Contemporary Praise Music - Too sensual?

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I think there should be a forum dedicated to complaints about music.

A knew thread is opened up in this forum on a weekly basis, complaining about music.

I think that the issue warrants a forum of its own. :rolleyes:

Jim
 
I think there should be a forum dedicated to complaints about music.

A knew thread is opened up in this forum on a weekly basis, complaining about music.

I think that the issue warrants a forum of its own. :rolleyes:

Jim
Even more than that, there should be canned responses. That way an entire exchange could be reduced to something like this:

Mike: 704
Jim: 866
Mike: 937, 422
Jim: 866! (and 721 for that matter)
Mike: in that case, 222!

There, I feel better already. 🙂
 
I think there should be a forum dedicated to complaints about music.

A knew thread is opened up in this forum on a weekly basis, complaining about music.

I think that the issue warrants a forum of its own. :rolleyes:

Jim
Au contraire.

I think what we should do is gather up all of the threads on every Catholic chatboard on the Net which complain about the state of music in the Church, put them all into a nice, tidy format, and send one copy of it to the USCCB and another to the Vatican, with a note appended reading, “So: what does this say to YOU??? It says to ME that there are a heckuva lot of Catholics in the pews out there who ain’t too happy about the current state of the music in their parishes. So, gentlemen: what do we intend to do about it?”
 
Au contraire.

I think what we should do is gather up all of the threads on every Catholic chatboard on the Net which complain about the state of music in the Church, put them all into a nice, tidy format, and send one copy of it to the USCCB and another to the Vatican, with a note appended reading, “So: what does this say to YOU??? It says to ME that there are a heckuva lot of Catholics in the pews out there who ain’t too happy about the current state of the music in their parishes. So, gentlemen: what do we intend to do about it?”
Just my personal feeling, but I’m fairly convinced that Benedict XVI will be having something authoritative to say about liturgical music. It’s obviously a subject dear to his heart, and he does seem to be undertaking a liturgical house-cleaning.
 
Just my personal feeling, but I’m fairly convinced that Benedict XVI will be having something authoritative to say about liturgical music. It’s obviously a subject dear to his heart, and he does seem to be undertaking a liturgical house-cleaning.
Well if its like many other things he’s done, he’ll make a statement, which will cause division among the faithful. Then the Vatican will have to re-issue the statement toning it down and tap dancing around what he actually meant, in order to save face.

Meanwhile, the Church will look like the cold institution of pre-Vatican II, where the people listen and the clergy tell them what to think, say and do.

Jim
 
Au contraire.

I think what we should do is gather up all of the threads on every Catholic chatboard on the Net which complain about the state of music in the Church, put them all into a nice, tidy format, and send one copy of it to the USCCB and another to the Vatican, with a note appended reading, “So: what does this say to YOU??? It says to ME that there are a heckuva lot of Catholics in the pews out there who ain’t too happy about the current state of the music in their parishes. So, gentlemen: what do we intend to do about it?”
And to be fair, gather up all the threads on every Catholic chatboards on the Net which express great pleasure and contentment about the state of music in the Church…and send it to the USCCB, too.

I would be in that camp. I’ve visited quite a few Catholic Churches since becoming Catholic three years ago, and I love the music!
 
I love good R&B and have done time in a band (and think that most popular “pop” music is trash) but I personally don’t think P&W has a place in the Mass.

Leaving aside matters of taste … the churches where this kind of music was born seem IME to have completely different service structures. Many refer to platform ministry and the band is indeed on a platform/stage. Their songs are in 2-3 item sets in between readings, talks, whatever, and the band is right there up front, centre stage and the music is the sole focus. Hymns/music at Mass take place while something else is occuring, such as an entrance procession, offertory procession, communion procession - hymns “accompany” other actions and the musical style (on top of all other considerations) should recognise that. A style that (if the music is any good within the genre) makes you want to move with the groove or get carried away on the individualistic emotions and messages P&W seems to concentrate on doesn’t seem appropriate to me.

(Mind you, at a workshop a few years ago I sat through a session where my co-tutor led some young’uns through the process of pulling some P&W pieces together as a band, and I have to say there were some lessons in humble church musicianship, love of God and service that some traditional church musicians I’ve met could learn a thing or six from …so I’m not bashing P&W musicians.)
 
was there a time when the music we consider proper now was seen as too contemporary or sensual? like when it was written maybe?
Trying to picture the ladies swooning to the crooning monks belting out some Gregorian Chant… Can’t quite make the image…

Fast forward a few centuries to “O Sacrament Most Holy” or “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” or “Tantum Ergo”…

Still… not really able to picture it. I don’t think the comparison seems very valid.
 
