Content of books

[revert_jen]

Thank you for highlighting that I’m ignorant for having an opposing opinion to yours.

Well, you said that you couldn’t see how reading a book can cause someone to sin. I was merely pointing out that the fact that you can’t see how it happens, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I didn’t call you ignorant. I wasn’t even thinking that you were ignorant, just maybe you had blinders on a little.

I’m not really certain what you’re going on about here. Jane Eyre?!? If anything it was rather positive, especially towards the end. Have you finished the novel? Jane overcomes her bleak past and lack of self confidence to win the heart of the dashing Mr Rochester. You sure you’re not thinking of Wuthering Heights?

Yes, I’m sure I have finished the book several times, and I’m sure it’s not Wuthering Heights. The book has a mood that affects me in the way I described. I become engrossed, and the “happy ending” (?!) is too short to lift it. Also Mr. Rochester is not very dashing with a missing hand and eye, a mutilated arm and blind in the other eye, too, but that is not the point. I wasn’t saying that my particular reaction to Jane Eyre is relevant, just giving an example of how books can affect you.

I think you are misrepresenting the church if you are saying that reading books is a spiritual danger. There are spiritual dangers in everything we do, I would say the least of these is in reading books.

You seem to be misunderstanding me rather seriously. My position is not that reading books is bad. If you could see the bookshelves in my living room, you would laugh at the idea. My position is that it possible for some people to come to spiritual harm through reading some books. It is that you need to pay attention when you are reading and not necessarily let the author’s POV wash though you without your noticing it.

But your original posts and some of your above points don’t bring across how you are censoring the books you read.

Actually they do.

“Regarding the OP’s question, if it’s just a question of plot rather than veiled pornography then you have to ask what the effect of the book is on you. And in order to do that, you have to read it, or at least part of it.”

“Personally I agree you should [give an author the benefit of the doubt until you find that they really are glorifying bad behavior], unless you actually feel spiritually troubled while reading it.”

Basically, you read it unless/until you find it bothers you. But you pay attention to what you are reading and think about how it is affecting you.

Should we fear to read the unknown because it may possibly mention something that opposes our beliefs?

You keep talking about fear. I am not talking about fear. I am talking about prudence. i am talking about paying attention to what you put in your own head. I never said to avoid all books that contain mention of something contrary to our beliefs. For heaven’s sake, I said I read mysteries, and most of them contain murders. The very best of them manage to portray the murderers as sympathetic while still retaining, in the forefront of your mind, that they must be caught anyway–not even for society’s sake, but for their own, so they will stop killing and damaging their own souls by it.

What are you to do when reading fantasy, science fiction, or historical novels where Judeo-Christian ethic does not exist? In such cases you can’t hold the main characters up to our moral standards, because they have no idea about the Christian doctrine.

I don’t enjoy science fiction–possibly for that very reason. I don’t feel that “the Judeo-Christian ethic” is something that religion has imposed on people from the outside. I feel that much of it is part of the natural law, which is an inherent part of people (one that they frequently fight aganst it is true, but a natural part all the same). Books written about people who aren’t aware of natural law and aren’t affected by it just don’t seem true-to-life to me. The people aren’t like real people to me and are therefore not very interesting.

I know Shondy goes on to say more about that it may lead you to sin. But if that’s going to happen, then you were looking for the excuse to do so and probably weren’t interested in what you were reading in the first place.

Maybe you are never influenced by what you read, so you don’t understand what we are talking about. In that case you will just have to take it from me that for some people it is possible, without looking for any excuses, and really interested in the book, to be influenced by what you read. It really is possible to read books and have one’s interest in the plot and the characters blind one to the agenda or sinful POV of the author, so that one partially takes it on onesself without noticing.

We all have things that, by the grace of God, do not tempt us. Perhaps this is one of yours. I personally am not tempted to gambling addiction, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a real temptation to others.

I’m not saying this from the position of a person who never reads anything but “improving” books, but from the position of a person who has read a boatload of all sorts of books and knows what they can do.

By the way I loved this one.

You’re such a student.

Nope, I haven’t been for, well, we just won’t mention how many years. I meant Adult Ed stuff. Too bad, it was funnier the way you took it.

