Continued learning in heaven?

[nespero]

I understand that heaven, to which we all aspire through Christ, is “communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed.” (from the Catechism). We can’t imagine the state of bliss and eternal happiness that would be but, from an earthly perspective, which is all we have, I wonder about the following: “In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation.” (also from the Catechism)

Specifically, I’m retired now but spent my life working in technical/scientific areas. My hope is that I can obtain the promises of Christ and reach heaven and, while there, worship Him directly and also continue to learn about God’s magnificent design of the universe and all of its laws. Since God’s will is reflected not only in our souls but in all of His creation, I wonder if that statement from the Catechism implies that we continue to learn while in heaven. I would find the learning process so much more enjoyable than a done deal where all at once God shows me how everything works . On the other hand, it would also be great if He opened my mind so that I could continue learning those things that are well beyond my meager faculties on earth.

My field is technical/scientific, but the same thing could be asked about music, philosophy, or any other human field of learning.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I understand that heaven, to which we all aspire through Christ, is “communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed.” (from the Catechism). We can’t imagine the state of bliss and eternal happiness that would be but, from an earthly perspective, which is all we have, I wonder about the following: “In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation.” (also from the Catechism)

Specifically, I’m retired now but spent my life working in technical/scientific areas. My hope is that I can obtain the promises of Christ and reach heaven and, while there, worship Him directly and also continue to learn about God’s magnificent design of the universe and all of its laws. Since God’s will is reflected not only in our souls but in all of His creation, I wonder if that statement from the Catechism implies that we continue to learn while in heaven. I would find the learning process so much more enjoyable than a done deal where all at once God shows me how everything works . On the other hand, it would also be great if He opened my mind so that I could continue learning those things that are well beyond my meager faculties on earth.

My field is technical/scientific, but the same thing could be asked about music, philosophy, or any other human field of learning.

I don’t know the answer, but there is so much more I , too, would have liked to learn, and to think we would have an eternity to do it, seems like, well, heaven.

 

[tonyrey]

I understand that heaven, to which we all aspire through Christ, is “communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed.” (from the Catechism). We can’t imagine the state of bliss and eternal happiness that would be but, from an earthly perspective, which is all we have, I wonder about the following: “In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation.” (also from the Catechism)

Specifically, I’m retired now but spent my life working in technical/scientific areas. My hope is that I can obtain the promises of Christ and reach heaven and, while there, worship Him directly and also continue to learn about God’s magnificent design of the universe and all of its laws. Since God’s will is reflected not only in our souls but in all of His creation, I wonder if that statement from the Catechism implies that we continue to learn while in heaven. I would find the learning process so much more enjoyable than a done deal where all at once God shows me how everything works . On the other hand, it would also be great if He opened my mind so that I could continue learning those things that are well beyond my meager faculties on earth.

My field is technical/scientific, but the same thing could be asked about music, philosophy, or any other human field of learning.

It is a mistake to think of being in heaven as a static existence because love is dynamic and creative. God does not change but He causes change! “In Him we live, move and have our being”. We continue to develop because although we never attain His absolute perfection Jesus told us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. As Robert Browning once wrote:

“A man’s reach should exceed his grasp or what’s a heaven for?”!

 

[Debra_C]

I think when we arrive in heaven (if, by the grace of God we do arrive) we will then know all that we wish to and more. Catholic teaching on angels is that were created pure spirit. They did not learn by degrees as we do as we grow. They were given full knowledge from their very beginning. I have understood it will be the same for us when we are born into eternal life. All that we do not know now will become clear.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I share your love for learning. I think Aquinas said that intellectual pleasures are the highest pleasures in man, and I believe it.

Of course, like other temporal pleasures it can lead to vice as well as virtue - “curiositas” or idle curiosity vs. “studiositas” or responsible study.