I don’t see what is so “astonishing” (your words) to hear this. This is exactly what happens when we receice the Eucharist. We become one with God. This is our relationship with Him (remember…marriage images the trinity and the relationship between Christ and His bride). The words capture perfectly what happens at Communion time. (Except that I change one word to make it more “catholic”. I change the word “cover” to “wash”).

Read theology of the body and Song of songs to learn more.
Agape,

Some of us who are familiar with both TOB and SOS and who very much understand (as finitely as we can) the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist… Well our concearn or thinking on this matter is not informed by ignorance on those things.

Truly TOB in fact is a masterful and brilliant summation of traditional church teaching expressed rather geniusly for a modern age where (western culture especially) we have lost our way, opting for the innovative options widely offered to modern man that contravene Catholic thinking and Natural Law.

That these lyrics may in fact well reflect or be aligned with Catholic thought, does not preclude that this may not in fact be the natural progression for liturgical music. Those of us who do not share in the enthusiasm for this styling are not doing so out of dissent or ignorance or misreceiving TOB or the communion aspect of the Eucharist. We (at least I) have reservation for this genre for other reasons.

I am intrigued much by some of the older explinations of the Liturgy (Roman Mass & Byzantine DL) that reference heavily the commonality and continuity of elelments of worship in both the old and new covenant. The Israelite’s highly prescribed Temple sacrifice - the liturgy, the liturgical year, the continence of the priests who serve at the altar, it much resonates through the ages to the world in the Catholic Church even today. Emphasis on the sacrifice and all manner of ritual reserved and unique to it - which underlies the contrast between the sacred and profane - is important to us.

I don’t use profane in the sense of profanity, of course, but in the classic understanding of that which is very much of the world and day to day.

The past ten years especially have given rise to a new liturgical movement seeking recapture of these classic and traditional understandings of liturgy and the music that serves it. Although it has gained a vibrancy demonstrating we are not just “old fashioned” or “in the past” many of us continue to hear “That’s great for you, but that just doesn’t play, kids don’t like it, it isn’t where we are now.” (Nevermind that that the Norbertines and Fraternity of Saint Peter with their over-flowing formation programs are filled with 20somethings…)

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Frequently this attitude seems rather dismissive or relegates us to the status of some sort of anachranistic curiosity seeker. The thinking being, I guess, that there is always a minority of people that will decorate their homes with finds from antique stores. Or you can always find the odd Young Fogey on a college campus in tweed & bow tie who has taken to having a sherry hour. A curious breed to be sure, but not all that terribly relevent, the thinking seems to imply.

I’m not an extremist, or out to ban anyone, or here to imply only my way is best and to the dogs with everyone else… I certainly don’t want to have this discussion go the way of some forums here on CAF where criticism and cynicism trump charity or honest efforts to understand.

But some of our critiques and concearns may be rather well founded, and bare consideration. The more I come to appreciate some of the more classical and traditional thinkings of the liturgy from both East & West, the less comfortable I am with some of this music in the context of the liturgy. And I am very much a supporter and student of the Theology of the Body.
 
My issue with Liturgical Music of the modern type is the “gender neutral” stuff; it just doesn’t flow. And the arrangements that have multitudes of variations from verse to verse; those are just plain hard to sing!:hypno:

On the other hand, I just can’t stand it when on a feast everything sounds like someone died and we’re singing a dirge.:(****
 
was there a time when the music we consider proper now was seen as too contemporary or sensual? like when it was written maybe?
Yup!

There was a time the Pope banned violins at Mass. Why? Because his assistant, played the violin and it irritated the Pope to hear violins. After he died, his assistant was made Pope, and lifted the ban.

You see, much of it has to do with taste in music.

Granted, liturgical music should lift your heart in prayer, rather than entice you to get up and line dance.

However, much of what gets complained about in this forum, has more to do with taste.

Jim
 
was there a time when the music we consider proper now was seen as too contemporary or sensual? like when it was written maybe?
Yes. One example is Mozart. Some of his sacred music is still considered too exuberant and joyfully inappropriate for mass, such as some of his settings of the Kyrie or the Agnus Dei, for example.

He was and is considered one of the greatest musical geniuses of his time and all time, but the bishop in Salzburg didn’t want his music played in mass in Salzburg, especially in the Cathedral. (If you go there now, though, they do a Mozart mass at their high mass practically every Sunday - at least when I was studying over there.) This was because he considered some of it inappropriate for mass. Also understand that he personally did not like Mozart and Mozart did not like him, as he felt too suffocated under the employment of the Archbishop, not being able to explore his artistic talents and the Archbishop only wanted him to stay at home rather than travel and promote his own works, so that probably added to the enmity. This is only a very brief history. (I just finished reading a great biography on him.)

