Contend against what is believed, not what is perceived

[JonNC]

In a recently closed thread, the last poster stated:

Where is Mary in Protestant church? the only answer I can say is that she was blessed by God to be use for His purpose by using her womb to bring His Son Jesus live as a man.
The bible verses you listed are sufficient for the reference of Mary. After Act, there are no other reference of Mary. Her role was just to bring about Jesus. Catholic teaching has elevated her to be equal to what Jesus has done which is not biblical.

While I believe the Blessed Virgin’s role is greater than the first paragraphs implies, the point of my thread is to the second paragraph, particularly what I’ve bolded. I have seen no where an intent on the part of Catholic teaching to elevate the Blessed Virgin to be equal with what Christ has done.

It goes both ways, at times, and it seems to me we serve no good purpose in arguing against what we perceive another to believe, instead of what they tell us they believe.
Just my POV.

Jon

PS: I did inform the poster of this thread, should he/she choose to clarify or debate my point.

 

[Timothy17]

In a recently closed thread, the last poster stated:

While I believe the Blessed Virgin’s role is greater than the first paragraphs implies, the point of my thread is to the second paragraph, particularly what I’ve bolded. I have seen no where an intent on the part of Catholic teaching to elevate the Blessed Virgin to be equal with what Christ has done.

It goes both ways, at times, and it seems to me we serve no good purpose in arguing against what we perceive another to believe, instead of what they tell us they believe.
Just my POV.

Jon

PS: I did inform the poster of this thread, should he/she choose to clarify or debate my point.

Can we all agree that it is absurd to say, " Her role was just to bring about Jesus" ?

She is the New Eve. She is the Ark of the New Covenant. The writers of the Gospels, intentionally or not, consciously or not, made her so by their accounts, though each one knew her, and loved her, for she was there with them at Pentecost and afterward. St. John, the one whom Jesus loved, informed them all of Jesus’ words as he was hanging from His Cross, issuing these words from His throne (" He reigned from the wood ") : " Behold thy mother ! Behold thy son ! " The King of Israel, the King of the Jews, issued that edict to his most faithful subjects, witnessed by all present at the scene of His glorification upon the Cross, as he was dying. Present there with Him were His mother and John. Notice that these words of his were commands. He is not simply requesting we " Behold [our] mother, " and " Behold [His - and her] son, " He is commanding it !

Pax,
Tim

 

[Newbie2]

Jon, you are a Catholic’s Lutheran.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Happy Thanksgiving and a Blessed Avent,

Have you not realized as yet that God has given some very special people the ability to know more about what you believe than you do?

 

[JonNC]

Can we all agree that it is absurd to say, " Her role was just to bring about Jesus" ?

She is the New Eve. She is the Ark of the New Covenant. The writers of the Gospels, intentionally or not, consciously or not, made her so by their accounts, though each one knew her, and loved her, for she was there with them at Pentecost and afterward. St. John, the one whom Jesus loved, informed them all of Jesus’ words as he was hanging from His Cross, issuing these words from His throne (" He reigned from the wood ") : " Behold thy mother ! Behold thy son ! " The King of Israel, the King of the Jews, issued that edict to his most faithful subjects, witnessed by all present at the scene of His glorification upon the Cross, as he was dying. Present there with Him were His mother and John. Notice that these words of his were commands. He is not simply requesting we " Behold [our] mother, " and " Behold [His - and her] son, " He is commanding it !

Pax,
Tim

Yes, Tim. While this wasn’t the intent of the thread, and while we might express our love and admiration for her in different ways, she truly was much more than simply a vessel.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Happy Thanksgiving and a Blessed Avent,

The same to you, Scott.

Have you not realized as yet that God has given some very special people the ability to know more about what you believe than you do?

lol. That some might have this special gift had not crossed my mind.

Originally posted by newbie2
Jon, you are a Catholic’s Lutheran.

Thank you my friend. There is a Catholic poster here who recently contended that those of us who confess sola fide do not believe in the importance of love (charity). Despite my best efforts to correct his misunderstanding, he persists.
It goes both way, and I believe gets in the way of charity and dialogue.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

While I believe the Blessed Virgin’s role is greater than the first paragraphs implies, the point of my thread is to the second paragraph, particularly what I’ve bolded. I have seen no where an intent on the part of Catholic teaching to elevate the Blessed Virgin to be equal with what Christ has done.

It goes both ways, at times, and it seems to me we serve no good purpose in arguing against what we perceive another to believe, instead of what they tell us they believe.
Just my POV.

Jon

PS: I did inform the poster of this thread, should he/she choose to clarify or debate my point.

Jon, thank you for always being so consistenty reasonable and fair. I couldn’t agree with you more. We should listen to other faith traditions and accept what they say they believe rather than what we perceive.

