Contend against what is believed, not what is perceived

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area52 said:
I think the greatest insult to God is that His creation (Mary) is praised more than His son. Several titles given to Mary (Litany of blessed Mary) are titles that is for Jesus alone.
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And those would be?
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
As someone that says they were reaised catholic and knows what the church teaches you should know that the Church does not place scripture or tradition above the other.

They are **equal in authority **and dignity and form 2 of the 3 legs of teaching that come from the church. Guess maybe you don’t know as much about what the church teaches as you thought.
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Can you tell me what Jesus think about tradition-

Mat 15:1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
Mat 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
Mat 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ [fn] and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ [fn]
Mat 15:5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
Mat 15:6 he is not to ‘honor his father [fn]’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Mat 15:7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
Mat 15:8 " ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Mat 15:9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ [fn]”
 
area52 said:
Can you tell me what Jesus think about tradition-

Mat 15:1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
Mat 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
Mat 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ [fn] and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ [fn]
Mat 15:5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
Mat 15:6 he is not to ‘honor his father [fn]’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Mat 15:7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
Mat 15:8 " ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Mat 15:9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ [fn]”
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You are confussing tradition and Tradition.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
And those would be?
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She is not “the seat of wisdom” nor is she the “refuge of sinners”, or the “Queen of the prophets”, the “Queen of the apostles,” or the “Comforter of the afflicted.” Jesus is the King, the Lord, and he sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit that we might have the presence of God dwelling within us.
 
area52 said:
She is not “the seat of wisdom” nor is she the “refuge of sinners”, or the “Queen of the prophets”, the “Queen of the apostles,” or the “Comforter of the afflicted.” Jesus is the King, the Lord, and he sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit that we might have the presence of God dwelling within us.
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So Jesus is the Queen of the prophets", the "Queen of the apostles? You can not pick these these out without looking at the whole of what is knwo and taught about the BVM.

Comforter of the Allicted: By her example those afficted with pains of the suffing of loved ones she shows us how to be strong and not lose faith.

But wait you were raised Catholic you know all this already, So why do you distort what the Church teaches and what Catholic believe? I know not why feel the need to not only attack the Chruch, but to Attack the BMV, I know as her son this more than likly does not make Jesus happy.
 
I know the point of the thread. You are content to your belief no matter what others perception of that belief.

What I am stating is that the perception of that belief could have been influence outside of your own experience. Are you catholic because thats how you were brought up?

My parents are devout catholic and their parents who raised them as such. So they raised their children as catholic as well. They did not have any tools to know the difference. Not like what we have today.
 
area52 said:
I know the point of the thread. You are content to your belief no matter what others perception of that belief.

What I am stating is that the perception of that belief could have been influence outside of your own experience. Are you catholic because thats how you were brought up?

My parents are devout catholic and their parents who raised them as such. So they raised their children as catholic as well. They did not have any tools to know the difference. Not like what we have today.
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I have been non-practicing Protestant, Agnostic, Fundamental Baptist, CMA, and finally Catholic. I have seen the arguments against Catholicism from both a theistic and atheistic POV. The problem is that arguments against Catholicism are not based on what The Church truly teaches, as you hae so wonderfully demonstrated.
 
I would not say this exchange of view are fruitless. Catholic and non-Catholic can strengthen their faith on this forum.
 
area52 said:
I would not say this exchange of view are fruitless. Catholic and non-Catholic can strengthen their faith on this forum.
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Now this I truly agree with. However, the exchange becomes fruitless when:
  1. one brings an incorrect perception regarding the beliefs of another to the discussion, and
  2. then persists in that incorrect perception even when corrected with evidence and confession of belief.
If we listen to each other, then our faiths can be strengthened, as well as our charity and love for one another.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Now this I truly agree with. However, the exchange becomes fruitless when:
  1. one brings an incorrect perception regarding the beliefs of another to the discussion, and
  2. then persists in that incorrect perception even when corrected with evidence and confession of belief.
If we listen to each other, then our faiths can be strengthened, as well as our charity and love for one another.

Jon
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Jon,

What is really pointless is someone that claims to have once been of a certain Faith then continues to make false claims even when corrected. OH well such is life. I myself study what the church teaches and relie on others to tell me what there communities teach and beleve. Even as a person that has been a member of different faith group during my life I would never try to tell someone of that faith what they teach or beleive. I would point out from what they could possibly say what I find lacking in that and why I came back to the Catholic Faith, But hey thats just me.😃
 