–Jen

 

[Shadark]

Hell’s bells these posts are getting longer…

Shondy, I can see where you’re coming from. Although I haven’t watched a good anime in a long while now. What you describe sounds interesting. Stories about dystopian societies always rock my world, so do post-apocalyptic ones. If you want to want to watch something that has people facing sin galore in it, go out and get the HBO series of Rome or Deadwood if you haven’t already.

revert_jen:

The book has a mood that affects me in the way I described. I become engrossed, and the “happy ending” (?!) is too short to lift it. Also Mr. Rochester is not very dashing with a missing hand and eye, a mutilated arm and blind in the other eye, too, but that is not the point. I wasn’t saying that my particular reaction to Jane Eyre is relevant, just giving an example of how books can affect you.

For a Bronte sister story, I think the ending is quite happy. Besides, what else was there to be said? Both of them were happy, although yes I admit Mr Rochester wasn’t at the heights of debonair that he was at the beginning of the story. But it shows how much Jane loved him that such disabilities did not phase her. But I guess each to their own. You’re probably a Mr Thornton woman anyway…

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on the possible temptations in book content. Perhaps you are right that I am ‘resistant’ to the content of some books that breaks with the ‘natural law’. But it may be that I’ve read about these things that many times now that I’m desensitized to it. Probably just like a priest who has to listen to every second you adult coming in to confess that they’ve fornicated…again. But I think it’s more the fact that I don’t take it seriously and remember that it’s just a story. Don’t get me wrong though, I still get engrossed in books to the point where I’m looking through the eyes of the narrator. I mean that’s why I read in the first place. But after I’ve put the book down, it’s back to reality and I just get on with it. At times though, I do lament that I can’t just physically escape in to some of these wonderful stories and worlds.

Btw, I’m guessing that from you’re note of not being a student a while and attending Adult Ed, that you are likely in your late 20s. Your mentioning of playing video games and talking to your friends on the phone, further confirms this. This also leads me to believe you are single.

revert_jen:

Nope, I haven’t been for, well, we just won’t mention how many years. I meant Adult Ed stuff. Too bad, it was funnier the way you took it.

Once a student, always a student. Btw, I’m guessing it’s been 10 years.

 

[revert_jen]

Btw, I’m guessing that from you’re note of not being a student a while and attending Adult Ed, that you are likely in your late 20s.

No comment.

Your mentioning of playing video games and talking to your friends on the phone, further confirms this. This also leads me to believe you are single.

Hmm. My mother does these things, and she is certainly not in her 20s (or 30s, or 40s, etc.). She’s not single, either. I’m one of those rare people whose parents are still married to each other. Anyway, people come in a very wide variety.

–Jenni

 

[hellopeople]

specifically yes, it is a sin to read any books of impure nature,
it doesn’t matter if they’re married or not, you should not read about 2 people having sex(or doing anything impure)

the church tells us to read good and useful books, and to refrain from reading books simply out of curiosity or books we know to have impure content or that belittle morality, scoff at virtue or cause doubts regarding the churches teachings.

ok? hope this help, tc.

Are you serious? So classics like catcher in the rye are a sin?

 

[Joe_5859]

Are you serious? So classics like catcher in the rye are a sin?

Reading Catcher in the Rye is a sin, but for other reasons: it is a sin to waste valueable time.

(Sorry, I really don’t like that book. )

 

[shondrea]

Reading Catcher in the Rye is a sin, but for other reasons: it is a sin to waste valueable time.

(Sorry, I really don’t like that book. )

Ah, we were suppose to read that one for my high school English class…er, suppose to being the opperative word! That, and The Scarlet Letter…just couldn’t get into them.

 

[EmeraldWings]

@EmeraldWings and revert_jen
What do you guys do when you get home? Twiddle your thumbs and wait to go to bed time?

hmm, well i’m not gunna defend myself and start telling you everything i do, but i will say this,
when you watch tv or read books, are your watching and reading about other people watching tv and reading books, or are you watching and reading about other people living their lives?..well obviously your watching others live their lives, and so if you can watch these shows of people doing all sorts of things and occupying their time with hobbies and interests and hanging out with friends and whatever else, then what makes you think that watching tv and reading books and playing games is all there is to do? if you don’t read about it and watch it as much as you do it, then that’s obviously not all there is to do.