It is Jesus who gives Mary her dignity. Even the title of “Mother of God” says more about Jesus than it does about Mary. Her immaculate conception is due to the merits of her Son. Her role in salvation history is immense. It was through her free choice, her YES, that she became the mother of Jesus. The bottom line is that she is a creature like you and me, given a singular grace to become the mother of the Son of God. Because we are the mystical body of Christ, she is our mother as well and we honor her for her role in our salvation.

 

[mark_a]

It goes both ways, at times, and it seems to me we serve no good purpose in arguing against what we perceive another to believe, instead of what they tell us they believe.

Although I agree with what you state here, I sometimes find it difficult not to argue against another’s dilluded pov when I think they picked it up at their own church.

 

[JonNC]

Although I agree with what you state here, I sometimes find it difficult not to argue against another’s dilluded pov when I think they picked it up at their own church.

Hi Mark,
If it is their stated, albeit delluded, POV, by all means contend against it.

Jon

 

[area52]

Jon, thank you for always being so consistenty reasonable and fair. I couldn’t agree with you more. We should listen to other faith traditions and accept what they say they believe rather than what we perceive.

It is Jesus who gives Mary her dignity. Even the title of “Mother of God” says more about Jesus than it does about Mary. Her immaculate conception is due to the merits of her Son. Her role in salvation history is immense. It was through her free choice, her YES, that she became the mother of Jesus. The bottom line is that she is a creature like you and me, given a singular grace to become the mother of the Son of God. Because we are the mystical body of Christ, she is our mother as well and we honor her for her role in our salvation.

Can you tell me what role did Mary play in the salvation of man? Who was Peter refering to in Act 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Was Peter refering to Mary?

1TH5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your perception of Mary as the redeemer of the world is blasphamy to what Jesus has done on the cross. You are content to the teaching of the Roman Catholic church without searching for the thru Gospel, which is found in the Bible.

 

[Reuben_J]

Can you tell me what role did Mary play in the salvation of man? Who was Peter refering to in Act 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Was Peter refering to Mary?

1TH5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your perception of **Mary as the redeemer of the world **is blasphamy to what Jesus has done on the cross. You are content to the teaching of the Roman Catholic church without searching for the thru Gospel, which is found in the Bible.

This is certainly your own perception. Nowhere did SteveVH in his post mentioned this or even remotely hinted that Mary as the redeemer of the world.

 

[JonNC]

=area52;7311834]Can you tell me what role did Mary play in the salvation of man? Who was Peter refering to in Act 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Was Peter refering to Mary?

Area,
This is off the topic, but I think well worth discussing. Consider this, while I have nothing to do with the salvific nature of Baptism, and the forgiveness of sins that comes through it is not my doing, could you agree that my wife and I played a small role in our children’s faith by bringing them to Baptism and to regularly hearing the word?

I think this is akin to the role that Mary played.

Your perception of Mary as the redeemer of the world is blasphamy to what Jesus has done on the cross. You are content to the teaching of the Roman Catholic church without searching for the thru Gospel, which is found in the Bible.

This is the topic of the thread: you are free to disagree with Catholics regarding their veneration of Mary. Just make sure you are disagreeing with what they believe. They do not believe she is the redeemer.

Jon

 

[campeador]

Jon, you are a Catholic’s Lutheran.

Double

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

area52;7311834]Can you tell me what role did Mary play in the salvation of man?

She said yes, to being the Mother of Jesus. She provided for and raised the infant child and and young man. She lead people to him John 2:1-10.

Who was Peter refering to in Act 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Was Peter refering to Mary?

I maybe wronge , But I belive he was refering to Christ

1TH5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

And God choose Mary to be the instrument that brought forth that Salvation and she choose to say yes showing us what we must do. Remmenber a unwed pregnat women could be stoned todeath in her day.

Your perception of Mary as the redeemer of the world is blasphamy to what Jesus has done on the cross.

How dare you tell anyone what their precption is, No where has anyone on this thread or as the Catholic Church every said that Mary is our redeemer.

You are content to the teaching of the Roman Catholic church without searching for the thru Gospel, which is found in the Bible.

I have read and studied the Bible and the Gospels and find nothing in them that does not support the teaching of the Church.

I apoligize to you Jon and the other on here if some of my comments here are out of line, But the arrogance of this hit me wronge.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

SteveVH;7308333:

Jon, thank you for always being so consistenty reasonable and fair. I couldn’t agree with you more. We should listen to other faith traditions and accept what they say they believe rather than what we perceive.

