Contemporary=BAD?

[kristie_m]

It’s probably best that I just stop coming to CAF, it’s just too frustrating for me.

Here’s the thing. I am a choir director at my parish. I make my selections of music based on the readings and following the guidelines of the music planner (OCP). The music that we play is based on the appropriate readings for that Sunday…there is no “My life sucked til I found Jesus” stuff during the liturgy. On a good day, we’ll have a piano, guitar, bass, drum, and flute plus the vocalists. None of us collects a paycheck from the parish…we are volunteers and we do our best to use our gifts to glorify God. We have no organ music because no one has stepped up to play the organ.

My question is this…why do so many people think that because music is contemporary and uses different instruments, that it is somehow less sacred than more traditional music? I’ve even heard it referred to as irreverent…and I completely fail to see how music that is BASED ON SCRIPTURE can be irreverent. Jesus is no less present on the altar, whether we worship Him with Gregorian chant or clashing symbols (Psalm 150).

Is there some actual church documents that say that we cannot use these instruments? Or is this all just a matter of personal preference?

 

[choy]

kristie, just understand that some people on this forum has taken their traditional stance to the extreme right, and are resistant to the changes of modern era. for them, any change would equal irreverence, concentrating only on the outside appearance without taking into account that reverence comes from the heart

as long as your parish and archdiocese says you can use those instruments, then they are not forbidden

 

[zab]

It is OK that the music is contemporary but there are certain guidelines that should be followed. We follow guidelines for what is appropriate in civil matters, we should have no less respect for the guidelines for what is appropriate in Liturgical matters. It is quite common today to see men wearing hats in the building. It seems to have become an exceptable practice and not considered rude among many. I had jury duty this week. The guidelines for what is appropriate are quite liberal. Comfortable clothing was suggested. Suits,ties and dresses were not necessary. Yet there are still strict guidelines about no gum chewing and no hats.
I

 

[Joe_5859]

It’s probably best that I just stop coming to CAF, it’s just too frustrating for me.

No need to swear off CAF entirely. Just try to avoid the “Liturgy & Sacraments” and “Traditional Catholicism” forums and you should be fine.

Thank you for volunteering your time and talents. It’s easy to criticize, but hard to do something about it. Personally, there are very few English hymns that I find genuinely moving (I think we have a ways to go to catch up to the Germans and the French). But as I have not taken it upon myself to compose new and better ones, I can’t really complain too much!

 

[Newbie2]

I agree with the above posts. Some of the traditionalists will quote chapter and verse of such-and-such document as to why anything but the Gregorian Chant is acceptable and/or preferable in mass.

Don’t let it bother you; there’s Catholics that lean right and left and that are on the extreme right and left here at the CAF.

 

[lizaanne]

Contemporary is one thing - but it all depends on how you define that.

For example - a parish I used to attend (a National Shrine no less) uses contemporary music at Mass. One Sunday I had returned to my pew after receiving Holy Communion and just couldn’t put my finger on what that song was - it was only the piano, no lyrics. Hmmmm… Well, after I got home and let it roll around in my head awhile I realized it was a Beatles tune - Long and Winding Road. Lovely tune, but not for Mass!

This same parish will take perfectly good scriptural contemporary hymns and re-word them so they are gender neutral - even in the references to God and the Holy Spirit. And even deliberately choosing gender neutral versions of Psalms.

Look - I like contemporary Christian music (some of it) - but you have to understand that there are a LOT of us here who have had to endure all sorts of crazy stuff from the examples above, all the way to liturgical dancers with smoking incense pots (my own experience)! So this is not a case of as choy so eloquently stated above “…some people on this forum has taken their traditional stance to the extreme right, and are resistant to the changes of modern era. for them, any change would equal irreverence, concentrating only on the outside appearance without taking into account that reverence comes from the heart…” It is a case of just wanting to know that when we go to Mass we are not going to be forced to listen to musical entertainment pieces that have no business whatsoever being there, or that disrespect the Sacrifice.