and i personally just don’t like watching others live their lives, i prefer to live my own life,
of course i read good books, not *just *religious books, and i watch good shows such as the saint stories or other safe to watch things(although only once in awhile) so it’s not like i’m saying it’s utterly evil and wrong to watch tv, but i enjoy life and i want to live it, not watch it.
Don Bosco says “Have as much fun as you like, so long as you keep from sin”, and in my personal experience i know that that is completely possible and reasonable,

we are to guard ourselves from bad books, just as we are to guard ourselves from bad companions, they do have an influence on us, especially if we are not that well instructed in our morals and virtues, of course *what *is considered a bad book is debatable to a point,
but do you think there will be anything like that in heaven? there is no sin in heaven at all, not in the least, so why would you want any part of it at all in this life? even in books…it offends God because it is contrary to Him, He has no part in it, and He is offended at such things because they do hurt us…and we should be like minded, we should always want only what God wants, He should be first in our life and the top leader and consultant in our choices and decisions.

well anyways, i’m not saying that you will go to hell for reading books with reference to bad things, all i’m saying is there is much MUCH more to life than tv and books and video games.

 

[EmeraldWings]

Are you serious? So classics like catcher in the rye are a sin?

just because something is a “classic” doesn’t make it ok to read, although i can’t tell you if “catcher in the rye” is good cause i’ve never even read it, but that is really something that is up to the reader(and the church) to decide based on their knowledge of right and wrong and morals and virtues…
i can’t start naming off all the books that are good or bad to read…really…it’s not to hard to tell if something is raunchy or not, sometimes things are clearly bad, and sometimes it’s hard to tell, and when it’s hard to tell, just consult your priest, no need to freak out…

 

[Rascalking]

Read nothing. Watch nothing. Listen to no one. Stare at the ceiling. If you think of anything, cut yourself with shreds of broken glass until you pass out from loss of blood. Then, when you wake up, immediately go back to punishing yourself. I suggest lighting yourself on fire with a Zippo lighter. Everything is sinful. Heck, even inhaling oxygen-you might be stealing it from someone else.

Oh my goodness. Is this thread serious? Are people saying not to read classics like Dickens, Shakespeare, Austen—anything that might have sinful behavior in it?

People who think that way need to double their dosage and get back to the sanitarium.

The difference between reading porn and reading novels and is so vast no reasonable person would even bring it up.

 

[EmeraldWings]

Read nothing. Watch nothing. Listen to no one. Stare at the ceiling. If you think of anything, cut yourself with shreds of broken glass until you pass out from loss of blood. Then, when you wake up, immediately go back to punishing yourself. I suggest lighting yourself on fire with a Zippo lighter. Everything is sinful. Heck, even inhaling oxygen-you might be stealing it from someone else.

Oh my goodness. Is this thread serious? Are people saying not to read classics like Dickens, Shakespeare, Austen—anything that might have sinful behavior in it?

People who think that way need to double their dosage and get back to the sanitarium.

The difference between reading porn and reading novels and is so vast no reasonable person would even bring it up.

no one is saying anything like that, and what i said is that it’s clear when a book is raunchy, and when it is unclear consult a priest, it’s that easy, you just need temperance and discretion,
the main fact is, there are alot of bad books out there, that’s quite obvious, but we don’t have to be scrupulous about it, or go to the extremes, it’s just a matter of knowing what’s good and what’s bad, and then acting accordingly. like for example, books that are clearly immoral, or books that are intended to arouse you,
although there are many more factors then that, but there are alot of bad books because there are just alot of bad people, especially nowadays, we should be careful with what we read, not scrupulous or extreme, but just careful.

 

[Rascalking]

no one is saying anything like that, and what i said is that it’s clear when a book is raunchy, and when it is unclear consult a priest, it’s that easy, you just need temperance and discretion,
the main fact is, there are alot of bad books out there, that’s quite obvious, but we don’t have to be scrupulous about it, or go to the extremes, it’s just a matter of knowing what’s good and what’s bad, and then acting accordingly. like for example, books that are clearly immoral, or books that are intended to arouse you,
although there are many more factors then that, but there are alot of bad books because there are just alot of bad people, especially nowadays, we should be careful with what we read, not scrupulous or extreme, but just careful.

I think it’s clear to everyone that I was using sarcasm to make a point-not quote anyone. I know that “no one is saying anything like that”. What I still find really amusing are some of these questions and responses.