It is Jesus who gives Mary her dignity. Even the title of “Mother of God” says more about Jesus than it does about Mary. Her immaculate conception is due to the merits of her Son. Her role in salvation history is immense. It was through her free choice, her YES, that she became the mother of Jesus. The bottom line is that she is a creature like you and me, given a singular grace to become the mother of the Son of God. Because we are the mystical body of Christ, she is our mother as well and we honor her for her role in our salvation.

Can you tell me what role did Mary play in the salvation of man? Who was Peter refering to in Act 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Was Peter refering to Mary?

1TH5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your perception of Mary as the redeemer of the world is blasphamy to what Jesus has done on the cross. You are content to the teaching of the Roman Catholic church without searching for the thru Gospel, which is found in the Bible.

Call me crazy but I do not see ANYTHING that Area52 said that is remotely close to what Steve said. You completely disregarded the whole point of JonNC’s post and “contend against what is believed and not what is percieved.” Mary brought to the world the Son of Man. As for the Acts 4:12 reference, it was Christ. Nobody Catholic believes otherwise. And no, Peter was not referring to Mary. Again, no Catholic believes salvation is found in Mary.

Amen to your Thessalonians verse! We do agree on that! Sweet!

And Steve did NOT remotely hint at Mary being the redeemer of the world! In case you did not understand it, I will break it down for you.

“It is Jesus who gives Mary her dignity.” This speaks for itself.

“Even the title of “Mother of God” says more about Jesus than it does about Mary.” Mother of God basically says that Jesus is both human and divine and those two are inseparable. It says very little about Mary but is still significant. This was easy also.

“Her immaculate conception is due to the merits of her Son.” “her Son” is Jesus and we have no quarrels with this. Maybe the Immaculate Conception part for non-Catholics but the point of this statement is that if it is true, then it is due to Jesus and Jesus alone.

“Her role in salvation history is immense.” She brought Jesus to the world is the role Steve is talking about. I suppose this is where you twisted the words and made it fit to your anti-Catholic prejudices.

“The bottom line is that she is a creature like you and me, given a singular grace to become the mother of the Son of God.” This speaks for itself. We do not elevate her above Christ.

“Because we are the mystical body of Christ, she is our mother as well and we honor her for her role in our salvation.” Her “role in our salvation” does not mean that we define that to be “she saved us from our sins.” It just means she had a role. It was a major role in that Mary brought Christ to our world.

I will agree with you on this in your last paragraph. It is the “…Mary as the redeemer of the world is blasphemy to what Jesus has done on the cross” part. BUT Steve (nor any other Catholic) has said anything close to “Mary is the redeemer of the world”.

As JonNC wants to start happening, “contend against what is BELIEVED and not what is PERCEIVED.” Honestly, I cannot even see how you perceived that.

Gregg

 

[GreggAlvarez]

You are content to the teaching of the Roman Catholic church without searching for the thru Gospel, which is found in the Bible.

What on God’s green earth does this even mean? Nobody in their right mind is saying the Roman Catholic Church is a Gospel or the true Gospel (whatever that means). And yes, the true Gospel is found in the Bible. What does the word “true” in the context you used mean anyway? Nobody thinks the Catholic Church is equivalent to a Gospel. (Does this even mean anything to anybody?) And what does “search FOR the true Gospel” mean? We all know where it is.

I am content with the teachings of the Church AND search through the Gospel in the Bible and SURPRISE! I am still Catholic because I find everything in Scriptures is succinct with its teachings. I realize this is debatable but that is not my point. It is not the Church either/or the Bible. It is a both/and kind of thing. Both the Church AND the Bible. I read the Bible. As a matter of fact, I will be reading the Gospel of John (and probably Hebrews) during Adoration at 2 a.m. to 3 a.m. Funny how Catholics are content with BOTH the Church AND the Bible.

JonNC,
Thanks for the thread! We may not agree on doctrines but I have the utmost respect for your beliefs. I hope you know that. God bless.
Gregg

 

[area52]

Call me crazy but I do not see ANYTHING that Area52 said that is remotely close to what Steve said. You completely disregarded the whole point of JonNC’s post and “contend against what is believed and not what is percieved.” Mary brought to the world the Son of Man. As for the Acts 4:12 reference, it was Christ. Nobody Catholic believes otherwise. And no, Peter was not referring to Mary. Again, no Catholic believes salvation is found in Mary.

Amen to your Thessalonians verse! We do agree on that! Sweet!

And Steve did NOT remotely hint at Mary being the redeemer of the world! In case you did not understand it, I will break it down for you.

“It is Jesus who gives Mary her dignity.” This speaks for itself.

“Even the title of “Mother of God” says more about Jesus than it does about Mary.” Mother of God basically says that Jesus is both human and divine and those two are inseparable. It says very little about Mary but is still significant. This was easy also.