So - if you are choosing solid reverent and scripturally accurate music, and the parish likes it - then go for it.

~Liza

 

[Joe_5859]

Contemporary is one thing - but it all depends on how you define that.

For example - a parish I used to attend (a National Shrine no less) uses contemporary music at Mass. One Sunday I had returned to my pew after receiving Holy Communion and just couldn’t put my finger on what that song was - it was only the piano, no lyrics. Hmmmm… Well, after I got home and let it roll around in my head awhile I realized it was a Beatles tune - Long and Winding Road. Lovely tune, but not for Mass!

This same parish will take perfectly good scriptural contemporary hymns and re-word them so they are gender neutral - even in the references to God and the Holy Spirit. And even deliberately choosing gender neutral versions of Psalms.

Look - I like contemporary Christian music (some of it) - but you have to understand that there are a LOT of us here who have had to endure all sorts of crazy stuff from the examples above, all the way to liturgical dancers with smoking incense pots (my own experience)! So this is not a case of as choy so eloquently stated above “…some people on this forum has taken their traditional stance to the extreme right, and are resistant to the changes of modern era. for them, any change would equal irreverence, concentrating only on the outside appearance without taking into account that reverence comes from the heart…” It is a case of just wanting to know that when we go to Mass we are not going to be forced to listen to musical entertainment pieces that have no business whatsoever being there, or that disrespect the Sacrifice.

So - if you are choosing solid reverent and scripturally accurate music, and the parish likes it - then go for it.

~Liza

Great observation.

I think that sometimes someone will post about contemporary music and some people have visions of clowns dancing to Simon & Garfunkle while others merely mean something that’s not sung in Latin.

The Church has a rich heritage of liturgical music. The Vatican II document on the liturgy even makes the bold claim that the Church’s musical patrimony is greater than that of any other art (greater than all the paintings, sculptures, architecture, poems, literature, etc.). However, that doesn’t mean we can’t add to it. We just have to strive to create music that is good.

 

[Stephentlig]

I dont have any problem with contemporary music being played in the Church. we all have our ways of praising God, but when we can finally praise God in every way possible thats when we can truly be happy. for me many who dislike it are just mainly people who follow formalities rather than their hearts. :harp:

 

[Khrystyne]

I was in the choir for a couple of years…in the back NOT at the altar AND not to the side of the altar. It’s not about the music, the singing etc… The Catholic Church is not a protestant church. period. If you want to be modern go down the street to a protestant church. period. No arguments, just don’t bring in your issues and set it on our altar and expect us to accept it as a norm. Because I’m going to complain until you can’t stand it, and I’m going to judge rightly, I am going to be such a pain by doing what IS Catholic that you will no longer enjoy being the comfortable wretch trying to bring in your complacency before our Tabernacle, IF there is one still in the Sanctuary, I wonder how that happened??? God not in His sanctuary? Hmmmm… I came into the Catholic church wanting to be Catholic in its entirety, I don’t want to be a protestant or be forced to embrace any of the protestant faith culture.period. Christ’s will for me is to be Catholic, He wants HIS church to be Catholic, if you have a problem with Orthodoxy (the right way of worship) then leave. Mediocrity is not the mainstay anymore and things are changing for the good thanks to the Holy Spirit and the next fully pro-life orthodox generation, thank you God!!!

The thing is that all these little things all add up to A LOT and now this is the state of the Church, and look at the world.

God Bless.

 

[Donkey_Gong]

Yes. Contemporary=BAD???. Both Falun and Gong banned it from our meetings.

 

[benedictgal]

It’s probably best that I just stop coming to CAF, it’s just too frustrating for me.

Here’s the thing. I am a choir director at my parish. I make my selections of music based on the readings and following the guidelines of the music planner (OCP). The music that we play is based on the appropriate readings for that Sunday…there is no “My life sucked til I found Jesus” stuff during the liturgy. On a good day, we’ll have a piano, guitar, bass, drum, and flute plus the vocalists. None of us collects a paycheck from the parish…we are volunteers and we do our best to use our gifts to glorify God. We have no organ music because no one has stepped up to play the organ.