 

[EmeraldWings]

I think it’s clear to everyone that I was using sarcasm to make a point-not quote anyone. I know that “no one is saying anything like that”. What I still find really amusing are some of these questions and responses.

yes i realize that, i was referring to this -
“Oh my goodness. Is this thread serious? Are people saying not to read classics like Dickens, Shakespeare, Austen—anything that might have sinful behavior in it?”

sinful reference is one thing, outright lewd or raunchy behavior is another, like i said, it’s a matter of knowing your morals and virtues, and having good discretion, i’m not making any definite judgments on any particular books, for one because i haven’t read any bad books, so i can’t say, but as a good catholic, it should be easy to tell,
so if you know your stuff, and think a book is fine, well then ok, but when in doubt, you can ask a priest,
that’s all i’m saying…not trying to be rude or anything, so sorry if i come off that way, i understand where your coming from and all, but the first couple of posts i made i was also just a little confused about the original post.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

but do you think there will be anything like that in heaven? there is no sin in heaven at all, not in the least, so why would you want any part of it at all in this life? even in books…it offends God because it is contrary to Him, He has no part in it, and He is offended at such things because they do hurt us…and we should be like minded, we should always want only what God wants, He should be first in our life and the top leader and consultant in our choices and decisions.

No offense, but I personally don’t dream of heaven until I know I’m close to being, you know, dead?

Living people (as of this century) want something to relate to. Being alive is not heaven (heck it can even be closer to hell at times), so what makes you think that they would wanna read/watch something that is full of nothing but characters who look like cardboard cutouts of the saints? All it does is alienate them. Those people talk of heaven, a place that is too perfect and ambiguous to reflect whatever sad reality they’re living in right now. They can’t relate to something like that and it doesn’t reach out to them in a way good literature does.

Personally, the only time I’ll make characters like that is so I can contrast them to people who are more likely to exist in our reality (minus the super powers or cursed abilities of course ).

well anyways, i’m not saying that you will go to hell for reading books with reference to bad things, all i’m saying is there is much MUCH more to life than tv and books and video games.

Unless of course your career path is directly involved with the creation of TV, books, and video games.

 

[EmeraldWings]

No offense, but I personally don’t dream of heaven until I know I’m close to being, you know, dead?

Living people (as of this century) want something to relate to. Being alive is not heaven (heck it can even be closer to hell at times), so what makes you think that they would wanna read/watch something that is full of nothing but characters who look like cardboard cutouts of the saints? All it does is alienate them. Those people talk of heaven, a place that is too perfect and ambiguous to reflect whatever sad reality they’re living in right now. They can’t relate to something like that and it doesn’t reach out to them in a way good literature does.

Personally, the only time I’ll make characters like that is so I can contrast them to people who are more likely to exist in our reality (minus the super powers or cursed abilities of course ).

having death always before your eyes is a very good thing, because you never know when God will take you, old people may know when they are close to dieing, but we never really know, and having death before your eyes is also a good means of keeping yourself in check…*“Take care of your body as if you were going to live forever; and take care of your soul as if you were going to die tomorrow.” *~ St. Augustine…i love that quote…

yes this world is a miserable place, more related to hell then heaven, although immeasurably far off from both, i can’t help it if personally i want no part of this world, but i don’t push that off on others, it’s a personal thing…and a good thing, even if i live in the world, i don’t live of it, and i’m happy.
i never said i thought everyone should watch what i watch, i simply said that is what i watch, and although i agree they are not perfect portrayals of the saints lives, they are still very good, they can only do so much you know?
besides, heaven is not something to relate to, it’s something to look forward to, as much as we don’t deserve it, it’s ok to want it and look forward to it.

 

[Rascalking]

yes this world is a miserable place.

Do you really believe that? Maybe I’m taking it out of context…I hope I am, for your sake.

Sure, there are things in the world that are ugly and cruel-but my goodness, the world is such a wonderful gift from our creator-we should show much more gratitude toward God for giving us a world with SUCH beauty.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

having death always before your eyes is a very good thing, because you never know when God will take you, old people may know when they are close to dieing, but we never really know, and having death before your eyes is also a good means of keeping yourself in check…*“Take care of your body as if you were going to live forever; and take care of your soul as if you were going to die tomorrow.” *~ St. Augustine…i love that quote…

We may never really now but we always have stats to back up probabilities. I’ll take confidence in the fact that the average human has a life span of around 80 years. I believe such a high amount of time is better spent off knowing how to live it than to while away and dreaming of heaven which is still so faaar away.

i never said i thought everyone should watch what i watch, i simply said that is what i watch, and although i agree they are not perfect portrayals of the saints lives, they are still very good, they can only do so much you know?
besides, heaven is not something to relate to, it’s something to look forward to, as much as we don’t deserve it, it’s ok to want it and look forward to it.