What we need to realize is that in God every desire will be completely fulfilled at its root, even (or especially) our intellectual hunger. Even if we don’t learn anything else in heaven, we will perceive Absolute Being to the maximum of our ability to do so, and so will be no less fulfilled and content than if we also learned finite things. That said, it seems as though we will enjoy finite pleasures in heaven as well, not to give us greater joy (which would be impossible) but to maximize the glory our happiness gives to God by enjoying a more multifaceted beatitude.

For my part, I’d like to learn the entire structure and history of the universe down to each particle and Plank time, and also to ride a mammoth, to fight and feast with St. Olaf Valhalla-style, and to run a farm and brewery in Medieval England for a few centuries. I have no idea whether I will be able to do any of these things in heaven, but I feel I would like to because I still cannot imagine the Beatific Vision, and so I still desire to be filled up with finite things. Once I (God willing) have the Beatific Vision though I will understand that none of these things will be able to increase my joy and contentment, since I already have God.

 

[nespero]

Thanks for all the great responses.

What we need to realize is that in God every desire will be completely fulfilled at its root, even (or especially) our intellectual hunger. Even if we don’t learn anything else in heaven, we will perceive Absolute Being to the maximum of our ability to do so, and so will be no less fulfilled and content than if we also learned finite things. That said, it seems as though we will enjoy finite pleasures in heaven as well, not to give us greater joy (which would be impossible) but to maximize the glory our happiness gives to God by enjoying a more multifaceted beatitude.

Beautifully said. My own field was mathematics, which I’ve always considered qualitatively different than the material sciences, in the same way as philosophy is different than physics.

Unlike the material sciences, mathematics deals with the ideal, the perfect, and the transcendental. I understand God’s transcendence over His creation in the same way as I understand irrational numbers being transcendental over rational numbers, and complex numbers over irrational numbers. I realize this is just an crude analogy, but mathematical transcendence, in my opinion, is the closest we will ever get in this world to understanding Divine Transcendence. I also find Godel’s Proof interesting from the perspective that even with our God-given mathematical intellect we can only go so far, and God’s transcendence is at a higher level than we can every hope to achieve even mathematically.

For my part, I’d like to learn the entire structure and history of the universe down to each particle and Plank time, and also to ride a mammoth, to fight and feast with St. Olaf Valhalla-style, and to run a farm and brewery in Medieval England for a few centuries. I have no idea whether I will be able to do any of these things in heaven, but I feel I would like to because I still cannot imagine the Beatific Vision, and so I still desire to be filled up with finite things. Once I (God willing) have the Beatific Vision though I will understand that none of these things will be able to increase my joy and contentment, since I already have God.

I’m with you on those enjoyments, well, maybe not St Olaf But it’s breathtaking to think of God’s knowledge encompassing the state of each and every particle in the Universe, not only at the present, but without respect to time. I’m sure that even in heaven we’ll be severely restricted on the degree to which we’re able to know these things, but I also believe we will be given knowledge compatible with our capacity and interest. In my case, I’d love to know the natural history of evolution, and be able to zoom around planets around other stars and observe their evolution. Sometimes I think of these as being selfish ends, since nature is only a framework for spiritual advancement towards the love of God. But I also see God’s handiwork when I observe nature.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I personally look forward (if God allows me to go go to Heaven—worthless sinner that I am) to learning everything I could not learn here on Earth because of sundry reasons. Would literally be a “second heaven.”

 

[tonyrey]

I share your love for learning. I think Aquinas said that intellectual pleasures are the highest pleasures in man, and I believe it.

Of course, like other temporal pleasures it can lead to vice as well as virtue - “curiositas” or idle curiosity vs. “studiositas” or responsible study.

What we need to realize is that in God every desire will be completely fulfilled at its root, even (or especially) our intellectual hunger. Even if we don’t learn anything else in heaven, we will perceive Absolute Being to the maximum of our ability to do so, and so will be no less fulfilled and content than if we also learned finite things. That said, it seems as though we will enjoy finite pleasures in heaven as well, not to give us greater joy (which would be impossible) but to maximize the glory our happiness gives to God by enjoying a more multifaceted beatitude.