My question is this…why do so many people think that because music is contemporary and uses different instruments, that it is somehow less sacred than more traditional music? I’ve even heard it referred to as irreverent…and I completely fail to see how music that is BASED ON SCRIPTURE can be irreverent. Jesus is no less present on the altar, whether we worship Him with Gregorian chant or clashing symbols (Psalm 150).

Is there some actual church documents that say that we cannot use these instruments? Or is this all just a matter of personal preference?

I would not use the OCP guide as a means of selecting music for the Mass because it’s a mere marketing ploy to promote their tawdry stuff.

Regarding the issue of musical instruments, Musicam Sacram provides this:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

This is something, sadly, that OCP (and, to a certain extent, GIA) routinely ignores.

The Church has her standards for music. Please note what Pope John Paul II wrote back in 2003 in his Chirograph on Sacred Music:

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

1. Another principle, affirmed by St Pius X in the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini and which is closely connected with the previous one, is that of sound form. There can be no music composed for the celebration of sacred rites which is not first of all “true art” or which does not have that efficacy “which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her Liturgy the art of musical sounds”[15].

OCP is not an ecclesial authority within the Church. It does not have any regulatory power nor should it dictate to parishes what should be used. In fact, as I have experieced the publishing house, I have found that it does not have a solid reputation as being completely faithful to the texts of the Mass (Mass of Hope, Mass of Glory) and often paraphrases the words, a big no-no.

Just because the texts are based in Scripture, that does not necessarily mean that the settings are appropriate.

 

[EasterJoy]

It’s probably best that I just stop coming to CAF, it’s just too frustrating for me.

Here’s the thing. I am a choir director at my parish. I make my selections of music based on the readings and following the guidelines of the music planner (OCP). The music that we play is based on the appropriate readings for that Sunday…there is no “My life sucked til I found Jesus” stuff during the liturgy. On a good day, we’ll have a piano, guitar, bass, drum, and flute plus the vocalists. None of us collects a paycheck from the parish…we are volunteers and we do our best to use our gifts to glorify God. We have no organ music because no one has stepped up to play the organ.

My question is this…why do so many people think that because music is contemporary and uses different instruments, that it is somehow less sacred than more traditional music? I’ve even heard it referred to as irreverent…and I completely fail to see how music that is BASED ON SCRIPTURE can be irreverent. Jesus is no less present on the altar, whether we worship Him with Gregorian chant or clashing symbols (Psalm 150).

Is there some actual church documents that say that we cannot use these instruments? Or is this all just a matter of personal preference?

First off, the very sensible question of how music based on Scripture can be irreverent.

I can think of two ways:

a) The music chosen is at odds with the content or the setting. Sung one way, the words are edifying, but sung another, they make a farce of Holy Scriptures. If you were, for instance, to sing a Psalm, but to a tune that sounded as if it were out of a Monte Python skit, to use an extreme example, that would obviously not be reverent. If the melody brings to mind some very secular songs or songs that unfortunately have been put to commercial or another decidedly non-sacred use, that would not be reverent. And so on. I’m not saying, for example, that the minute a melody has been famously sent up by Bugs Bunny or Monte Python or to sell luxury automobiles that it is thereafter automatically ruined for sacred use, but it is unfortunately possible that a particular melody may have to be side-lined for awhile.

b) The content is chosen or adapted in a way that gives a theologically incorrect message or a message that is inappropriate for a particular part of the liturgy. How is that possible? Well, it is hard to think of a Protestant denomination that doesn’t exist because of an incorrect interpretation of the Bible, so obviously it is possible to use the Bible to reach a wrong conclusion. If a song cherry-picks Bible verses in a way that teaches the faith incorrectly or that implies a message that is at odds with the liturgy, that would be incorrect. If the translation is faulty, that would be incorrect. If it doesn’t teach the truth, it isn’t appropriate for Mass.