“Her immaculate conception is due to the merits of her Son.” “her Son” is Jesus and we have no quarrels with this. Maybe the Immaculate Conception part for non-Catholics but the point of this statement is that if it is true, then it is due to Jesus and Jesus alone.

“Her role in salvation history is immense.” She brought Jesus to the world is the role Steve is talking about. I suppose this is where you twisted the words and made it fit to your anti-Catholic prejudices.

“The bottom line is that she is a creature like you and me, given a singular grace to become the mother of the Son of God.” This speaks for itself. We do not elevate her above Christ.

“Because we are the mystical body of Christ, she is our mother as well and we honor her for her role in our salvation.” Her “role in our salvation” does not mean that we define that to be “she saved us from our sins.” It just means she had a role. It was a major role in that Mary brought Christ to our world.

I will agree with you on this in your last paragraph. It is the “…Mary as the redeemer of the world is blasphemy to what Jesus has done on the cross” part. BUT Steve (nor any other Catholic) has said anything close to “Mary is the redeemer of the world”.

As JonNC wants to start happening, “contend against what is BELIEVED and not what is PERCEIVED.” Honestly, I cannot even see how you perceived that.

Gregg

I understand that this is not the right thread for discussion on Mary. However, much of your perceived belief of Mary is from the teaching of the church. No verses in the bible ever made Mary greater/equal to Jesus. I don’t have issue on your belief, however, your perception of Mary can only be from the teaching of the church. I had visited the vatican.va/phome_en.htm and had read several writting on Mary. I am familiar to what the church teaches and its belief. I was raised catholic for most of my life and I know its tradition and its teaching. By God’s grace it was 10 years ago that He open my eyes and I now see the error of the catholic teaching.

“Her immaculate conception is due to the merits of her Son.”

This is partly not correct. There is NO ONE BORN WITHOUT SIN (i.e. immaculate conception) other than JESUS. She was sinful like you and me. However, because of God, He merits her to become the mother of Jesus.

“Her role in salvation history is immense.” She brought Jesus to the world is the role Steve is talking about. I suppose this is where you twisted the words and made it fit to your anti-Catholic prejudices.

If your belief is what you stated, then this should be re-written- “Her role to give birth to Jesus who will be the savior of the world is historically immense”. But it was not written that way. The sentence read like she has a role in salvation.
Also, Mary could have refuse Gabriel anousement. However, because of God omniscience, He knew that Mary will accept.

“Because we are the mystical body of Christ, **she is our mother as well and we honor her **for her role in our salvation.” Her “role in our salvation” does not mean that we define that to be “she saved us from our sins.” It just means she had a role. It was a major role in that Mary brought Christ to our world.

Mat 12:47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” [fn]
Mat 12:48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
Mat 12:49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
Mat 12:50 **For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” **

I think the greatest insult to God is that His creation (Mary) is praised more than His son. Several titles given to Mary (Litany of blessed Mary) are titles that is for Jesus alone.

 

[area52]

What on God’s green earth does this even mean? Nobody in their right mind is saying the Roman Catholic Church is a Gospel or the true Gospel (whatever that means). And yes, the true Gospel is found in the Bible. What does the word “true” in the context you used mean anyway? Nobody thinks the Catholic Church is equivalent to a Gospel. (Does this even mean anything to anybody?) And what does “search FOR the true Gospel” mean? We all know where it is.

I am content with the teachings of the Church AND search through the Gospel in the Bible and SURPRISE! I am still Catholic because I find everything in Scriptures is succinct with its teachings. I realize this is debatable but that is not my point. It is not the Church either/or the Bible. It is a both/and kind of thing. Both the Church AND the Bible. I read the Bible. As a matter of fact, I will be reading the Gospel of John (and probably Hebrews) during Adoration at 2 a.m. to 3 a.m. Funny how Catholics are content with BOTH the Church AND the Bible.

JonNC,
Thanks for the thread! We may not agree on doctrines but I have the utmost respect for your beliefs. I hope you know that. God bless.
Gregg

oops… my bad… I THOUGHT THE CHURCH DOES NOT BELIEVED IN SOLA SCRIPTURA. They put more weight on TRADITION (which is partly not written down)

Great that you will read the Gospel of John and Hebrew. May the Holy Spirit guide and minister to you… Amen

 

[campeador]

“Behold, from henceforth All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed”

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

oops… my bad… I THOUGHT THE CHURCH DOES NOT BELIEVED IN SOLA SCRIPTURA. They put more weight on TRADITION (which is partly not written down)

As someone that says they were reaised catholic and knows what the church teaches you should know that the Church does not place scripture or tradition above the other.

They are equal in authority and dignity and form 2 of the 3 legs of teaching that come from the church. Guess maybe you don’t know as much about what the church teaches as you thought.