For my part, I’d like to learn the entire structure and history of the universe down to each particle and Plank time, and also to ride a mammoth, to fight and feast with St. Olaf Valhalla-style, and to run a farm and brewery in Medieval England for a few centuries. I have no idea whether I will be able to do any of these things in heaven, but I feel I would like to because I still cannot imagine the Beatific Vision, and so I still desire to be filled up with finite things. Once I (God willing) have the Beatific Vision though I will understand that none of these things will be able to increase my joy and contentment, since I already have God.

I think the Beatific Vision will inspire us to be dynamic and creative rather than static and passive.

 

[DPMartin]

I understand that heaven, to which we all aspire through Christ, is “communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed.” (from the Catechism). We can’t imagine the state of bliss and eternal happiness that would be but, from an earthly perspective, which is all we have, I wonder about the following: “In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation.” (also from the Catechism)

Specifically, I’m retired now but spent my life working in technical/scientific areas. My hope is that I can obtain the promises of Christ and reach heaven and, while there, worship Him directly and also continue to learn about God’s magnificent design of the universe and all of its laws. Since God’s will is reflected not only in our souls but in all of His creation, I wonder if that statement from the Catechism implies that we continue to learn while in heaven. I would find the learning process so much more enjoyable than a done deal where all at once God shows me how everything works . On the other hand, it would also be great if He opened my mind so that I could continue learning those things that are well beyond my meager faculties on earth.

My field is technical/scientific, but the same thing could be asked about music, philosophy, or any other human field of learning.

nespero

What you might find interesting is the Book of Enoch. It is said that the Ethiopian version is most accurate. It is said that the Rabbis considered it only for those with Wisdom.

 

[RainbowNight]

What about those in hell, are they capable of learning too?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

To clarify, obviously the human intellect will probably remain too limited to understand everything about the universe. My intention was to show a sort of limitless desire for knowledge, leaving how much is possible and proper to God. Also obviously any fighting with St. Olaf would be without pain or real damage to the body, though I wonder if the special character of the resurrected body were to allow things like temporary, unbloodly, voluntary dismemberment, just for fun so we can play at being Viking shades. I guess probably not.

“What about those in hell, are they capable of learning too?”

Certainly their initial experience of hell would be something of a learning experience I would think. A nasty one. Beyond that, I for one could only blindly speculate. One thing’s for sure, any learning would not be able to make up for the suffering of hell any more than it could add to the joy of heaven.

 

[RainbowNight]

Certainly their initial experience of hell would be something of a learning experience I would think. A nasty one. Beyond that, I for one could only blindly speculate. One thing’s for sure, any learning would not be able to make up for the suffering of hell any more than it could add to the joy of heaven.

Why is it eternal, do you think anyone deserve eternal suffering? If free will concept can be applied on earth and in heaven, why not in hell?
How can a person be happy in heaven knowing that those who love are in a place of torture, even how can anyone in heaven live in joy while knowing that there is souls in hell?

 

[TevereNauta]

Those condemned to hell have absolutely and definitively chosen to reject God and His Will in this life, without the slightest exception. Therefore, it is right and just they are cast into hell for their, and the ultimate, transgression. I imagine they learn a thing or two, but those aren’t lessons I’d be interested in. If anyone here has seen the movie Event Horizon, I think that pretty much encapsulates it. To the other point, from my limited theological knowledge, it would be a violation of divine justice for those who mocked God in this world to, after realizing their error, being able to ‘learn their way out’ after the particular and final judgments. But, I am not God, and I do not presume to know the minds of others. In a way, this topic might start misadjusting this thread though, so you might want to start a new one Rainbow.

Back to the OP, I cannot imagine an all-loving, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God such as we have stopping our learning process once we—Lord willing—enter the Father’s House. Aside from the miracle of Christ, who I long to meet, I agree with the other posters that there is something, well, mathematically perfect, transcendental, about Heaven. The closest I can come to picturing my expression would be ‘sublime symmetrically’, for some reason I always identify God with perfect symmetry and dimensions, and I hope and pray it is within that context the Blessed may continue to learn.