I think (a) happens a lot more often than (b).

As to Church documents, the use of non-liturgical songs and unintelligible and/or secular styles of singing at Mass were problems even back in the 1400s. In other words, there have been alot of Church documents.

If you want to learn more about what the Church documents have to say, you might consult with the Church Music Association of America, which is a Catholic group. They may or may not be more conservative in their musical thinking than you are, but I think that’s where you’ll find the facts you’re looking for, particularly the Church documents:musicasacra.com/literature/. If you go there, you’ll get a far more complete picture of what boundaries the Church has actually set. They have a forum, too, I believe. I don’t know if you’ll find the opinions less frustrating than here, but I think you’ll find them informed at something more like the level at which you’re capable of having a discussion, considering your background.

Good luck, and by the way, thank you for your service to the Church!

 

[dnu]

Just another example of how, in America, the Latin Rite is literally drowning in Liberalism. Sad.

I don’t recall any stories of Jesus using electrical instruments on the Sabbath day. If *a cappella *was good enough for him on the Sabbath, it should be good enough for every single Christian on earth. Contrary to what the liberals/progressives try to shove down our throats, the Christian religion and it’s practices should not change, nor does it need to, ever.

 

[EasterJoy]

I would not use the OCP guide as a means of selecting music for the Mass because it’s a mere marketing ploy to promote their tawdry stuff.

Regarding the issue of musical instruments, Musicam Sacram provides this:

…

This is something, sadly, that OCP (and, to a certain extent, GIA) routinely ignores.

The Church has her standards for music. Please note what Pope John Paul II wrote back in 2003 in his Chirograph on Sacred Music:

…

OCP is not an ecclesial authority within the Church. It does not have any regulatory power nor should it dictate to parishes what should be used. In fact, as I have experieced the publishing house, I have found that it does not have a solid reputation as being completely faithful to the texts of the Mass (Mass of Hope, Mass of Glory) and often paraphrases the words, a big no-no.

Just because the texts are based in Scripture, that does not necessarily mean that the settings are appropriate.

I’m less critical of OCP than you are, we both know that by now, but it is entirely fair to say that OCP’s published content is chosen primarily based on what their customers actually do want, and not what someone in the Magesterium has decided that their customers should want.

OCP will get more conservative when Catholic parishes in America get more conservative, and not the other way around. I think that is a realistic assessment.

 

[choy]

Just another example of how, in America, the Latin Rite is literally drowning in Liberalism. Sad.

I don’t recall any stories of Jesus using electrical instruments on the Sabbath day. If *a cappella *was good enough for him on the Sabbath, it should be good enough for every single Christian on earth. Contrary to what the liberals/progressives try to shove down our throats, the Christian religion and it’s practices should not change, nor does it need to, ever.

LOL
seriously?

 

[ProVobis]

None of us collects a paycheck from the parish…we are volunteers and we do our best to use our gifts to glorify God. We have no organ music because no one has stepped up to play the organ.

Congratulations for stepping up and giving your talents to God. As far as the organ goes, here’s what Vatican II said:

“The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up men’s minds to God and higher things.”

Yet many if not most of the organists play for the Protestant churches. Go figure.

 

[EasterJoy]

Just another example of how, in America, the Latin Rite is literally drowning in Liberalism. Sad.

I don’t recall any stories of Jesus using electrical instruments on the Sabbath day. If *a cappella *was good enough for him on the Sabbath, it should be good enough for every single Christian on earth. Contrary to what the liberals/progressives try to shove down our throats, the Christian religion and it’s practices should not change, nor does it need to, ever.

“Ever” is a very, very long time, far longer than the Church has seen a need to enforce. Your argument about what was used in the synagogues of Jesus’ time is also an argument against organs and polyphony, not to mention modern musical scales and harmonies. “Every single Christian on earth” is a lot of people, as well.