area52 said:
I understand that this is not the right thread for discussion on Mary. However, much of your perceived belief of Mary is from the teaching of the church. No verses in the bible ever made Mary greater/equal to Jesus. I don’t have issue on your belief, however, your perception of Mary can only be from the teaching of the church. I had visited the vatican.va/phome_en.htm and had read several writting on Mary. I am familiar to what the church teaches and its belief. I was raised catholic for most of my life and I know its tradition and its teaching. By God’s grace it was 10 years ago that He open my eyes and I now see the error of the catholic teaching.
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So, I would like for YOU to tell ME what MY “perceived belief” (whatever that means)of Mary is. Since, I know what my belief is and you clearly do not, you can at least tell me what my perceived belief is and I will just discard it. Mary’s doctrine is from the teaching of the Church. Being a former Catholic, you should know that the Church teaches from Sacred Tradition and you know what that includes. And your statement about Mary being greater/equal to Jesus is superfluous. Nobody thinks that. Is that our “perceived belief”? Your perceptions on our “perceived belief”? As usual, you do NOT know our belief. What was the point of that last statement? Are you saying that God opened my eyes after atheism but closed them after I came to the Church. Trust me on that one. I LOOK for errors. I cannot find them but I can sure make them. As a former atheist, I am as objective as they come and clearly more objective than you. No bias allowed in my head but clearly is quite welcome in yours; otherwise, we would not be trying to correct you on our belief.
area52 said:
This is partly not correct. There is NO ONE BORN WITHOUT SIN (i.e. immaculate conception) other than JESUS. She was sinful like you and me. However, because of God, He merits her to become the mother of Jesus.
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I was just stating our belief so as to not confuse people on what we believe. This IS what we believe because you porbably do not know what it means. But considering not even your Bible says this and to keep in context of the thread, I will just skip it.
area52 said:
  1. If your belief is what you stated, then this should be re-written- “Her role to give birth to Jesus who will be the savior of the world is historically immense”. But it was not written that way. The sentence read like she has a role in salvation.
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I think you finally understand what we are saying. BUT you STILL tried to correct me. To your credit though, we believe that (your quotations) too. Again, I was stating what we believe so people would not be confused. She had a role in our salvation. That is our belief.
area52 said:
Also, Mary could have refuse Gabriel anousement. However, because of God omniscience, He knew that Mary will accept.
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Agreed.
area52 said:
Mat 12:47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” [fn]
Mat 12:48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
Mat 12:49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
Mat 12:50 **For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” **
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Agreed.
area52 said:
  1. I think the greatest insult to God is that His creation (Mary) is praised more than His son.
  2. Several titles given to Mary (Litany of blessed Mary) are titles that is for Jesus alone.
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  1. Agreed. Can you tell me who is guilty of that? Gee, I wonder what your are going to say.
  2. Hmmm… I am unsure how to even respond to this. I may actually be ignorant on this but who has ever called Mary “Litany of Blessed Mary”?
 
area52 said:
oops… my bad… 1. I THOUGHT THE CHURCH DOES NOT BELIEVED IN SOLA SCRIPTURA. 2. They put more weight on TRADITION (which is partly not written down)
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  1. True. That thought would be right. Gold star for you! You actually got something right about the Church. Even though it seems you may have second-guessed yourself.
  2. False. You were so close to getting a 100% on your grade. (I may not be the most intelligent of troglodytes nor can I win a Bible verse-slinging match, BUT I will win a sarcasm battle.) “More weight on tradition”… Hmm. I will let you ponder your own intrinsic contradiction on your ideas about the Church. If you do not find it, you can ask. Probably PM me though because I have been having trouble logging on. And internetting from my phone does not help my cause either
area52 said:
Great that you will read the Gospel of John and Hebrew. May the Holy Spirit guide and minister to you… Amen
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Thank you! 🙂 I think that cyber-prayer worked. It was actually a VERY insightful night. I ended up reading half the New Testament. Not quite sure how it happened, but it did.
 
area52 said:
Can you tell me what role did Mary play in the salvation of man?
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No Mary, no Jesus. It’s kind of hard to have God born among men with out a woman being part of it at some point. Unless, you want to deny the fact that Christ was born at all.
area52 said:
Your perception of Mary as the redeemer of the world is blasphamy to what Jesus has done on the cross. You are content to the teaching of the Roman Catholic church without searching for the thru Gospel, which is found in the Bible.
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I don’t think that SteveVH is saying that Mary is the redeemer of the world. How ever her singular role of being the God bearer, the Theotokos, does give her a place of honor. And as Steve put it, she said YES to God. She allowed herself to become part of this great Mystery in the Incarnation. The woman just wasn’t some breeding cow on a farm.
 
JonNC said:
Now this I truly agree with. However, the exchange becomes fruitless when:
  1. one brings an incorrect perception regarding the beliefs of another to the discussion, and
  2. then persists in that incorrect perception even when corrected with evidence and confession of belief.
If we listen to each other, then our faiths can be strengthened, as well as our charity and love for one another.

Jon
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👍
 
area52 said:
I’m not attacking anyone. And I am not alone in the perceptions.
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Your perceptions and those of others are not important. Argue against either what the Church teaches, what it promotes as practice, a persons personal understanding of what the Church teaches, or what they practice. Perceptions mean nothing, because then it is your opinion arguing against nothing.
 
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