 

[RainbowNight]

Those condemned to hell have absolutely and definitively chosen to reject God and His Will in this life, without the slightest exception. Therefore, it is right and just they are cast into hell for their, and the ultimate, transgression. I imagine they learn a thing or two, but those aren’t lessons I’d be interested in. If anyone here has seen the movie Event Horizon, I think that pretty much encapsulates it. To the other point, from my limited theological knowledge, it would be a violation of divine justice for those who mocked God in this world to, after realizing their error, being able to ‘learn their way out’ after the particular and final judgments. But, I am not God, and I do not presume to know the minds of others. In a way, this topic might start misadjusting this thread though, so you might want to start a new one Rainbow.

Back to the OP, I cannot imagine an all-loving, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God such as we have stopping our learning process once we—Lord willing—enter the Father’s House. Aside from the miracle of Christ, who I long to meet, I agree with the other posters that there is something, well, mathematically perfect, transcendental, about Heaven. The closest I can come to picturing my expression would be ‘sublime symmetrically’, for some reason I always identify God with perfect symmetry and dimensions, and I hope and pray it is within that context the Blessed may continue to learn.

Hi TevereNauta, you opened a good argument for discussion.
I don’t see how much free will concept can be applied here on Earth, because not everything is clear to make a sincere choice, you mentioned about those who reject God and his will and choose their destiny, but: What is God, where is God and what is his will?!
Lot’s of questions related to this topic, on this point, we can see millions of ideologies and doctines wondering the reason of our existence.
Not everything is clear for everyone to make a choice of rejecting or accepting God, without the convictions that the “thing” under discussion is real.
An example for this, according to the bible, Lucifer knew God is real and rejected him ( a true free will is applied here) while on earth our choices are not based on the absolute knowledge of the reality of God and his existence.
If free will is so much important in the eyes of God, why there is no other chance after death to use our free will?
An example would clear it: Why a soul that repents 2 minutes before death is forgiven, but not the one that repents 2 minutes after death while knowing the truth?
The soul that repented 2 minutes before death can be influenced by the fear of the unknown, medicaments, etc… Where free will could not be based on a full conscience…
Why everything is limited with our earthly time before death?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I would suggest that out of respect for the original question the debate about hell be taken to another thread.

 

[RainbowNight]

I would suggest that out of respect for the original question the debate about hell be taken to another thread.

Sure…

 

[tonyrey]

Why is it eternal, do you think anyone deserve eternal suffering? If free will concept can be applied on earth and in heaven, why not in hell?

It can but the lust for power is overpowering - as we know from our experience in this world!

How can a person be happy in heaven knowing that those who love are in a place of torture, even how can anyone in heaven live in joy while knowing that there is souls in hell?

Is your joy affected when you know that some one rejects you and never wants to be with you again? It may sadden you at first but eventually you realise it is absurd to let evil affect your life for all eternity when you surrounded by those who love you…

 

[greylorn]

I understand that heaven, to which we all aspire through Christ, is “communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed.” (from the Catechism). We can’t imagine the state of bliss and eternal happiness that would be but, from an earthly perspective, which is all we have, I wonder about the following: “In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation.” (also from the Catechism)

Specifically, I’m retired now but spent my life working in technical/scientific areas. My hope is that I can obtain the promises of Christ and reach heaven and, while there, worship Him directly and also continue to learn about God’s magnificent design of the universe and all of its laws. Since God’s will is reflected not only in our souls but in all of His creation, I wonder if that statement from the Catechism implies that we continue to learn while in heaven. I would find the learning process so much more enjoyable than a done deal where all at once God shows me how everything works . On the other hand, it would also be great if He opened my mind so that I could continue learning those things that are well beyond my meager faculties on earth.

My field is technical/scientific, but the same thing could be asked about music, philosophy, or any other human field of learning.