I’m not arguing in favor of innovation for innovation’s sake, but Church doesn’t teach that musical practices should never change. It doesn’t teach that the music of every Catholic church on the planet, let alone every Christian, ought to sound the same as every other. That is clearly over the top. If you think of all the music we wouldn’t have, if the Church really used that yardstick…Yes, it would be Sad. Very sad indeed.

(By the way, what is your evidence that there were no musical instruments used in worship of Jesus’ time? Do you really know that, or did you just make that up?)

 

[EasterJoy]

Congratulations for stepping up and giving your talents to God. As far as the organ goes, here’s what Vatican II said:

Yet many if not most of the organists play for the Protestant churches. Go figure.

It doesn’t take figuring, because there is an obvious solution. It is called fair compensation, aka “a salary”. Oh, and money to buy a quality instrument, too, don’t forget that. Quality organists do not want the Purgatory on Earth of playing on poor instruments.

 

[MarkThompson]

It’s probably best that I just stop coming to CAF, it’s just too frustrating for me.

Here’s the thing. I am a choir director at my parish. I make my selections of music based on the readings and following the guidelines of the music planner (OCP). The music that we play is based on the appropriate readings for that Sunday…there is no “My life sucked til I found Jesus” stuff during the liturgy. On a good day, we’ll have a piano, guitar, bass, drum, and flute plus the vocalists. None of us collects a paycheck from the parish…we are volunteers and we do our best to use our gifts to glorify God. We have no organ music because no one has stepped up to play the organ.

My question is this…why do so many people think that because music is contemporary and uses different instruments, that it is somehow less sacred than more traditional music? I’ve even heard it referred to as irreverent…and I completely fail to see how music that is BASED ON SCRIPTURE can be irreverent. Jesus is no less present on the altar, whether we worship Him with Gregorian chant or clashing symbols (Psalm 150).

Is there some actual church documents that say that we cannot use these instruments? Or is this all just a matter of personal preference?

I’m a touch late to this thread, but I wanted to say that although I guess there are some people for whom anything contemporary is bad because it’s contemporary, there are a lot more who find many contemporary things bad because they’re secular in nature, musically insipid, theologically questionable, gender-neutered, and so on.

It’s a red herring to point to being “based on Scripture” as making something appropriate for the liturgy of the Catholic Mass. Take, for instance, the first four verses of Psalm 149, which sound like plenty of songs from the 80s and 90s:
Hallelujah! Sing to the LORD a new song, a hymn in the assembly of the faithful.
Let Israel be glad in their maker, the people of Zion rejoice in their king.
Let them praise his name in festive dance, make music with tambourine and lyre.
For the LORD takes delight in his people, honors the poor with victory.
Okay, I guess we should have tambourines and festive dancing at Mass, right? Or wait, hold on, let’s imagine singing Stanza 2 of our little song, based on the next five verses of the same psalm:
Let the faithful rejoice in their glory, cry out for joy at their banquet,
With the praise of God in their mouths, and a two-edged sword in their hands,
To bring retribution on the nations, punishment on the peoples,
To bind their kings with chains, shackle their nobles with irons,
To execute the judgments decreed for them – such is the glory of all God’s faithful. Hallelujah!
Scripturally based? Check. Would any music director in a million years slate this as a “gathering hymn” for Mass? I think you know the answer to that.

 

[VociMike]

kristie, just understand that some people on this forum has taken their traditional stance to the extreme right, and are resistant to the changes of modern era. for them, any change would equal irreverence, concentrating only on the outside appearance without taking into account that reverence comes from the heart

as long as your parish and archdiocese says you can use those instruments, then they are not forbidden

“Left” and “Right” are not applicable in matters of liturgy or Church teaching. Something either accords with what the Church says, or it doesn’t. If I accept the Church teachings on liturgical music and on the death penalty, does that make me an extreme right wing extreme left winger?