, and in accord with John of the Cross, who emphasises a pure faith which does not desire or focus on peripheral things, we shouldn’t worry about anaylising what type of prayer we’re in but instead just love and go where the Spirit blows. Awareness of the types of prayer helps, just like a map, but in the end we’ve got to feel our way and fumble our way toward union with God - walking in faith in God, and not by placing our faith in ‘a system’ of prayer (no matter how true).

Peace and blessings 🙂
 
The bottom line here is, you have to pray. Prayer trumps reading about the levels of prayer and the intellectual analysis.

Christ is the source of contemplation and in Him is were we need to be.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The bottom line here is, you have to pray. Prayer trumps reading about the levels of prayer and the intellectual analysis.

Christ is the source of contemplation and in Him is were we need to be.

Jim
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👍👍👍
 
The various authors and *various theological schools *use terms such as “contemplation” or “contemplative prayer” differently.. …such needs to be kept in mind when one goes back and forth between them.

One can say that in relation to the Catechism that the CCC draws from these varied fruits and uses of the term within the Church for that section.

As well as there are various approaches and schools of thought regarding stages of prayer etc over the centuries within the Church. God too is free to work in varied ways with souls.
 
I think Fire Within by the late Fr. Dubay (Ignatius Press) is a good primer and I would highly recommend it to all. He makes extensive reference to SS Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, who are both Doctors of the Church precisely because of their writings on prayer.

Fr. Dubay makes these Doctors accessible to the layman who is interested in the subject.
 
One thing is apparent: When we find a teacher or a way of prayer with which we discern a connection, we certainly can become attached to that one way, often to the exclusion of any other way.

I really appreciate the information, suggestions, and diversity of opinions (and especially the civility) in this thread.
 
drforjc said:
I think Fire Within by the late Fr. Dubay (Ignatius Press) is a good primer and I would highly recommend it to all. He makes extensive reference to SS Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, who are both Doctors of the Church precisely because of their writings on prayer.

Fr. Dubay makes these Doctors accessible to the layman who is interested in the subject.
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The Fire Within is a very good book to help us understand St Teresa and St John of the Cross, but isn’t for a person who wants to learn how to begin the practice of Contemplative Prayer.

I would recommend, “Into the Silent Land,” by Fr Martin Laird

or works by Fr Thomas Keating, such as “Open Mind Open Heart.”

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The Fire Within is a very good book to help us understand St Teresa and St John of the Cross, but isn’t for a person who wants to learn how to begin the practice of Contemplative Prayer.

I would recommend, “Into the Silent Land,” by Fr Martin Laird

or works by Fr Thomas Keating, such as “Open Mind Open Heart.”

Jim
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I stand behind my recommendation.
 
drforjc said:
I stand behind my recommendation.
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Keeping in mind that the work is a good but rather intense book and for many it will be too much. Also it is from the Carmelite approach which is not the only approach.

Myself I do* not *recommend the other book that was mentioned by the OP above (Open Mind…and his other works).
 
Fr Keating’s works are excellent.

Bookcat has a bias against Fr Keating, so take his words with a grain of salt.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Bookcat has a bias against Fr Keating, so take his words with a grain of salt.

Jim
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You recommended them does that mean that you have a *bias *for them and your words should be taken with a grain of salt?

I simply do not recommend them.

We may not discuss this topic - readers may contact Catholic Answers Apologists.
 
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