You forget, we’re discussing storytelling here. Even Jesus had to create his parables in a way that could relate to the masses. Are his parables a vision of heaven? No. Did their message pass through though? Yes. It’s because they were something the people could relate to.

 

[edwest2]

I’m troubled by some of the posts in here.

Some of the greatest works in the English language have morally questionable behavior. Should we not read Shakespeare? Dickens? Tolstoy?

I’m sorry Emeraldwings. Nothing personal-and I mean that dearly-but I disagree with you vehemently.

The thing I’m troubled by is the consistent message I’ve heard from the artists and writers since the late 1960s. It’s the same thing about nudity in the arts. Great artwork is the first excuse. I have seen more and more profanity in ‘popular’ books in recent years and even in a few magazines

Decade after decade, it just keeps getting worse and worse. Enough is enough.

At one time, Playboy played the intellectual card but was bought primarily for photos of naked human beings. That facade disappeared in the 1970s. How many Adult Bookstores carry copies of works by Shakespeare, Dickens or Tolstoy? How much great art and literature has been produced by the porn industry? How many young people allow themselves to be exploited by the media?

This is it. It’s time to turn our backs, as Christians, on the junk being presented to us.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Rascalking]

The thing I’m troubled by is the consistent message I’ve heard from the artists and writers since the late 1960s. It’s the same thing about nudity in the arts. Great artwork is the first excuse. I have seen more and more profanity in ‘popular’ books in recent years and even in a few magazines

Yeah, your right-There is a alot of rubbish out there. Instead of complaining, how about some CREATING?

There is also alot of beauty. Look at a Fredrick Hart sculpture. A Jackson Pollack painting.

I love to draw, love to write, love to play bass guitar-don’t complain about the rubbish out there. Ignore it, and embrace the beautiful.

 

[edwest2]

The Catholic Church does not maintain a list of forbidden books. In short, there is no short cut. Sorry. You have to make use of your own properly formed intellect and conscience to make those decisions for yourself.

A question to ask yourself is: Is this leading me to sin? I can read about people stealing cars, but that isn’t going to move me in the slightest to contemplate stealing a car. Thus, reading about such a thing would not be sinful for me. If, on the other hand, I am a recovering car thief and reading about such things makes me long for those car thieving days, then, at the very least, I would be putting myself in the near occassion of sin by reading such exploits. Not a wise move.

We need to be cautious and ever try to be honest with ourselves about our motives and how we are effected my the media we consume. But there is no obligation to reject everything that portrays sinful actions.

If you’re interested, I would encourage reading up on what the Church has to say about the Media. I have archived many of the relevant Church documents here: catechesisofthepopes.wikispaces.com/Media+and+the+Church

Thank you, Joe, for the documents.

The thing Catholics need to be aware of is that what was R ten years ago is different from what is Rated R today. Too many in the media have indeed “pushed the envelope” toward more graphic depictions of sexual situations and even more graphic violence. Even comic books today have “dark” characters. What were once heroes are moving into that grey area where there is more violence and less restraint.

In the 1960s, you would never hear a dirty word from a comedian. Today? Chris Rock. There is non-stop graphic sexual references from this guy. This is not the “new normal” and Catholics need to recognize that.

We only need to be honest with ourselves and sensitive to sin. And I know for a fact that things have been getting worse and worse. Catholics have standards that we should follow. However, every decade, all I heard from the media whenever someone complained was that the media in question is tame by today’s standards. Whose standards? What standards? There was a time when such things were written down. Television Stations had Standards and Practices Departments where there were rules. A lot of people don’t know that. They think if it’s being sold in a bookstore or shown on TV it is somehow OK. It generally is not.

Don’t be too quick to say this or that is OK without applying clear Christian principles to it.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Yeah, your right-There is a alot of rubbish out there. Instead of complaining, how about some CREATING?

There is also alot of beauty. Look at a Fredrick Hart sculpture. A Jackson Pollack painting.

I love to draw, love to write, love to play bass guitar-don’t complain about the rubbish out there. Ignore it, and embrace the beautiful.

No can do. I know for a fact that if no one complains, CEOs at media companies think that it’s OK. Case in point, a music video by a certain female singer got a lot of complaints. The sponsor dropped it. Of course, a few anti-censorship groups got up in arms but their complaints didn’t change anything. It’s happened in similar situations.

I’m still not quite sure what Jackson Pollack was up to but that’s another discussion.

God bless,
Ed