But Mozart’s music was played a lot for mass in Vienna where they appreciated really good and new music. That said, this wasn’t a question of whether Mozart was musically talented and provided near-perfect music. There was no dispute about that. It was more about if this perfectly composed music was suitable for mass.

In terms of this music today, I won’t go into if Contemporary Praise music is written with the same perfection of Mozart or other musical geniuses. But in regards to the question of it being “too sensual”, I would say no. If people find it spiritually sensual, then I don’t think there is anything wrong with liking it. Most “good” music or music that people just like for whatever reason is “sensual”. It brings about an emotion that may not be brought about by other means. It doesn’t mean that it’s sexual emotion, but you can become spiritually inspired by a piece of music that is “performed” beautifully. It reaches your soul. As a musician and someone who uses music as a major means of prayer, music affects me in extremes. It either makes me physically ill or to the heights of ethereal spiritual bliss.

If the music brings about the wrong kind of sensuality at mass or for spiritual devotion, then maybe it is too sensual, per say, but I haven’t seen that to be the case with contemporary praise music.
 
What is sensual? Something that stirs the senses.

So what some of you are saying is that Gregorian chant does not stir your senses?

That’s not the impression I get when I read how much some of you adore it.
 
What is sensual? Something that stirs the senses.

So what some of you are saying is that Gregorian chant does not stir your senses?

That’s not the impression I get when I read how much some of you adore it.
Adore? Is that a charitable comment?
 
What is sensual? Something that stirs the senses.
Exactly… almost all music stirs the senses in a good or bad way. As I said in my rather long post, if the music was stirring the wrong kind of sensuality - like inspiring one to make immoral acts or whatever, then it is too “sensual”. But if it brings about a spiritual sensuality, then I find nothing wrong with it. I personally don’t care for that kind of music and tend to be “stirred” in a negative way by it, but some people do get spiritually “stirred”, and those feelings can’t be negated. I find nothing wrong with listening to it at home or at concerts if people do get enjoyment from it. At mass is another story, but I feel fortunate I do not have to worry about that at my church and that there are plenty of masses I can attend without having that kind of music.
 
They did this one at our church recently. Quite astonishing lyrics to hear at a Mass, really.

Your love is extravagantYour friendship, it is intimateI feel I’m moving to the rhythm of Your grace Your fragrance is intoxicating in the secret placeCause Your love is extravagantChorus:Spread wide in the arms of Christ is the love that covers sinNo greater love have I ever known; You considered me a friendCapture my heart againYour love is extravagantYour friendship, it is intimateI feel I’m moving to the rhythm of Your grace Your fragrance is intoxicating in the secret placeYour love is extravagantSpread wide in the arms of Christ is the love that covers sinNo greater love have I ever known; You considered me a friendCapture my heart againYour love is extravagantYour friendship, it is intimate
This is called The Fragrance Prayer and the original text was written by John Henry Newman and adapted by Mother Teresa to its current form. It was later recorded as a song by Tom Booth. None of these people conjure any thoughts of sensuality in my mind.

I hate that many people only think of intimacy in terms of sex or romance. The most intimate relationship in my life is with my Lord and Savior.
 
This is called The Fragrance Prayer and the original text was written by John Henry Newman and adapted by Mother Teresa to its current form. It was later recorded as a song by Tom Booth. None of these people conjure any thoughts of sensuality in my mind.

I hate that many people only think of intimacy in terms of sex or romance. The most intimate relationship in my life is with my Lord and Savior.
You will not find anything that I wrote that speaks of sex or romance. That is your projection. What I did (and do) question is the suitability of such sentiments in liturgical music. As I said before, show me equivalent sentiments in one or more of the Propers of the Mass, which are the most perfect model of liturgical music for the Mass. If you can do so, I will re-evaluate my judgement as to their suitability.
 
BTW, here is Mother Teresa’s Fragrance Prayer, found on a few different sites.

Dear Jesus, help me to spread your fragrance everywhere I go. Flood my soul with your spirit and life. Penetrate and possess my whole being so utterly that all my life may only be a radiance of yours. Shine through me, and be so in me that every soul I come in contact with may feel your presence in my soul. Let them look up and see no longer me but only you, dear Jesus! Stay with me, and then I shall begin to shine as you shine; so to shine as to be a light to others. The light, O Lord, will be all from you; none of it will be mine; it will be you, shining on others through me. Let me thus praise you in the way you love best, by shining on those around me. Let me preach you without preaching, not by words, but by my example, by the catching force, the sympathetic influence of what I do, the evident fullness of the love my heart bears to you. Amen.

Not by any stretch of the imagination the same as the lyrics I posted.
 
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