Consider something entirely different, outside the box containing your question. Coming from a physics/astronomy/engineering background, I’ll risk this guess about you. It is not simply the learning of things scientific which you enjoy, but even more so, the applications of your knowledge to the solution of problems, as well as the sharing of your knowledge. In that context, what if God meets you at the pearly gates, drapes one spiritual arm over your recently transmogrified shoulder, and says something like,

“Hey, there Nespy! Good to see you, and I want you to know that you are exactly the kind of fellow I’m looking for, someone smart enough to have figured out aforehand that I’ve listened to plenty enough harp strumming. Did you happen to read, Captain Stormfield’s Trip to Heaven? Oh, well— no matter. Just wanted you to know how we all appreciate those who show up and can just skip the re-indoctrination program. No one here wants to teach it anymore, especially to the billions of folks coming in after training in earthly religions. They are so insistent on having things being the way they were taught. The Muslims are the most tiresome, always whining, demanding dinner and virgins. So once again, thanks for coming prepared.”

Of course by this time your face is lit up like a glow worm, and you are wondering which advanced science class you’ll be assigned to first, when God continues. “That was the good news. Now looking at your chart, I see that you’ve studied all kinds of bugs, flying, crawling, swimming, whatever. Exemplary! Now as it turns out, we don’t have any bugs here. However, there’s a big warm moon orbiting a planet your astronomers would call Aldebaran XVII if they knew about it, and we’re already in Stage 4 of life engineering there. Our guys need bugs! Plenty of bugs, but the right kind. Bugs that fit into the environment, do some planet reformation, help spread DNA around, etc. Does that sound like your kind of job?”

God pauses for your reply, but all you can muster is a sorry, “Bug— I mean but, God! I only know what bugs look like and what some of them do. I don’t know how to actually make one!”

“Yes, of course I know,” God replies soothingly. “So you’re not ready for the project just yet. Not a problem, since the last job timeline came in at an estimated 30 million years, assuming the space junk managers can deal with a nasty incoming asteroid. So, not to worry! We’ve got a great little training program that’ll be perfect for you.”

Your smile is back, and you find yourself kind of moving sideways to see through the doorway that God seems to be deliberately blocking. as you say, “Great! Where do I sign up?”

“We’re way ahead of you! There’s a perfect niche already reserved. Michael Behe’s wife is just entering her third trimester, 13th offspring, and we’ve been kind of holding that spot. Don’t know if you’ve heard of Behe. A Catholic microbiologist with just the right attitude, written a couple of books on “Intelligent Design.” He’s figuring things out. Good man, great mind, and a perfect dad for you! You’ll be able to learn from him how critters are built from the inside out.”

“But, but, I don’t want to go back to the USA. The evil capitalists and Republicans are taking over!”

“Ah, yes. I see that you voted for Obama. Nonetheless, there are excellent options. You’ll have to master quantum electrodynamics before you get to your Aldebaran job anyway. Insect brains use it all the time. There’s an excellent little physics program opening up in a comfy North Korean enclave— used to be a gulag, but they’ve installed a toilet recently. We could fill a few other gaps in your education by sending you back as a cute little girl with some guitar-playing talent to give you an edge, maybe even catch the personal attention of their, uh, ‘great leader’…”

 

[4Horsemen]

I think the Beatific Vision will inspire us to be dynamic and creative rather than static and passive.

In what way would we be “dynamic and creative?”

First of all, Heaven is union with God – the Beatific Vision. That doesn’t preclude “sightseeing” and communicating with other souls, intellect to intellect, whom we have known on earth. As far as learning new things, for the most part we will have infused knowledge, yet be open to new understandings of this knowledge. The saints will be known by us even though we’ve never seen them on earth. We will probably have bilocation, or tri-, or more. Perhaps we will visit all material objects, such as planets and suns and comets and more with our spirits and, eventually, with glorified bodies as Jesus and His heavenly Mother have.

Daydreaming? Maybe. More than anything, we will not lose recollection in God for our intellects will be in union with Him with love to love. When a feeling of love happens on earth, we never want it to end. In heaven it will never end.

Maybe that’s what you mean by “dynamic and creative.” No?

 

[nespero]

Consider something entirely different, outside the box containing your question. Coming from a physics/astronomy/engineering background, I’ll risk this guess about you. It is not simply the learning of things scientific which you enjoy, but even more so, the applications of your knowledge to the solution of problems, as well as the sharing of your knowledge. In that context, what if God meets you at the pearly gates, drapes one spiritual arm over your recently transmogrified shoulder, and says something like,

“Hey, there Nespy! Good to see you, and I want you to know that you are exactly the kind of fellow I’m looking for, someone smart enough to have figured out aforehand that I’ve listened to plenty enough harp strumming. Did you happen to read, Captain Stormfield’s Trip to Heaven? Oh, well— no matter. Just wanted you to know how we all appreciate those who show up and can just skip the re-indoctrination program. No one here wants to teach it anymore, especially to the billions of folks coming in after training in earthly religions. They are so insistent on having things being the way they were taught. The Muslims are the most tiresome, always whining, demanding dinner and virgins. So once again, thanks for coming prepared.”

Of course by this time your face is lit up like a glow worm, and you are wondering which advanced science class you’ll be assigned to first, when God continues. “That was the good news. Now looking at your chart, I see that you’ve studied all kinds of bugs, flying, crawling, swimming, whatever. Exemplary! Now as it turns out, we don’t have any bugs here. However, there’s a big warm moon orbiting a planet your astronomers would call Aldebaran XVII if they knew about it, and we’re already in Stage 4 of life engineering there. Our guys need bugs! Plenty of bugs, but the right kind. Bugs that fit into the environment, do some planet reformation, help spread DNA around, etc. Does that sound like your kind of job?”

God pauses for your reply, but all you can muster is a sorry, “Bug— I mean but, God! I only know what bugs look like and what some of them do. I don’t know how to actually make one!”

“Yes, of course I know,” God replies soothingly. “So you’re not ready for the project just yet. Not a problem, since the last job timeline came in at an estimated 30 million years, assuming the space junk managers can deal with a nasty incoming asteroid. So, not to worry! We’ve got a great little training program that’ll be perfect for you.”

Your smile is back, and you find yourself kind of moving sideways to see through the doorway that God seems to be deliberately blocking. as you say, “Great! Where do I sign up?”

“We’re way ahead of you! There’s a perfect niche already reserved. Michael Behe’s wife is just entering her third trimester, 13th offspring, and we’ve been kind of holding that spot. Don’t know if you’ve heard of Behe. A Catholic microbiologist with just the right attitude, written a couple of books on “Intelligent Design.” He’s figuring things out. Good man, great mind, and a perfect dad for you! You’ll be able to learn from him how critters are built from the inside out.”

“But, but, I don’t want to go back to the USA. The evil capitalists and Republicans are taking over!”

“Ah, yes. I see that you voted for Obama. Nonetheless, there are excellent options. You’ll have to master quantum electrodynamics before you get to your Aldebaran job anyway. Insect brains use it all the time. There’s an excellent little physics program opening up in a comfy North Korean enclave— used to be a gulag, but they’ve installed a toilet recently. We could fill a few other gaps in your education by sending you back as a cute little girl with some guitar-playing talent to give you an edge, maybe even catch the personal attention of their, uh, ‘great leader’…”

Greylorn, you nailed it. That’s precisely my hope for continuing education in heaven. In fact, I enjoyed your tale so much that I felt guilty, and thought, no, it can’t be that way because it would put too much focus on my own pleasure versus worship of God. I do believe that even if “all” heaven consisted of was playing harps to God’s magnificence, that act would somehow place our spirit in a holy ecstasy from which there would be no lack of delight.

Having said that, from a limited human perspective, your description puts substance into the type of experience that I would hope for. As far as Behe, I consider him one of the most original and creative thinkers today in science, in the mold of Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Godel, and all who dared think outside of the box and pursue science for the sake of advancing knowledge rather than solely advancing existing paradigms. And, like Galileo, he’s being made to pay a personal price for daring to expand our horizons. I sent him a note to that effect a couple of years ago to which he responded in all humility.

Oh, about the evil capitalists and Republicans, “forgive them for they know not what they do.”

Peace